This game has turned into "doesn't matter what you picked, if your enemy picked something better"

Lets have shrex·Jul 2, 2018·108 votes·19,383 views

I fucking hate beind ahead, but who cares ? 0/10 finally got and now roll on everyone Who cares ? I shut down the early game, but now he got and a behind him and they just 2v4

Who cares ? You're a mage midlane but the enemy got and even if you have you can't 1v1 him anymore because "jUsT bUy zhoNYa" Venting post, I just hate how this game turned into.

Oh and also, I don't even build armor anymore since every single AD champions is allowed to either deal true damage or %hp magic damage (Edit : My accounts keep getting banned for lame jokes, I've been playing since s3)

95 Comments

MarshbouyJul 2, 201848 votes

Doesn't matter if you get jungle control because your top laner is a bonobo and fed the illaoi. Now she can 1v3 and you don't have enough CC to permanently lock her down.

chipndip1Jul 2, 20183 votes

Why not draft more cc when you see an Illaoi?

MarshbouyJul 2, 201818 votes

that's dumb. Let me list the reasons why.

My teammates and I have already picked champions so we are unable to counterpick.
Being forced to counterpick a champion to not get completely stomped by them shouldn't be considered healthy gameplay.
Getting people to have a reasonable team comp, let alone counterpick a specific champion in draft is a total crapshoot. 5 ads, 0 tanks, no good front line, 0 reliable CC happen all the time because people will pick what they want to play.
Can't see enemy picks in Blind.

chipndip1Jul 2, 20185 votes

Well there's your real problem: You're playing blind pick and caring about the outcome.

MarshbouyJul 2, 20186 votes

How did I know you were going to cherrypick one out of the four reasons I listed?

Can you please respond to my other valid points? All three of those still apply in draft.

chipndip1Jul 2, 20182 votes

Doesn't matter: It's a blind pick game. Who cares after that? People play blind pick to goof off and meme out with friends, not to ACTUALLY care about League of Legends. Hell, it's kind of the same for normal draft, but blind pick is for straight chimping out.

Regardless, this is a strategic game. There's going to be match-ups that are favorable or unfavorable, and sometimes people feed their asses off and it's up to you and your other members to properly shut them down before the game spirals out of control. Shit happens, but who cares? It's blind pick.

HalcyonDwellerJul 3, 20182 votes

Those reasons could have been given together or separately. They don't all have to apply at the same time. 1, 2 & 3 all apply to game modes besides blind pick.

Come on dude don't cherry pick, you're better than that.

If you keep cherry picking you're just going to look like the type of jerk who doesn't care about an enriching discussion and who just wants to seem superior over others.

chipndip1Jul 3, 20181 votes

The reason why I added the second paragraph was so you'd realize that, beyond that, counter-picking still NEEDS to exist in a strategic game. However, why give stock or merit to a blind pick game? It's not a superiority thing. It's just logic. People give 0 shits even in ranked games sometimes...so imagine how much they DON'T give a shit in a blind pick game.

HalcyonDwellerJul 3, 20181 votes

Next time lead with that, instead of an oversimplification...

{quoted}

Why not draft more cc when you see an Illaoi?

...that you then defended by deflecting and cherry picking when people rightfully shot it down for being oversimplified...

{quoted}

Well there's your real problem: You're playing blind pick and caring about the outcome.

chipndip1Jul 3, 20181 votes

If I see something like a Yi, a Tryndamere, or an Illaoi...yes, you SHOULD draft more cc.
Well, if he's in blind pick, he can't counter-pick. Also, if he's in blind pick, he has a bunch of doods gooning around on his team instead of people that are trying to win the game.

HalcyonDwellerJul 3, 20182 votes

he already explained that it's possible to draft less cc and then for Yi, Trynd or Illaoi to be last picked by the enemy team.
IF he's in blind pick. But this can happen outside of blind pick too. Let go of the blind pick point dude, it's losing ground, and it's not helping your argument.
I'm all for strategy and for there being some hard to counter things, but having cc can't be the only effective counterplay to a character. If a character is capable of wrecking everybody else so long as those other people don't have CC to deal with them then there's a problem there.

