Can the next champion / "reworked" champion not have 850 mobility spells and a displacement ?

Lets have shrex·Jul 6, 2018·66 votes·16,189 views

dash dash displacement dash stealth dash displacement cc displacement all over the map dash displacement slow roam all over the map displacement slow execute AoE stun perma dash displacement dash dash dash displacement dash stun displacement dash dash dash dash displacement charm displacement stun dash dash dash dash dash dash walk through walls "displacement"

Like seriously can't we have a "normal" kit such as (even tho he has one too but not easy to land ?) Literally every single champ you released in the last 2 years have the same things in his kit. Stop trying to make "LC$ playz", it's frustrating to play against and just too forgiving for monkeys having the tools to do things by pure chance not because they're good, but because "my champ can do dis"

122 Comments

Step Sis LuxJul 6, 201859 votes

Next is akali so be prepared for crazy mobility, i hope nunu gonna be still immobile

Lets have shrexJul 6, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Step Sis Lux,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cl8Z2KO5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-06T17:12:06.637+0000)

Next is akali so be prepared for crazy mobility, i hope nunu gonna be still immobile

You have my bet she's going to have extra dashes and a displacement. It's fucking hilarious when I jokingly predicted about Aatrox having a spammable displacement and a dash with at least charges if not spammable and look at the result.

Get Ogre HereJul 6, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Step Sis Lux,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cl8Z2KO5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-06T17:12:06.637+0000)

Next is akali so be prepared for crazy mobility, i hope nunu gonna be still immobile

Nunu's gonna have his E be the snowball summoner spell, but he doesn't have to hit it to instantly dash. : ^)

RiyotousJul 6, 201818 votes

[{quoted}](name=Step Sis Lux,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cl8Z2KO5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-06T17:12:06.637+0000)

Next is akali so be prepared for crazy mobility, i hope nunu gonna be still immobile

Even better that CertainlyT is reworking her, aka the creator of Zoe Kalista Yasuo Thresh Darius Graves Warwick . Bless <3

SalettyJul 6, 20183 votes

Fire that guy i hate all those champions. Zoe had too much dmg for a long time. Kalista had too much dmg for a long time. Yasuo had too much dmg for a long time. Tresh is tresh. Cant play against Darius if you dont have something like a Morgana in your team to stun him. Graves has too much dmg, Warwick is over 50% since Season 5 or something like that.

CodeNightFallJul 6, 201810 votes

Actually Warwick is one of the best reworks ever. Thresh has an amazing kit too

koshkyraJul 7, 201810 votes

Thresh is an example of "fun for the player but hell for the opponent"

UnboundHadesJul 7, 20183 votes

His e is the main problem because he can just walk at you without risking his q missing while someone like blitz can also do that but needs to be in melee range

Somebody Love MeJul 7, 20184 votes

I hate playing against WW but his kit is pretty solid. Though he still falls under 2.5 gapclosers AND two forms of hard cc

YumaS2AstralJul 7, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Actually Warwick is one of the best reworks ever. Thresh has an amazing kit too

He didn't made the Warwick rework alone, also he complained about how much he got limited during Warwick's development.

Also, Warwick has actually been overtuned for months, so it is not like he has never been a balance issue.

Josh SandJul 6, 201821 votes

I think Riot has boxed itself into a corner with the mobility creep. Extreme mobility is now an expectation for most players, and if Riot releases a champ without a dash, odds are it will not be nearly as popular as most new champions typically are.

I mean, fucking Urgot got a dash. A heavily armored crab man turret with shotguns for legs has a dashing move... If someone like Urgot has a dash, I don't know how you make the case for literally anyone else on the roster not having some kind of mobility spell.

NyarlathοtepJul 6, 201811 votes

To be fair, both his and aatrox dash exist solely to help their kits.

DrCyanideJul 6, 20184 votes

Name a dash that doesn't help someone's kit.

Chembaron YamadaJul 7, 20183 votes

Like there weren't even more ridiculous examples in the very early stages of the game. Malphite This guy is a literal living mountain and he has a dash.

