Lee Sin & Qiyana's ult seriously deserves a harsh damage nerf...

BeatzBoyFTW·Jan 19, 2020·49 votes·14,114 views

And this is considering how heavy their CC displacement is. They literally have the potential to halt the opposing team by being kicked up for a full second by a kicked Teemo, or being forced to kiss the wall thanks to Motonari Mori-wanna be, all this followed by having their health being chunked down at the same time.

No assassins should have this much crap squeezed into 1 ability. Reduce either the damage or CC duration on both champions.

48 Comments

KazekibaJan 19, 202031 votes

Keep the damage; Remove Qiyana's stun on her R.

Assassins shouldnt have so much CC, and "3 man wall stuns" is Gnar's job. its fine if she has a max 1 second conditional stun, but Qiyana has WAY too MUCH CC and most of it is AoE. On an A S S A S S I N.

Imagine if Talon's E was a taunt and his R Feared everyone hit yb the blades. Or Kassadin had his silence still. Zed landing two+ Es together stuns the target instead of a slow If Akali could stun on both R casts, for longer than 0.33 seconds. (Granted, Eve/Ahri do ave Charm and Elise has a stun, but these are single target basic abilities and can be difficult to land. Ekko and diana are Divers more than Assassins, although theyre a mix between the classes. Shaco fear isnt really part of his damage, and is more to help stick to a target) Im not against ANY CC on Assassins, just not as much as Qiyana has)

TrueDamage NinjaJan 19, 20201 votes

It was just Akalis first R cast that stunned the enemies for 0.5 seconds. And if they line up so she can stun everyone, lul.

It is always fascinating how people rant about this champion and have little to no clue what she actually does...

NitenGaleJan 20, 202013 votes

He's not saying that's what her R does, he's saying Qiyana with her R and cc on her Q is just as dumb as an Akali with a stun on both Rs. LEarn to read man.

OP has a point though. For assassins (and Lee Sin is damn near an assassin at this point), they have waaay too much damage AND cc in one, for no reason. They're overloaded enough without it.

F1uttershy2075Jan 20, 20202 votes

Yea but Qiyana has to be near a river for her to keep that Q. and if you're getting water and saving it the entire match your playing her wrong.. 2 he range on her Q stun is actually pretty small.. and the casting for it is narrow

As for her ult, its fine the way it is.

the main issue is people have no idea how to counter play champs and get upset when they put themselves in a bad situation and lose.

Kiwi LemonadeJan 22, 20202 votes

I'd be fine if it stunned, for a much shorter time and only at the immediate wall she knocked a person into. The whole following wall thing is bs since you stun/kill targets you didn't even mean to especially in dragon pit where there is virtually no counterplay to it. Also remove the root on her water element and just give it a slow or a healing effect for her. No roots on an assassin with two jumps.

FSRERJan 20, 20202 votes

[{quoted}](name=TrueDamage Ninja,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cacuAQk8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2020-01-19T21:18:08.846+0000)

It was just Akalis first R cast that stunned the enemies for 0.5 seconds. And if they line up so she can stun everyone, lul.

It is always fascinating how people rant about this champion and have little to no clue what she actually does...

And it always fascinates me how poor reading skills some people have. The person you commented, in all of his examples said imagine IF so he again, said imagine IF Akali could stun on both R charges not that she does that right now. Read better next time

KazekibaJan 20, 20201 votes

If Akali COULD stun on both of her R casts.

AkumuJan 20, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Keep the damage; Remove Qiyana's stun on her R.

Assassins shouldnt have so much CC, and "3 man wall stuns" is Gnar's job. its fine if she has a max 1 second conditional stun, but Qiyana has WAY too MUCH CC and most of it is AoE. On an A S S A S S I N.

Imagine if Talon's E was a taunt and his R Feared everyone hit yb the blades. Or Kassadin had his silence still. Zed landing two+ Es together stuns the target instead of a slow If Akali could stun on both R casts, for longer than 0.33 seconds. (Granted, Eve/Ahri do ave Charm and Elise has a stun, but these are single target basic abilities and can be difficult to land. Ekko and diana are Divers more than Assassins, although theyre a mix between the classes. Shaco fear isnt really part of his damage, and is more to help stick to a target) Im not against ANY CC on Assassins, just not as much as Qiyana has)

Meanwhile Bruisers in this meta 3 shot you, have usually 1-2 CCs and have 10x the tankiness of a champion like Qiyana so im not sure why you'd go out of your way to complain about assassins.