NaturesMayhemJul 2, 201812 votes

That's not a reason. You shouldn't have to counter pick a champion with your team just to defeat them.

chipndip1Jul 2, 20184 votes

"You shouldn't HAVE to switch from your Charizard to beat my Blastoise"

And, funny thing is, you don't always have to, but if you're gonna take the hard way through, don't complain when it's hard to do.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 3, 201812 votes

"I'm gonna compare a game that is litterally glorified rock paper scissors against a game that has tons of micro options and isn't just a text based strategy game!"

3TWarriorJul 3, 20181 votes

there are so many things wrong with this assumption I don't want to type it out again

rock paper scissors...with 18 different choices, multiple types per pokemon, over 800 choices with some actually being stronger in previous evolutions than the full evolution...4 move slots with at least 20 moves each for every team member chosen

let me calculate that for you and i'll get back to you

okay, the answer is...it's so freaking small of meeting the same team with the same build of moves that the calculator won't do it and the answer is literally 1 divided by .000000000000000021154219085495427914930234082313 or 15-illionths

actually my math was wrong as I only did 4pokemon, so i'll post a revised number with the 100 meta

that number gets a little better if you cut it to 100 or 200 meta picks instead of the entire roster, but i'm giving it to you straight here...and that's just the number for moves

here's the 100 meta...

1 divided by .000000000000000010019986444935916590434029435979

huh, seems a lot more complicated than rock beats scissors beats paper beats rock, don't it?

let's divide the number of viable pokemon by 10 so that there are no overlapping weaknesses

here's the result

1 divided by .00000000005687785185549203437060334205157 , it cut a good 4 0's off, but it's still a huge number

i'll cut it down to more realistic with maybe say 8 moves per pokemon that are "best"

1 in 254015999.99999997 , 254 million different throws...

Sp33d Zer0Jul 3, 20188 votes

I did Pokemon competitively all through high school and some college.

It's literally rock paper scissors. You sit there doing nothing other than mind gaming your opponent trying to throw what beats what they throw.

Yes there are multiple types, yea there are numerous different moves, but at the end of day it's a glorified rock paper scissors with some bells and whistles.

3TWarriorJul 3, 20181 votes

yep, because having 254 million different combinations to throw at your opponent sure screams rock paper scissors

i'm just going to quote my last post to this

actually, pokemon is INCREDIBLY complicated with:

numbers affecting a pokemon's battle potential

a strategy's ease of use compared to victory percentage

single and dual-typing coming into play,

type changes,

abilities that impede strategies,

non-meta picks that can still be viable,

battlefield hazards,

battle weather effects,

in the real game, a pokemon's happiness stat even makes a difference (toned down in competitive for being OP amid a new system that would have to be figured out by the players),

tons of game modes and even player created modes

over 800 different species with different aspects to them (it cuts to roughly half of that if you remove previous evolutions)

equippable items to affect any strategy, some even let previous evolution forms be more viable than the fully evolved form

knowledge of every pokemon's likely moveset when pokemon have at least 20 moves each and four available spaces for moves(and that's an understatement...)

predicting your opponent's likely move and counterpredictions

status effects to impede performance with some that cure upon switch and some that do not

categories of battle types for the pokemon involved: Sweeper, revenge sweeper, tank/wall, wall-breaker, staller, status-infliction, setup, hazard-removal, hazard setup...

and add in status removal to the above

and that's only what I can list off of the top of my head oh and about that rock paper scissors comment, there are EIGHTEEN DIFFERENT TYPES OF POKEMON, not three and most of them have more than one type

end quote

your example of rock paper scissors...rock paper scissors has NINE...NINE outcomes. Pokemon AT THE LEAST AMOUNT POSSIBLE, has

#254 FREAKING MILLION POSSIBLE OUTCOMES

from just 10 pokemon...

Sp33d Zer0Jul 3, 20183 votes

You are completely missing the key word I am using. I am not saying it is literally rock paper scissors.

Glorified - represented in such a way as to appear more elevated or special.

Pokemon has its complexities, but at the end of the day you aren't going to "outplay" your opponent on a mechanical level and you aren't going to catch them off guard when they know the exact 4 moves and ability your pokemon has.