FutureCreatorJul 7, 20182 votes

Well it's on his R and it has a giant cooldown. It's his ultimate move - [U N S T O P P A B L E F O R C E]

DoozkuJul 7, 20183 votes

Technically every champion on the roster has either range, mobility, cc, or a combination of those. If you don't have a champion with any of those, you get Mordekaiser which has literally zero agency and relies 100% on his team to be able to do anything. (even then, he technically has a speedup on his W even if it is pretty much useless in any situation.)

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 6, 201813 votes

dash dash displacement dash stealth dash

.... he has 1 dash idk why you gotta push so hard on the dash in his kit. He's an assassin ofcourse he has a mobility tool. He also has to use it to litterally jump into your team as if he's shen and can't use it as escape.

I'll agree that there's waaaaay too much mobility in the game, idk why i even try to play jinx anymore with everyone just jumping me but pyke is honestly fine. one of the few assassins i've enjoyed playing as and don't really mind playing against.

BestPudgeNAJul 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cl8Z2KO5,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-07-06T19:02:47.362+0000)

.... Pyke has 1 dash idk why you gotta push so hard on the dash in his kit. gainst.

Pyke has a dash on his E, A blink(better dash) on his R and a sprint on his W. He has 2 dashes one of which can reset and a 3rd pseudo dash.

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 8, 20181 votes

srsly, his r only dashes when he uses it on someone.

BestPudgeNAJul 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cl8Z2KO5,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2018-07-08T15:40:25.880+0000)

srsly, his r only dashes when he uses it on someone.

Is Yasuo E not a dash because he has to use it one a minion or someone? cmonBruh

DecritJul 6, 20189 votes

I know it is fruitless to have an actual conversation here, but oh well...

Pike is an assassin/support. Of course he has mobility, else he could not do his job. Of couse he has displacement as a form of CC, else he could not do his job. In any case he has much less mobility than many other assassins ( or at least it's more telegraphed ) in excange of camou%%%e, and the CC is slow to execute and easy to predict other than being his main tool.

Galio has two mobility skills, one that is arguabily not exactly useful for engaging since it's very slow and even pulls you back and one that is a global engagement tool. As a sort of tank/support ( at least ideally ) he needs mobility skills to get on the team, and displacements as a mean to have an impact. Arguabily displacements aren't much sensful to have if you can't use them to intercept other dashes but it is fine for him to have em too.

Taliyah is a mage, her only CC is one that allows her to disengage from enemies. That allows her to block champions that dash to her, since all her kit is sorta anti-mobility. Also yes, she roams, but hardly any other mage has such focus on roaming other than her so i don't see where is the deal.

Urgoth has a small displacement in form of an abismally small dash in order to have him some chance to actually reposition and use his kneeshots. Said displacement it's also a tool to force use the use of said kneeshots since the enemy won't walk there out of its volition. A good Urgoth can use most of kneeshots without displacement and still use it when necessary as a mean to force others, which i don't think it's any bad. Als execute is useful for metas where tanks are oppressive. Laugh if you want, but spaghetti fight meta and games over 40 minutes were a thing.

"AoE" stun is weird on her kit and i agree, but why should that be a point on her post? Also, her dash has benn there since when she has been released and was taken in high consideration while reworking her.

I don't like Yasuo's displacement as a small tornado, but otherwise that is necessary for him to work. He was born as a sort of skirmisher bruiser ( which between patches has been evolved to be a lot of different things, included assassin ) so mobility for him was necessary, as well as damage denial and cc.

Ornn is a tank, so yet again he needs some small consideration as a form of mobility. Could use some stuns instead of knockups, but for being a tank it could be considered fine for him to have em.

Agree on Aatrox that displacement as there are for his Q are a bit off for me, but he needs mobility. He is not a pure tank and even a juggernaut needs some small repositioning. His dashes are abismally short and ar eused on conflict with his Q.

I don't see where is the problem for Rakan to have a charm, but he has a truly lot of dashes. But again, he is a support and usually supports don't get those.

Kayn displacement is only present in the bruiser/tank form, Rhaast, and is used to complement his role. he has many dashes indeed, but because yet again he is an assassin/skirmisher and assassins/skirmisher need those.

