As a support player i HATE to play against stealth

Common Satyr··12 votes·1,050 views

Mainly against eve, but it applies to other stealth champions as well. With the current ward system (which is better then the old one in a lot of ways) stealth just has little to no counter play. Now before you all yell at me that pinks exist, I'm well aware. My problem with the current pinks is that for the lane phase they just ask to be killed. Let me give you a clear example:

For this example, lets assume the enemy has an eve jungle and both bot lanes are evenly matched. Now if i have river bush or tri-bush pinked against the eve (like the game thinks i should) i will see eve come (if she comes through that spot only). As a result we back off when eve shows up. They kill the pink and vision is lost (100 gold value). Now this is where i have a big beef, we now have no idea if eve is still in that bush or anywhere else. We basically have to play assuming that she is still in the bush until she appears somewhere else which often is like 2 or 3 mins away. You cant really reward like you can if someone sweeps a normal ward, because if they are still there you are down another pink and 100 more gold.

With the system the way it is now, i don't even feel like i should buy wards as a support (in lane i mean, still need them for mid-late game) the amount of counter play feels terrible.

My suggested solution: A ward that is invisible like greens, that doesn't revel fog of war, but does revel stealth in the area (think about how units look in rengo ult, basically that). Cost of 75 like greens. This ward does not reveal other wards just traps (teemo shrooms) and champions. I think this would be a good solution to the problem.

7 Comments

Old Man Teeto3 votes

Stealth in the new system is purely beneficial on a kit. It forces people to waste gold on a killable ward that doesn't actually protect them. Stealth characters haven't been close to being balanced since the vision rework, and likely won't be balanced until they fix the vision game or remove stealths longer than ~2 seconds.

Stealth is basically a gap closer that you enemy can't see coming, you have to either play defensively when the possibility is even remote, or be able to fight them when they pop up.

Old vision system was perfect for laning and early game.

The mid-game was the first flaw, as the team that first had oracles and early pinks blotted the entire map out and blinded their enemy.

--- This was fixed by removing Oracles

The mid-late game was the other flaw, people were unable to buy wards because of item slots being filled.

--- This was fixed by trinkets existing

--- This was unfixed by making Sweepers in the trinket slot and pink wards being 1 maximum/player


The Ward Trinket and the Sweeper Trinket need to be de-coupled from each other. (The Scrying trinket makes decent sense to remain coupled with the ward trinket)

Essentially, everyone should have a "Vision Gain" trinket and a "Vision remove" trinket.

By shifting pink wards into the Vision Remove trinket section (Pink ward trinket) you have two methods for each. The Pink ward which is the defendable one good for a team fighting over an objective where they can hold their ground, and the sweeper meant for quick scans of areas.

Warding and counterwarding should be purely trinket based, and thus impossible to snowball the vision game either way (Except by upgrading the trinkets the one time - which would have value outside Oracles Sweeper)

In Solo-que it typically is 2 Sweepers and 3 Ward trinkets.

In Pro play it's 4 Sweepers and 1 Scrying Orb.

YouLostMe1 votes

How does this differ from the jungler sweeping your green in a brush and then camping there? Whether or not you have a sightstone or a green on hand, it's not like you're going to walk up to that previously-occupied brush with a Schroedinger's Jungler hiding in there just ward it. That's even worse than getting ganked with no vision!

Eve's stealth is basically slightly less ward insurance. If you want safety against Eve, you either need to play safe or keep a pink. If you have a pink and she pops it, let your jungler know they can gank an exposed lane without fear of a countergank, and then play safe. Sure you'll lose 2-3min extra on warding that brush, but that's what Eve's passive was designed for.

Binxy Prime1 votes

because the trinket to remove a green has a cd

YouLostMe1 votes

So it only matters between 30 and 120 seconds, which is actually a surprisingly a small window. I don't think that's very different.

Cordelia Gallo1 votes

Yeah, in this current meta stealth is really annoying.

Especially if the adc is Twitch and the jungler is Eve, you keep having to buy pinks.

With the current vision system, you can only buy place one vision ward, even though you'd need more than that to ensure that you can engage safely in bot. Also comparing with the enemy support, you'd be behind in gold early on.

DreamingOf Peace1 votes

I'd support being able to have 2 pinks down on the map from each champ.

SouL1ess1 votes

Oracles needs to be free, lasts for 4 minutes or until killed but the shop can only have one oracle in stock and restocks 5 minutes after the oracles is bought, and cannot be bought before level 9.

Since kills in LoL do not deny gold, buying Oracles is still a gold burden on the stealth character's enemies and thus imbalanced.

But having Oracles always readily available will be unfair to anyone with stealth since the stealth is then meaningless.

Therefore, Oracles NEEDS to be free (and does not reveal wards, if necessary; make a new ward Oracle that costs gold for that) but has certain constraints on its purchase. You can outplay the opponent during the oracles duration to get rid of it or wait out 4 minutes (while being useless to your team) and lose other benefits or advantages.

The 1 minute gap is also so that one character who is ahead will not ALWAYS have oracles up to overpower stealth characters.

Edit: idk whether the community takes ideas from DotA well. the OP's ward recommendation is basically DotA's revelation wards that has no natural vision but it is invisible itself and reveals in a 900 unit radius. I actually think that variation is quite unfair in LoL because 100g in DotA is hard to come by, but 75g in LoL is insanely easy. It will, IMHO, amount to a more unfair disadvantage for characters with stealth.

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