If you want to get super mathy with it though, you should do numbers for every possible EV and IV spread as well as natures.

3TWarriorJul 3, 20181 votes

Reflexes do not represent outplaying an opponent and you do not know what four moves the pokemon has until all four have been used

Pokemon is a strategy game, NOT A REFLEX-REACTION game

league is a hybrid game, it is why many players have complained that it is starting to become more reflex-reaction instead of proper planning, execution, prediction and resource management of loss versus gain

in order to outplay an opponent, you use the game against your opponent in a successful manner that is not free of risk

Sp33d Zer0Jul 4, 20181 votes

You completely missed the point of what I meant by the exact 4 moves they have.

In league of legends you have 4 abilities, a Q, a W, An E, and an R. You know exactly what abilities your opponent has when you go to fight them as it is set before the game starts.

So I'm saying that you won't be able to catch someone off guard in league of the legends the same way you would in Pokemon. You physically cannot. It would be like if you told your opponent every one of your 4 moves and your passive in pokemon before you sent them out.

3TWarriorJul 4, 20181 votes

I missed it because it was mis-stated. you said

you aren't going to catch them off guard when they know the exact 4 moves and ability your pokemon has

also, it plays out much the same, to surprise someone, you take advantage of an opportunity the opponent is not expecting

in pokemon, you do not know the opponent's move sets until after they have used them, in league, you have flash, aggressive playmaking, ranged abilities

you can make a general guess in league and you know their capabilities, but you will have a hard time knowing "every" move they will make

chipndip1Jul 3, 20181 votes

This post just proves:

You don't competitive Pokemon.
You missed my point entirely. League is a STRATEGIC game. A strategic team game with RPG elements. If you pick a mage, and I pick Kassadin, the game's anti-mage ap assassin, you COULD win lane against me, but odds are I'm knocking your lights out and snowballing off you unless you get help or you get lucky. That's not a design problem with the game more than it's your problem because you drafted poorly. You don't pick Snorlax into Machamp, right? So don't pick into bad lanes.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 3, 20182 votes

If you throw machamp into my snorlax I can switch out into my decidueye and hard counter. I'm not locked into one Pokemon like you are in league with your pick.

chipndip1Jul 3, 20181 votes

You draft a team of 6 to swap between in Pokemon.

Here, you draft a team of 5 to work off of simultaneously.

You can be locked into a bad spot in Pokemon just like you can here, even if the logistics are different. Where you can switch out of match-ups in Pokemon, you can receive aid from other lanes here. The only reason I brought up the former game is because it's easy to use it to explain the concept of match-ups.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 3, 20182 votes

Ok that's a fair point that I'll give you, I wasn't considering specifically the draft aspect.

However, unlike in pokemon you can't change out your laners as easily. You have people who have ultra specific kits that don't work in other lanes that make you unable to role swap (in general, not always the case especially with the current meta). In pokemon unless you are running a dedicated cleric as your only counter, you can generally switch around pokemon to get your favorable matchup the majority of the time.

chipndip1Jul 3, 20181 votes

And?

I actually ran a super-specific Mienshao build in an official tournament back in 2014 (I think...it was the Houston Winter Regional when X/Y was still in the circuit), with literally 0 coverage moves (Protect, Wide Guard, Fake Out, Drain Punch). I still barely missed top cut for that tournament. I went 6-2 running that thing.

Sure, they're different games, but I'm explaining a concept. If you pick a niche champion or niche build path, don't get mad at Riot when you misplay. Blame yourself for misplaying. Blame yourself/your team for drafting poorly. The game's balance shouldn't revolve around poor decision making.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 3, 20181 votes

God I miss the X/Y tournaments...

JabberwöckyJul 3, 20185 votes

I have to agree with this...

Like in ranked, oh their team picked first, now we have to pick something to counter their yasuo/yi/zed/malz/etc,or get roflstomped.

Then you pick 2 more champions.

Then they pick 2 more that can counter those/do well.

Then your last team mate says no, hes not countering, playing what he wants to play, and goes sona jungle.