If the choice is playing against a fed Qiyana or a fed bruiser like Camille, Morde, Fiora, Kled ect ill choose Qiyana every time. Maybe she will CC and one shot me, but at least she can easily be one shot as well. Meanwhile the bruiser who CCs me and one shots me is impossible to kill.

ThefrostyvikingJan 20, 20202 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Bruisers in this meta 3 shot you, have usually 1-2 CCs and have 10x the tankiness of a champion like Qiyana so im not sure why you'd go out of your way to complain about assassins.

If the choice is playing against a fed Qiyana or a fed bruiser like Camille, Morde, Fiora, Kled ect ill choose Qiyana every time. Maybe she will CC and one shot me, but at least she can easily be one shot as well. Meanwhile the bruiser who CCs me and one shots me is impossible to kill.

Camilie is also overpowered, Morde is overpowered, Kled is....less so but still very strong and mainly so against those who rely on healing.

No wonder you do not want to play against them x)

KazekibaJan 20, 20202 votes

Cami, Kled and Fiora are fine. Morde is awful if he goes 3/0 in lane but he has no real ultimate and his damage is all easily avoided.

Meanwhile Qiyana can R a wall from the other side and stun you anyway, vault over and dump her entire rotation on you but then jump into an old Akali-esque shroud and reset, get an execute and blow up three people because all of her damage is AoE for some reason. And you cant do fuckall if that R hits, cuz she'll stun lock you while she does all of this. Qiyana is terrible Design and I don't know why people bitched about Zoe but not THIS garbage

BrokenRayquazaJan 20, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Cami, Kled and Fiora are fine. Morde is awful if he goes 3/0 in lane but he has no real ultimate and his damage is all easily avoided.

Meanwhile Qiyana can R a wall from the other side and stun you anyway, vault over and dump her entire rotation on you but then jump into an old Akali-esque shroud and reset, get an execute and blow up three people because all of her damage is AoE for some reason. And you cant do fuckall if that R hits, cuz she'll stun lock you while she does all of this. Qiyana is terrible Design and I don't know why people bitched about Zoe but not THIS garbage

If you get hit by a wall explosion from the other side of a even moderately large wall you kinda deserve to get hit tbh

SiG DxDJan 20, 20204 votes

do ppl remember how much crying the community did over 1 second silence which was instant from talon ?

now qiyana has a stun that follows every wall in jungle and works on everyone while nuking their health bar too

KazekibaJan 21, 20201 votes

No but I do remember Kassadin and Leblanc used to

ĘsdeathJan 21, 20201 votes

What have you done...?

Now you have just given them ideas to ruin this game even more than it already is. Prepare for bonus 300 true damage and 15 seconds bleed+stun on every AAs and on all levels if you are an assassin.

ŻügżwängJan 21, 20201 votes

I would agree with this too. Keep her damage, but was never a fan of it also stunning.

McKuntaldsJan 20, 202012 votes

What's worse is that Lee's ult sets him up for his piss easy QQ , E , auto follow up which will kill half of the roster if he stacks damage.

GilxeNJan 20, 20201 votes

{quoted}

What's worse is that Lee's ult sets him up for his piss easy QQ , E , auto follow up which will kill half of the roster if he stacks damage.

You think insecs are easy?

Go que 20 matches in a row as Lee Sin and post the results in this topic.

When all champs has dashes, mobility or overhelming CC it's not that easy to perform some quick setups.

BrightWîngsJan 20, 20209 votes

I dont think they were talking about insecs

GilxeNJan 20, 20201 votes

{quoted}

I dont think they were talking about insecs

It was a proper given example, because he thinks its "easy".

BrightWîngsJan 20, 20203 votes

No but a R QQ E is.... lol

Weiss GuertenaJan 20, 20209 votes

You're trying to use logic against Lee defenders, mate. It simply won't work.

3TWarriorJan 21, 20201 votes

insecs involve ward hops to behind the opponent

RQQ is just that and the opponent is unable to move for the entirety of the R animation while repositioned in the same direction as the angle they were from Lee sin

Daedric EtwahlJan 20, 20207 votes

Nobody said anything about insecs. That's just what happens when Lee Sin Safeguards to a ward, or Flashes to get in Ult range.

As long as the Lee player isn't also actually blind, that's a brainless Q-Q into the rest of his damage since the CC from the kick lasts an eternity

GilxeNJan 20, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cacuAQk8,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2020-01-20T08:33:53.812+0000)

Nobody said anything about insecs. That's just what happens when Lee Sin Safeguards to a ward, or Flashes to get in Ult range.