Also, i add that LoL Has already a whole lot of immobile champions - all the crapton of champions from season 1-3 have shallow spells that don't use dashes. Also, there have been champions that already had dashes and mobility for the same reasons stated as above. Why newer ones whould not have them?

Sometimes they pander too much on small dashes to get throught walls. Sometimes they forgot they can have usual CCs rather knockups or displacements and have them reserved to use them for tanks and deny mobility. But i don't see why we sould not have again characters with dashes, especially since the next character to be reworked is the synonim of "dashes" in league since season 2. This is a crapload of list that has no sense whatsoever.

OleandervineJul 6, 20188 votes

Why is Yasuo here? He's like 4 years old now. He is by no means recent.

Lets have shrexJul 6, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Why is Yasuo here? He's like 4 years old now. He is by no means recent.

He's the beginning of the downside of champions design.

OleandervineJul 6, 201815 votes

Not really, there have been tons of great champion designs after him, such as: AurelionSol Evelynn Illaoi Gangplank Ivern Bard Poppy Sion Tristana Taric Swain Soraka Velkoz Yorick

Lets have shrexJul 6, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Not really, there have been tons of great champion designs after him, such as:

There are only 3 new champions (others are rework, can you fucking imagine Soraka with a dash ? -_-) in this list and they're part of what I'm talking about, good design (aside of Bard that deals way too much damage)

OleandervineJul 6, 201810 votes

There are 5 new champions in this list that came after Yasuo, Aurelion, Illaoi, Ivern, Bard, and Vel'Koz. The remainder are reworks. I also forgot to add Braum Jhin TahmKench and Xayah as great champion designs. Regardless, VGUs count because they're still champion designs that are new and generally created from scratch.

RainXBladeJul 7, 20181 votes

is GREAT champion design

LOL

SooFr0styJul 7, 20185 votes

She has an amazing design.

Low range, not pure auto attack based Has her only survivability spell as her ultimate Is practically immobile

My Waifu VanillaJul 7, 20182 votes

bUt hEr mOvEmENt SpEeD aNd uLtiMaTE

YumaS2AstralJul 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not really, there have been tons of great champion designs after him, such as:

Soraka isn't a great champion design by any means

Also, Swain in terms of gameplay was great, but in terms of visuals, they killed old Swain and replaced him with a clone of Lucius Malfoy

OleandervineJul 9, 20181 votes

Soraka's current kit is well designed, and it achieves the healer fantasy without making her overbearing.

YumaS2AstralJul 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Soraka's current kit is well designed, and it achieves the healer fantasy without making her overbearing.

Soraka is currently only relevant because she isn't actually maxing her heal in lane, she is maxing either Q or E, and playing as a poke mage, which while effective and good, it is not what she is supposed to be doing.

The problem is that Riot is trying to design Soraka around being a heal bot, but that will never be balanceable. Remember when Soraka's heal was stronger? When her R used to remove Grievous Wounds? When she actually was a dedicated healer? She was one of the most obnoxious champions to play against.

There are many supports with heals, but none of them are completely focused around the healing mechanic. The healing is only a part of their kit. They are less of a headache to balance due to that reason.

Soraka will probably need a new identity in the future.

Evil Bisex PlantJul 7, 20181 votes

How did Poppy get there? Her every spell except Q has a displacement attached to it and has a dash, that's like everything OP is complaining about, you can't use her as an example to prove him otherwise.

OleandervineJul 9, 20181 votes

I was discussing good design, not displacement. Considering that Poppy is a tank, she's supposed to have displacement and CC. You cannot have a tank without it.

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 9, 20181 votes

she's a fighter...

OleandervineJul 9, 20181 votes

In what world is Poppy considered a fighter? She has a slow, she's encouraged to build defenses, and she has an engage/knockback and a knock up/return to sender. Her entire kit revolves around keeping opponents controlled and in particular places, while also protecting allies. She's 100% a tank.