That is no where near healthy, this even happens in gold-plat elo, thats why i havnt played this game seriously in the past year.

Pixie StormJul 3, 20181 votes

Facts. I don’t play blind so I don’t have that problem(I always draft) but I’m not gonna hop on a champion idk how to play just because I counter them. Let me get this straight: I love playing a variety of champions no matter what lane or role. But like you said and many others have said; I shouldn’t HAVE to counter pick that champion with something more OP. I would like to be able to “outplay” my opponent with something I know how to play well. What I will do is check if they counter pick me. Honestly on some of my main champions I feel confident going into their counter picks because I know how to play against it. However I do understand that there are some champions that just have have no counterplay. You need to cc to contain them.

Summonah12369Jul 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't matter if you get jungle control because your top laner is a bonobo and fed the illaoi. Now she can 1v3 and you don't have enough CC to permanently lock her down.

Sadly I actually did have to deal with a fed Illaoi today being fed by a KLED.

Despìca BìllJul 2, 201818 votes

I hear you. It's really irritating to have someone play badly, and then come back simply by virtue of their scaling, without playing any better at all. It's why champs like the above-mentioned are so popular, and get banned so often, despite their winrates, oft-cited by "I don't have this problem, so it must not exist" ELO players.

LordOfDarkness61Jul 2, 201818 votes

Riot fucked up game hard in last 3-4 months and that's all. It's not about champs but about items and runes. Soo much true dmg like you can have 30-35% (i think?) true dmg with runes and 1 item and that is just crazy.I don't have idea what is riot thinking.

Somebody Love MeJul 4, 20182 votes

3-4 months? Try 2 years

Pika FoxJul 2, 20187 votes

This will always be the case with every single champion in the game and nothing can ever be done about it.

It doesnt matter how far ahead you are, enemies will get gold and if you cant push your clear advantage and end, they will get items and get stronger. Items determine power, not kills.

Lets have shrexJul 2, 20188 votes

It used to be very late game when everyone is full built. A 0/8 MasterYi getting his first 2 items shouldn't be deletting everyone in a 1v1 case brainlessly, especially if you have 3 more items than him.

ƒƒplsJul 2, 20186 votes

Everyone here is super quick to defend or bash the post without actually thinking about it. There are plenty of champions in league right now that you could go 0/6, get their core built, then kill the opposing 6/0 laner with little to no trouble, playing the exact same way they were playing before they got the items.

Individual circumstances of this, yes, you can argue all sorts of different points like "he could just be better", "they played better as a team", etc. but when it all boils down, league's tier lists are VERY rigid because of the issue the OP is bringing forward. Each patch has a VERY rigid S tier list because those champions can only be handled by other S tier champions, and sometimes simply can't be handled no matter how shit the player is once they get their core items.

This isn't an issue that is widespread over every game you're gonna play, but as several other people have said, banning/counterpicking is not a valid point of balance. Sure, Riot manages to (usually over 3-4 patches) FINALLY stop some champs from being near 100% pick/ban, but that doesn't matter when the next patch brings out a new set of pick/ban balance issues.

Riot needs to spend more time on each individual patch instead of releasing broken mechanic after broken mechanic, fixing a few along the way here and there.

League has stood the test of time because it is ever-changing, evolving, adding new things to master and I love the game overall, but the balance team is ALL over the place. Sometimes they balance for solo queue, sometimes they ignore solo queue balance for several patches to get pro play in line, EVERY time they rush through a patch to try to release a new skin and make money and that sucks. Other games reach a state where they can't add anything without breaking the game, respect that barrier, and let the game be until the community dies. Riot just laughs while it breaks the game again and again to turn a profit.

I get it, Riot is a company that needs to make a profit, quit complaining, yada yada yada, but they shit on the integrity of the game to make money and that's the issue so many people have. They could just release new skins every few weeks to keep profits up while taking more time to clean up every single patch. That would provide more jobs for designers of skins, make a lot of players happy since they'd be able to do more skins for less than popular champions, and the balance team could actually make some solid work towards a balanced league of legends, but that isn't gonna happen.

chipndip1Jul 2, 20185 votes

If you didn't buy Zhonya's and Zed bought a drinker, you're actually deserving of harsh insults right now.