As long as the Lee player isn't also actually blind, that's a brainless Q-Q into the rest of his damage since the CC from the kick lasts an eternity

You think even that is easy?

Everyone talking about "OP" state of the champion, but when u check their history they haven't even played him.

Jeez there are so many crying posts about the champion, but they simply can't understand his weakness. He is early game champ, shut down him early, and thats it he can't do a shit mid-late game, because the power spike would be denied.

This shitpost is at mediocre level like the posts above.

Daedric EtwahlJan 20, 20205 votes

You think even that is easy?

...Yes? Actually I know it's easy, because landing a simple skillshot on an already CC'd target is the easiest shit in the world.

It's really not that difficult for Lee to get into ult range without Q>Q

ThefrostyvikingJan 20, 20203 votes

{quoted}

You think even that is easy?

Everyone talking about "OP" state of the champion, but when u check their history they haven't even played him.

Jeez there are so many crying posts about the champion, but they simply can't understand his weakness. He is early game champ, shut down him early, and thats it he can't do a shit mid-late game, because the power spike would be denied.

This shitpost is at mediocre level like the posts above.

How dafq do you shutdown the early game powerhouse during his best time? Pick someone who is better than him early?

Chainman3Jan 21, 20201 votes

How do you beat Darius early? How do you beat Caitlyn early? How do you beat renekton early? How do you beat Elise early? How do you beat reksai early? You respect their dmg and play safe to ensure you don’t feed all early game. Rather than shoving wave opening yourself to ganks, freezing wave just outside turret. React to invades quickly. Ward the map to know where he is at all times. Not bush wards but deeper wards. Enemy blue buff, enemy raptors, entrances to enemy jungle. If you still die while knowing where Lee sin is you’re either bad or he made a good play on you. Knowledge is power

ThefrostyvikingJan 21, 20201 votes

{quoted}

How do you beat Darius early? How do you beat Caitlyn early? How do you beat renekton early? How do you beat Elise early? How do you beat reksai early? You respect their dmg and play safe to ensure you don’t feed all early game. Rather than shoving wave opening yourself to ganks, freezing wave just outside turret. React to invades quickly. Ward the map to know where he is at all times. Not bush wards but deeper wards. Enemy blue buff, enemy raptors, entrances to enemy jungle. If you still die while knowing where Lee sin is you’re either bad or he made a good play on you. Knowledge is power

So just give up all early game priority, do not ever pick an early game champ as a laner and go tripsing around his jungle praying to heaven i dont run into him to ward, got it x)

Oh and pray to heaven he does not use his ult to kick me away from my tower at 6 either.

Well sarcasm aside, freezing the minions early is hella unrealistic since enemy laner would have to be stupid to let you do that they will either hardshove and poke you under tower or they will either freeze or always ensure the lane gets reset at the very least.

To pull off a successful freeze you either are so strong the enemy cant go near you to break it or their jungler is around and going for those minions enable said jungler to have an easy gank.

As for how i beat Darius early?

If i can i just abuse his Q inner circle and beat him silly with it in short trades, otherwise i simply sit around for EXP while remaining thankful he cant kill me if i keep my distance, usually tell my junglers to avoid toplane like the plague in the second case because it tends to lead into him being strong enough to 1v2.

How to beat Cait? Botlane matchups like these depends on the support, if those are favorable i can just engage on her or her support and kill her, if neutral i´d grab lifesteal to heal through any poke of hers and if bad the same story as the bad Darius matchup.

Beat Elise early? You basically do not if she is any good, she can easily towerdive from level 3 onwards if you ever get to like 50% health, there is a reason she is one of the pro favorites.

Beat Rek sai? Copypaste of lee.

Chainman3Jan 21, 20201 votes

So just give up all early game priority, do not ever pick an early game champ as a laner and go tripsing around his jungle praying to heaven i dont run into him to ward, got it x)

I mean im assuming you're referring to late game champs. Renekton Darius and most assassins can walk all over him. Leona stomps him. Other early game junglers can beat him. But i was strictly referring if you're playing a mid to late game champion what to do. That doesnt mean you need to give up objectives. You can still defend objectives as long as you arent feeding the enemy team, you can still 5v5 but yes this will be more difficult early just like it will be more difficult for them to 5v5 you guys later.

freezing the minions early is hella unrealistic since enemy laner would have to be stupid to let you do that they will either hardshove and poke you under tower or they will either freeze or always ensure the lane gets reset at the very least.

