Regarding Vlad and the recent PBE changes.

Over Innsmouth··21 votes·1,762 views

I'll attempt to tackle this in as objective a way as I possibly can, but if some people can't see past that that's fine. Bear in mind I havent played League in a few weeks since I'm abroad and the country isnt properly supported by the EUW servers.

I'm going to preface this by saying that Vlad is at his core, a statstick. A walking statstick with no mobility to speak of and hardly any cc (soft or hard). So why does Vlad work? Four reasons. He's got respectable damage at range; which makes him a decent threat in most situations. He's got pretty good sustain (nowhere near the best in the game and immediately outclassed by what a item 3072 grants an AAing Champion, but his is innate), hyper efficiency with raw stats thanks to Crimson Pact, and most significantly; no mana, which allows him to function far longer than most other Champions can afford to, especially those who could outsustain him.

This whole thread was prompted by the most recent PBE update, where they put Vlad's passive the way it used to be (1.4 HP per 1 point of AP from 1 HP per 1 AP, and 1 AP for 40 HP from 1 AP for 25 HP). In a nutshell, it's a buff for building damage and a nerf for building tankier, not a huge buff/nerf either way, it just shifts the balance.

Couple this with the earlier change to Vlad this PBE cycle which nerfs his Q base at all ranks (don't remember the exact numbers, but they're pretty hefty nerfs at rank 4/5), but buffed his AP ratio up to 55% from 45%. It's pretty clear that Riot wants Tank Vlad to absolutely not be a thing, which is fair of them.

Except that's kind of how Vlad is meant to work, being tanky as shit while dealing respectable damage and healing up, which augments his tankiness by giving him chunks of his health bar back every few seconds.

Especially with the %health missing healing on Crimson Rush.

Speaking of Rush, his sustain is now almost entirely dependent on it; which is (from my POV) a good thing. Old Vlad could just sustain the same off everything, meaning you couldnt deny him healing off you as he'd just slurp up health from minions or something else, and he'd do this every couple of seconds with a CDR centric build. Now, it's not as effective to heal off minions, meaning you moving out of his range to deny him health is actually an effective tactic, as well as Rush being up more than three times less often than old Transfusion.

At it's core, every 1v1 with Vlad is "Can your DPS kill him before his CD's allow him another Rush?" It's stat check-y, but not as bad as old Vlad was. Since Rush scales with having low health, there's still a strong element of risk about using it to its full potential.

I've had people complain Vlad is OP because you can heal <2k health with one spell. Yes, you can, under perfect conditions. Perfect conditions that include: having health in double digits, being full build with mostly AP, and having either Baron or Elder Dragon buff (if not both). If Vlad is low enough to heal <2k health with Crimson Rush, you should be able to kill him before he does that.

Want to know what Vlad hates?

  1. Grevious Wounds (which I still think is an awful concept and Riot should just balance healing mechanics as they are without resorting to the bullshit that is GW, but that's another discussion). Use that shit instead of complaining. It's fairly accessible for most Champions.
  2. He also hates being ganged up on. Yeah, everyone does, but there's something people have to come to terms with; try to avoid 1v1'ing Vladimir. This is a Champion who's core theme is having pretty damn good sustain, and it doesnt run out. So unless you're certain that your DPS outmatches Vlad's healing, don't 1v1 him.
  3. Use the unit collision on Tides of Blood against him. Tanks in the front, squishies in the back, the way you do it every teamfight.
  4. If you can effectively deny him getting the full heal off Crimson Rush, you'll be that much closer to beating him. Whether by going untargetable when his Rush comes up, or by using some mobility to get out of range for it, or whatever else.
  5. ADC's. Especially Caitlyn. You match/outrange most ADC's range of 550 with your Q and E, but after a certain point (notably the aforementioned item 3072 ), they can match your sustain, if not surpass it. Of course, I mean lategame ADC's, so don't get any ideas of 1v1'ing Vlad with your two first items. Caitlyn especially because her range allows her to actually kite Vlad as if he were a melee Champion, provided she's good at kiting.