Doctor MilkJul 2, 20183 votes

♫ Anything you can pick, I can pick better!

I can pick anything better than you! ♫

gabetheguyJul 2, 20183 votes

has it ever dawned on you that maybe your enemy is just better than you

Lets have shrexJul 2, 20187 votes

If the guy is better than me, he wouldn't have a negative kda and losing the game in the first place

LuxannaVeritasJul 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lets have shrex,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VbX421cd,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-07-02T17:35:34.121+0000)

If the guy is better than me, he wouldn't have a negative kda and losing the game in the first place

Untrue.

Having a better KDA doesn't make you a better player. The decisions you make, and the progress you get out of them determines how good a player you are. If you get a lead early but can't use it to your advantage, and if your opponent falls behind early but manages to play around their power spike to come back, can you really say that you're a better player?

From draft phase and laning phase to late game, all decisions you make are important. If you lose, just admit that player(s) on the other team played better than you; making excuses just shifts the blame.

D4M2X0Jul 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Untrue.

Having a better KDA doesn't make you a better player. The decisions you make, and the progress you get out of them determines how good a player you are. If you get a lead early but can't use it to your advantage, and if your opponent falls behind early but manages to play around their power spike to come back, can you really say that you're a better player?

From draft phase and laning phase to late game, all decisions you make are important. If you lose, just admit that player(s) on the other team played better than you; making excuses just shifts the blame.

it doesnt matter how well you play, its about going premade and picking a meta champ. its easy to get carried but its hard to carry unless you pick a meta champ thats capable of carrying a bad team

5050BSJul 2, 20183 votes

There is no Champion balance. Only S Class and none S Class.

Riot needs to not put out new champions and needs to spend a LOT of time balancing champions so that it is about pick counter pick* and skill and not "they have X we lose".

(counter pick should give only a little advantage not total shut down)

ThilmerJul 3, 20182 votes

Totally agree with the author of this thread.

I haven't bougth armour in weeks; is the most useless stat in the game. On the other hand, a single magic resistance item allows you to ignore almost any mage, because "balance", you know... [slayer-jinx-unamused]

We had a problem with ADCs and now we have a problem with bruisers. When is Riot going to understand that autoattacks shouldn't do burst damage?

ZhihtiJul 3, 20182 votes

True, those IWinButtons suck the competitive aspect out of this game while providing fun aspect only to 1/10.

La Belle SauvageJul 2, 20181 votes

That doesn't appear to be the case in S4 down to B5. So, where is the line where it is true? Gold? plat?

If those champs are picked their team wins 100%? The champs you listed, the win rates are significantly higher than they were recently?

Despìca BìllJul 2, 20182 votes

He's not being literal....he specifically said he's just venting.

La Belle SauvageJul 2, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Despìca Bìll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VbX421cd,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-07-02T15:40:16.555+0000)

He's not being literal....he specifically said he's just venting.

Yeah, I saw. Great way to control anger that leads to venting though? Understanding the situation. Hyperbole (even when venting) makes it worse.

Funny part, just this morning I had this happen to me. The Yas was down 0-2, I was up a bit. Came back to lane he and the jungler killed me. Got the tower. And not long after they had my 2nd tower, and at that point he's 2-8.

But I was roaming, my team i(ncluding me) made a bunch of bad decisions that lead to us losing.

I was fustraed we lost because it was clear I made the wrong choices. Had I made the correct ones, it's possible Yas wouldn't have taken down the second tower.

So yeah sometimes a little perspective is helpful.

Otherwise venters start to believe their venting is always justified.

Despìca BìllJul 2, 20183 votes

I see your point but...the hardest to grasp, but most useful thing I ever learned about females applies here, though; most of the time, when they tell you about their problems, they don't want you to fix them, and they've probably already thought of every solution you're going to suggest, anyway. They just want you to listen and say you're sorry the thing sucks, because they feel like they're alone, and just want to be reassured they're not.

Lets have shrexJul 2, 20182 votes

I'm not a young girl in distress but this is exactly the kind of reactions I'm expecting [katarina-love]