Because you know in this scenario we're saying they have a jungler and you dont. I thought we were talking about both sides having a jungle just one side has a better early game jungle like lee. Doesnt mean the other jungler is nonexistent.

To pull off a successful freeze you either are so strong the enemy cant go near you to break it

This is true, so why are you assuming you're weaker than the opposing laner as well? So i dont get the jump in logic here from stronger enemy jungle to now stronger enemy laner and jungler. If you're a mid to late game champ then none of this matters because you auto win later in the game anyways as long as you dont feed. Even down a few drakes you can still get soul and win.

Beat Elise early? You basically do not if she is any good, she can easily towerdive from level 3 onwards if you ever get to like 50% health, there is a reason she is one of the pro favorites. Beat Rek sai? Copypaste of lee.

So you understand its about keeping yourself healthy against early game junglers. At least until levels 6-8 where you can burst them out on a tower dive. Not to mention because these junglers spend more time ganking than most other junglers if they dont get their kills they'll naturally fall behind assuming your jungler is playing correctly as well. They're high risk high reward champions for a reason, if you dont get ahead they fall off compared to mid to late game champions.

ThefrostyvikingJan 21, 20201 votes

{quoted}

I mean im assuming you're referring to late game champs. Renekton Darius and most assassins can walk all over him.

They likely will not in a 1v2 at levels 3-4-5.

Leona stomps him. Other early game junglers can beat him. But i was strictly referring if you're playing a mid to late game champion what to do. That doesnt mean you need to give up objectives. You can still defend objectives as long as you arent feeding the enemy team, you can still 5v5 but yes this will be more difficult early just like it will be more difficult for them to 5v5 you guys later.

Leo does not do much if lee actually gets a surprise gank early, better to have a thresh instead then.

Defend objectives? If lee is so strong that i cant take the risk to contest lane priority then what stops him from just invading my jungler over and over? I sure as hell wont be able to save them when i am stuck under tower and down a level or two.

Because you know in this scenario we're saying they have a jungler and you dont. I thought we were talking about both sides having a jungle just one side has a better early game jungle like lee. Doesnt mean the other jungler is nonexistent.

Well basically it does at this point in the scenario you describe.

Unless my jungler can beat the lee 1v1 then he has complete dominance in pressure, neither i nor my teammates can play forward and are forced to avoid some early CS to ensure Lee does not get to gank us.

If we get caught by lee he is now snowballing and he will dominate our jungle from that point on and has a very large chance at just finalizing the outcome of the game from there-

A lane of ours gets strong? Strong lee camps them into oblivion and now they are not so strong anymore.

This is true, so why are you assuming you're weaker than the opposing laner as well? So i dont get the jump in logic here from stronger enemy jungle to now stronger enemy laner and jungler. If you're a mid to late game champ then none of this matters because you auto win later in the game anyways as long as you dont feed. Even down a few drakes you can still get soul and win.

I do not have to be weaker necessarily, all it takes is me being vulnerable if Lee can gank and then i cant play forward no matter how strong i might be up to the point where i win even if he comes.

That´s why some champs like Renekton are so utterly useless against a strong early jungler, since they have to play forward to be useful but if they do its like painting themselves with a target.

Beat Rek sai? Copypaste of lee. So you understand its about keeping yourself healthy against early game junglers. At least until levels 6-8 where you can burst them out on a tower dive. Not to mention because these junglers spend more time ganking than most other junglers if they dont get their kills they'll naturally fall behind assuming your jungler is playing correctly as well. They're high risk high reward champions for a reason, if you dont get ahead they fall off compared to mid to late game champions.

Of course, but you see the issue here is the fact that to "respect them" the basic rules are as follows :

Give up lane priority to avoid ganks, sacrifice EXP and gold for safety.
Do not go to help my jungle if my laners go to invade them since i am likely down on levels unless i am much, much closer.
Give up objectives like Dragon if you suffer too much during point 1 and 2

Aight these are not complicated? But what do i actually do as a laner if i happen to play a early-midgame focused champion? Do i just go AFK since i am destined to be unable to get a lead in lane and will be useless?

Or if i actually happen to play a midgame/lategame champ, what do i do in this situation where i cant play forward or go near the minions in fear of lee jumping on me, if the enemy side freezes the wave when i back up?