Going back to Riot trying to shave power off tankier Vlad builds, I'm fine with that as long as they don't kill it. Tankko was a problem because his kit abused it when it was not meant to. Tank Fizz was/is a problem because his W gave him damage where he didnt build for it, and his E is one of the most hilariously overloaded things in this game. Tank Vlad is...kinda how he's designed to be. I said it's fair of Riot to try move away from Tank Vlad, which I stand by, just don't kill it.

May your games be creamy, and your rivers run red, Tides of Blood.

36 Comments

Captain Lito8 votes

Yeah as a Vlad player I can agree with this. I don't like Tank Vlad personally, but these should probably be the only nerfs towards it, being able to play both styles is perfectly fine so long as they're both reasonably balanced, and these changes do take that step in a good fashion. Only big concern on my part now is how powerful a mid-late Vlad will be, especially considering that LCS games can go on a long time and people are already gawking at his damage/sustain levels.

Oh and yeah, fuck Caitlyn.

Over Innsmouth3 votes

Fuck Caitlyn.

Vlad's always been a king mid-late anyway, I don't think it's fair to take that away from him given how atrocious his early game is.

Captain Lito2 votes

Yeah I'd rather have a shit early game like pre-rework than a shitty mid-late any day.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

Post-rework's early is nothing good anyway. You can dominate a lane with Rush threatening, but the enemy kinda has to just let you Rush them for that to work, so it's not viable against people who arent shitscared of you for some reason.

NineTailedMystic4 votes

It's likely due to Mid Vlad being impossible to kill to 90% of mid laners once he finishes as little as item 3211

Jet Sett4 votes

I want item 3123 to be nerfed, there's no effort to applying GW, it's incredibly unfair for sustain tanks.

Over Innsmouth11 votes

That's a funny way to spell "removed", friend.

Jet Sett2 votes

I would love for it to be removed, it's the very definition of toxic. I just wasn't paying attention to your name, so I didn't notice you were a Vlad main, otherwise I would have unleashed my inner tirade about it.

Over Innsmouth5 votes

Feels real shitty to die because I didnt heal for the full amount because a stray Runaans bolt hit me or some shit.

Jet Sett1 votes

I agree, ADC's seem to have a great access to most things the game has to offer; Sustain, the means to deny others sufficient sustain, the ability to build CDR easily (not helpful for all, but it's still generally an ADC item) we had them abusing Juggernaut items, and the armor pen builds were incredibly strong against squishies and tanks both. Honorable mention goes to Ezreal for breaking damn near everything he touches, and not being changed but getting the item changed instead.

CeexSett1 votes

That also hits me hard, being a Soraka main :(

At least not many people buy it in my Elo bracket.

WoonStruck4 votes

This. Vlad won't be decent without being absurdly strong because of it and item 3165 being a rush on a large amount of mages.

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

It's incredibly unfair that every item gives sustain now. I shouldn't have to build the item.

Jet Sett1 votes

I understand how you feel, so much sustain that using item 3123 to counter it is a no brainer for AD champs, it just isn't a fair design in and of itself. I can't speak for everyone, but since Riot's letting it be this toxic/op I don't believe you can be blamed for using this, just an item that needs to be nerfed into balance.

Blood Magicks3 votes

I absolutely love the versatility in Vlad's builds.

Instead of trying to delete tank Vlad, Riot should focus on making him more tank-like: even beefier but less dangeous damage-wise. He's nowhere near as bad as tank Ekko or even tank Fizz/Yasuo: he lacks the mobility and even hard CC of these champions and hence is the perfect candidate for a juggermage.

kile1471 votes

I have also thought he could make an interesting AP Juggernaut. The issue is that juggernauts are already oppressive to many melees, so adding the ability to kite to that would make him flat out broken as a juggernaut.

Sahn Uzal3 votes

I really do not mind playing versus Vladimir Vladimir at all. I'm a Gangplank Gangplank player. I just take Ignite summoner 14 vs him. Constantly harrass him with Barrels and Q's, run away from him when his 3d Q is ready, use my minions to block his E. Once he gets low (which he will), run up to him, apply passive, Ignite him when he is about to Q and jsut kill him. I usually rush item 3057 item 3123 because it makes sure he won't catch back up for quite a while. assuming I'm not letting him freefarm

When his jungler ganks me, and I die before I get to kill Vladimir, I'm fucked. But I'm fine with that. There are a lot of champions who can punish someone like GP for dying once..