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 9, 20181 votes

her Q has a double 90% ad scaling, yes she's got an engage, like plenty of other fighters you gotta get on your target in some way. She has innate defenses that help her deal with the Resistances she'll only build after Triforce and possibly Black cleaver if the game isn't going to shit. She's got a shit ton of sticking power too. No squishy is running away from you, dash or not.

You can play her full tank all you want, but you're not playing poppy then. you're playing watered down poppy.

OleandervineJul 9, 20181 votes

Poppy's high scaling isn't to encourage to build AD, it's so that a little smattering of AD you do build on top of your tank build can go a long way.

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 9, 20181 votes

so she's a tanky champ that deals damage. so a fighter?.

Evil Bisex PlantJul 9, 20181 votes

She's more like a mobile juggernaut with fuckton of CC. Good she's kept unplayable.

Evil Bisex PlantJul 9, 20181 votes

We're discussing champion designs the whole time, OP said Yasuo was the start of the downslide of champion design (a displacement and dash on every ability) because he's exactly like that. You contradicted it with the claim there has been good designs and mentioned Poppy as one of them, but you didn't disagree with his perception of a bad design. That's why I asked.

And yes, you know who's perfectly healthy tank? Sion. And he has 2 knockups (one of them is his ult) and no dash. Poppy has double his amount of CC and a dash. That's exactly what we're discussing. Poppy is one of the later overloaded designs and were a problem for a long time until she got gutted and never has been played since - the exact scenario with every new overloaded champ.

OleandervineJul 9, 20181 votes

I'm not following. Poppy has a knockback/stun in E and a knockup/away in R. That's the exact same amount of CC that Sion has - a slow/AOE knock up in Q and a long dash followed by a stun in R. Poppy's CC is locked in 2 abilities, but it has conditions, but it by no means "double his amount of CC."

Evil Bisex PlantJul 10, 20181 votes

Her W knocks you up (or deletes mobility abilities from your kit, choose, a CC in both cases) and it's AoE besides her ult which is too. + All of that is instant and she can move during casting - unlike Sion. That's basically double his CC - little exagaration on my side but that's irrelevant for the point because the point is that her kit is just nuts Sion on today's champion standarts, has the exact problems OP is talking about and is by no means a good kit design.

Again, Sion used as a comparison because he's a perfectly healthy champ.

KaiokoJul 6, 20188 votes

Hurray for the cherry picking. While there has been an increased in mobility those are by no means all the champs that got reworked/released in the past 2 years.

Dr BirdieJul 6, 20182 votes

Plus listing Aatrox, when everyone is complaining about how immobile he is.

Void KaijuJul 6, 20184 votes

5 of the champs listed have dashes with long cooldowns or that are very short. One of the champions you listed has no dash. Aatrox displacement is on a huge delay and can be easily avoided. Gnar has his on his ult and it can also be avoided. Ornns can be avoided easily. Same with urgot and Pyke.

Dashes aren't inherently bad. In many of these kits they're even healthy to have in there and are used as a part of a combo or crucial enabler. Urgot, aatrox, gnar, ornn, galio are by no means champions people would describe as mobile. You're super cherry picking here. Most of these champions aren't even meta in LCS unless they're overtuned, so your lc$ argument falls flat. None of these champions have the tools to do things by pure chance.in fact, the things they do are generally less reliable than many of their competitors. You losing to them isn't them getting lucky. Its you not playing better than they did, or counterpicking yourself.

Risen29Jul 7, 20183 votes

I think the straw that broke the camels back on LoL's ridiculous mobility creep was when they couldn't even rework freakin urgot without putting a dash on him. Since when can that giant lumbering pile of blob dash? He's also a juggernaut, which aren't suppose to have mobility. If they were that hellbent on giving him mobility they should have given him a mini-teleport as homage to his old design.

It's boring design when everyone has easy mobility. Smart positional play use to be fun.

One of the things I like about Dota 2 is that mobility creep never really happened.

Granted, everyone has access to a blink or a dash by buying certain items, but overall it results in there being a lot less mobility creep issues in the game because you are making tradoffs by sacrificing your gold for those items. So you don't see it as much, you don't see it early game at all, and when you do see it you know they sacrificed something else to get it.