Approach to try and reset it? That means failing rule nr 1, if i die chances are a snowball that denies me any lategame starts.

Sit back and just wait? I likely will not recover from a CS deficiency larger than 30 which any good freezer can accomplish, at some point the enemy laners will get strong enough to towerdive me if i keep giving up stuff......Give up dragons? Enemy team gets all the buffs any dragon soul that is not cloud and now the game is pretty much decided.

Nope this all leads to a dead end, the only way around it is for me to smash lane suddenly so Lee cant react in time then freeze the wave and kill my opponents if they ever go near again... eventually they´ll be so weak i can win even if Lee tries to help them unless he got seriously fed elsewhere.

But at this point where i am much much stronger than my opponents i can hard shove in minions to their tower and then leave to go and do stuff like ward lee´s jungle and invade him to fight him 1v1 if i can win that.

And so here we are today, bunch of laners hating the junglers who are good and successfully decide the lanes for the laners and junglers hating laners who snowball before anyone can stop them and invade the jungles.......well more like hating their teammates for feeding but one does not exclude the other.

Chainman3Jan 21, 20201 votes

They likely will not in a 1v2 at levels 3-4-5.

It shouldnt be a 1v2 if they're playing safe. Thats why you ward and dont open yourself to ganks.

Defend objectives? If lee is so strong that i cant take the risk to contest lane priority then what stops him from just invading my jungler over and over?

You're making an assumption here. I said to play safe. That doesnt mean to hug your tower and not do anything. It means ward around you manage your wave properly and anticipate where lee can come from and your escape routes you can take. You technically should be doing these things against any jungler but if lee falls behind from failed ganks because you're doing this it affects him more than other junglers.

Unless my jungler can beat the lee 1v1 then he has complete dominance in pressure, neither i nor my teammates can play forward and are forced to avoid some early CS to ensure Lee does not get to gank us.

This is false because if lee is bot side or seen on the map then top side can apply pressure and your jungler can gank top or mid. Just because 1 jungler is stronger doesnt mean the other jungler is useless. Furthermore even if your jungler cant 1v1 laner + jungle can 2v2. If you have a jungle amumu and he cant 1v1 lee. If zed and veigar are mid as long as amumu hits one of the 2 with his bandage toss and zed drops his full combo on the stunned target, you auto win the 2v2. It gets even worse for lee if that matchup is level 6. Regardless tho this makes the statement false.

If we get caught by lee he is now snowballing and he will dominate our jungle from that point on and has a very large chance at just finalizing the outcome of the game from there- A lane of ours gets strong? Strong lee camps them into oblivion and now they are not so strong anymore.

If a laner gets ahead they can 1v2 deleting lee first then killing the behind laner. Anyone who snowballs has a chance to dominate the game its not exclusive to lee.

I do not have to be weaker necessarily, all it takes is me being vulnerable if Lee can gank

You said it yourself, "all it takes is me being vulnerable". Which is why especially against early game junglers you dont open yourself like that.

That´s why some champs like Renekton are so utterly useless against a strong early jungler, since they have to play forward to be useful but if they do its like painting themselves with a target.

No they dont have to play forward they just have to manage their wave and their engages. Not be that person who always jumps on the enemy each time their in range and when they get baited and killed they blame their jungler. This would be just poor play by the renekton. You're not playing against bots, theres a human on the other side of the computer, they can take a step too far forward intentionally to get you to all-in them to your death. Again this isnt exclusive to lee any jungler can do this.

Of course, but you see the issue here is the fact that to "respect them" the basic rules are as follows : 1.Give up lane priority to avoid ganks, sacrifice EXP and gold for safety. 2.Do not go to help my jungle if my laners go to invade them since i am likely down on levels unless i am much, much closer. 3.Give up objectives like Dragon if you suffer too much during point 1 and 2

These are all not true. You can farm outside your tower and not give up map pressure. Sure theres small windows where you can be invaded but thats just it they're small windows. Thats the benefit of having a strong early game jungler. But while you can be pushed in and your jungler can be invaded you can also say you can be pushed in and your jungler can now gank your over extended enemy or he loses farm and backs off.

Aight these are not complicated? But what do i actually do as a laner if i happen to play a early-midgame focused champion?

I answered this above, since you're misinterpreting playing safe as what you tell someone when theyre feeding their ass off.

Or if i actually happen to play a midgame/lategame champ, what do i do in this situation where i cant play forward or go near the minions in fear of lee jumping on me, if the enemy side freezes the wave when i back up?