WoonStruck1 votes

GP doesn't have the mana to poke Vlad out unless he's not using Q to farm, in which case he's losing lane automatically.

Sahn Uzal2 votes

Do you know why basically everyone takes Bandit over Bounty hunter on GP? Also, place a barrel, place another when Vlad walks up and AA to detonate it.

WoonStruck1 votes

Its obvious why you take bandit lol. That has nothing to do with this. It just means he gets gold for poking...which means very little for the match-up. Again, mana is still an issue for GP.

Also, you're not getting a single chain off against a ranged champ unless its using bushes, which anyone decent will not fall for. You'll be using barrel almost exclusively to farm against anyone that isn't terrible or melee.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Also, you're not getting a single chain off against a ranged champ unless its using bushes, which anyone decent will not fall for. You'll be using barrel almost exclusively to farm against anyone that isn't terrible or melee.

Correction, YOU are not getting a chain off vs a ranged champ. Git Gud.

Mandang03 votes

Awesome post! I don't really have anything to add directly on topic, as you've said everything I would!

In general, I think Riot's going to have a problem with Vlad and other sustain champs' balance (RIP Swain) until they change their grievous wounds itemization in the same way that they recently changed QSS. Many players complain about Vlad/Swain's sustain, yet the ADCs still refuse to spend 800 gold on an item that lets them cut this same sustain by 40% just by sneezing on the champ. Riot can't make that counter-itemization any easier - if players continue to refuse to buy it, that's on the players. Further, it just feels bad when the situation is so binary (as QSS's interaction with Zed/Trundle/etc was), as you're either operating at 100% sustain or 60% sustain, all without really demanding any resources (800 gold is cheap, and Morello's is getting bought anyway).

Spizzle90002 votes

Okay, here's a serious question: how do you think one will build Vlad now that they're nerfing tank Vladimir? Like, I never really build him super tanky, but I still got a Visage (which is still going to be a core item probably) and some tank armor item.

My build generally was item 3116>item 3158>item 3065>item 3143>item 3089>item 3151

Do you think this'll still be an effective build since they're nerfing him, or do you think I should just replace Randuin's with Zhonya's?

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Well my build is generally item 3742 /item 3065 >item 3116 >item 3135 >item 3089 +item 3158 . I don't like Zhonyas. It's shitty stat-wise and is literally only there so that (insert AD Assassin here) can't kill you anymore.

Health is still more useful than it was on old Vlad, since you got that tasty 10% scaling on E, and being tanky is its own reward. I'd say feel out what feels good, and go for what you like.

Spizzle90001 votes

I know you cannot learn without failure but the issue is I can't really tell what feels best without being able to test only a variable at a time :/ and since it's impossible to have a series of almost identical games, Idk how that'll work out. I'm probably gonna stick with my current build and see how it works out but with the nerfs to his Q, it probably will be significantly less successful.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

funny thing is that teemo can somewhat beat vlad now. the rework changed him quite a bit.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

In what way would Teemo ever beat a competent Vlad?

EC rush doesnt count, shit's broken.

option paralysis1 votes

I never built tanky on Vlad, I always just built AP with other stats. I hated the rework first, but got used to it, and I still think they should just remove that hp scaling on E and make it better with AP. Though, I guess that was the point of the rework or some shit. To lose more hp than before and making his q have counterplay. Also, they're nerfing his base dmg on normal q which is already garbage (I literally laugh every time when I heal for like 40 HP mid game with normal Q), and leaving his "hey, Imma heal for 1k+" untouched.. and then they wonder how he has 70% ban rate, I just don't understand. Losing a shit ton of hp while trying to clear really big waves is not fun either.. fortunately I don't play ranked cuz of garbage q so I really can't be upset over that in normals.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I partially agree, of all the problematic champions; vladimir & swain are the only two meant to be tanky. They both have no mobility; vladimir has next to no crowd control, and swain has mana issues if he tries to go ham. If they gain a significant lead, sure they can snowball (since riot reworked the game on the side of a mountain), but if they're behind they're basically useless all game long. And you're spot on about the assassins going tank, like I've said elsewhere assassins have too much free damage in their kits, it's why they can/could abuse being tanks harder than actual tanks.

I'm not a fan of his 'crimson rush', it's so choreographed & slow that often the only champion he can catch with it is mordekaiser. Without this short lived 'buff' his Q is pathetic; little damage and negligible healing. But I'd say his 'tides of blood' is worse; chunking himself for 10% MAX hp while slowing himself. Yeah it's aoe, but between its delay & inability to pierce, it's useless against anyone with mobility. In most games it feels like he's gimped with an ability that's literally painfully unreliable.

However I'd say vladimir doesn't fight particularly well against most marksmen (except maybe ezreal & corki) due to how much sustain and durability they can stack up and with excessive variety! item 3812 item 3046 item 3156 item 3053 item 3072 item 3091 item 3153 item 3139 (& item 3031 with masteries) Now I know some people are going to retort, 'but deaths dance & phantom dancer dont give magic resist', which is right; but they give damage REDUCTION. They also have 5 options for lifesteal, and 3 for magic resist. And don't forget that they can negate nearly half of all his healing with an 800 gold item, that applies to ALL physical damage; while vlad has to pay 2900 gold for something that gives him useless mana and requires him to burst them for over HALF their health before he can negate part of the marksmen' healing. Though I agree he's easier to beat than most people think.

Pope Glitterhoof1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cbdAZrwR,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-06-21T15:16:59.667+0000)

Now I know some people are going to retort, 'but deaths dance & phantom dancer dont give magic resist', which is right; but they give damage REDUCTION.

Just want to chime in here: Death's Dance doesn't give damage reduction. 12% of damage taken is converted into true damage over time. You still take the exact same amount of damage even when you have Death's Dance equipped.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Correct, however if you only had just enough damage in your rotation to equal their health, you suddenly don't kill them quick enough with your combo. They'd have time to take you with them. And death's dance doesn't hinder healing at all, ontop of giving 15% lifesteal on all physical damage. So unless you can overkill them significantly, you won't kill them at all while putting yourself at more risk. I've won & lost uncountable fights by cooldowns 1 second shy, imagine having 3 to stall for.

WitchQueen Annie1 votes

So will Spirit Visage still be a must-build on him with these changes now?

Seems like you'll take a massive reduction in Q damage and AP amassed with the new changes to the passive...

I was just comfortable with CDR tank Vlad... Damn you Riot, keep changing my champ

Over Innsmouth1 votes

I'd reckon so.

And passive changes (ie. literally just old passive values) will make AP heavy builds more rewarding, which will in turn bolster his Q (higher AP ratio) and whatnot.

Like I said, Riot seems to not want full tank Vlad to be a thing, but they arent killing it (yet) because it's a core part of his identity to be tanky.

morris11 votes

Why exactly does he hate getting ganged by others? Of all mages I think he's got it the best in outnumbered fights, even moreso than Brand or Heimerdinger. In the early game I'd assume it's pretty devastating once you use your W, but once you have 3 or 4 items you have enough survivability to just go in the middle and ult all of them and use your low CD E and Q to shred them while drawing their aggro from your carries before your ultimate heals you for 1000 hp.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

He's definitely not better than Brand at multi-man brawls, since Brand was reworked to be tailor-made to fuck groups of people and leave burns in their anus.

The main reason is that the more people you have on Vlad, the easier it is to out-DPS his sustaining, which as I said is the basic element in "will Vlad win a fight/1v1?" The other big reason is that you can unit block his Tides of Blood, so you can have beefers in the front and squishies in the back.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

on my vlad i love to build item 3151 item 3065 item 3116item 3089 if they have a lot of ap item 3001 item 3111 if mostly ad item 3157 item 3047 though depending on how lucky i feel and if they build mr ill get item 3135 instead of the second armor item

More from Gameplay

More by Over Innsmouth