Again same answer as before and if the enemy freezes thats a mistake on your part because you managed your wave poorly. The lane doesnt just magically freeze.

Approach to try and reset it? That means failing rule nr 1, if i die chances are a snowball that denies me any lategame starts.

Which applies to every jungler not just lee.

Sit back and just wait? I likely will not recover from a CS deficiency larger than 30 which any good freezer can accomplish, at some point the enemy laners will get strong enough to towerdive me if i keep giving up stuff......Give up dragons?

So when you freeze, you call it "giving up lane priority" when he freezes you're now behind in cs and get screwed over? Oddly enough you say your jungle can get invaded if you freeze or you lose objective control but when the reverse happens, you still cant roam? you still cant grab objectives? You cant get those dragons? Why do you think that?

Nope this all leads to a dead end, the only way around it is for me to smash lane suddenly so Lee cant react in time then freeze the wave and kill my opponents if they ever go near again.

False look at the above statement, no point rewriting since you can just refer to it now.

But at this point where i am much much stronger than my opponents i can hard shove in minions to their tower and then leave to go and do stuff like ward lee´s jungle and invade him to fight him 1v1 if i can win that.

And so here we are today, bunch of laners hating the junglers who are good and successfully decide the lanes for the laners and junglers hating laners who snowball before anyone can stop them and invade the jungles.......well more like hating their teammates for feeding but one does not exclude the other.

You're right about this part if you get ahead of your laner and how league is today, but that has nothing to do with lee. And ironically enough is the reason people hate the junglers. See if as a team we were to play safe lee would have a hard time snowballing as well as opening more chances for our jungler to gank and get himself snowballing to keep lee down. Problem is most people are thinking the way you think and trying to force themselves into a lead which actually has the opposite effect and gets them ganked by lee and then they sit there complaining about junglers rather than seeing their own faults and how their mindset led to the very thing they were trying to avoid.

ThefrostyvikingJan 21, 20201 votes

{quoted}

It shouldnt be a 1v2 if they're playing safe. Thats why you ward and dont open yourself to ganks.

You can only ward so much early so the actual answer you are giving here is "give up lane priority and play towards your tower".

You're making an assumption here. I said to play safe. That doesnt mean to hug your tower and not do anything. It means ward around you manage your wave properly and anticipate where lee can come from and your escape routes you can take. You technically should be doing these things against any jungler but if lee falls behind from failed ganks because you're doing this it affects him more than other junglers.

And how many of these things can actually be put into practice early game?

Manage minions? Not hard shove that is? Minions will be stuck in the middle of the lane at best.

Ward? I´ve got 1 ward, every lane has multiple points of access.

Junglers are extremely oppressive early because of things like these.

This is false because if lee is bot side or seen on the map then top side can apply pressure and your jungler can gank top or mid. Just because 1 jungler is stronger doesnt mean the other jungler is useless. Furthermore even if your jungler cant 1v1 laner + jungle can 2v2. If you have a jungle amumu and he cant 1v1 lee. If zed and veigar are mid as long as amumu hits one of the 2 with his bandage toss and zed drops his full combo on the stunned target, you auto win the 2v2. It gets even worse for lee if that matchup is level 6. Regardless tho this makes the statement false.

Aye it´s true that you have some leeway if he gets spotted on the other side of the map.

But what if he does not?

The rest of the scenario you describe is purely wishful thinking, it could easily be Zed ulting in on Veig only to get stunned as Lee comes in too while Amumu sits there unable to do anything.

Not like Veig would not put the cage on himself if anyone tries to engage.

A lane of ours gets strong? Strong lee camps them into oblivion and now they are not so strong anymore If a laner gets ahead they can 1v2 deleting lee first then killing the behind laner. Anyone who snowballs has a chance to dominate the game its not exclusive to lee.

Snowballing jungler with 3 kills is stronger than a laner with 1, and it´s easier to pickup kills as a jungler while denying farm and EXP is easier as a laner.

You said it yourself, "all it takes is me being vulnerable". Which is why especially against early game junglers you dont open yourself like that.

So i just give up the early game even if i am playing such a champ?

No they dont have to play forward they just have to manage their wave and their engages. Not be that person who always jumps on the enemy each time their in range and when they get baited and killed they blame their jungler. This would be just poor play by the renekton. You're not playing against bots, theres a human on the other side of the computer, they can take a step too far forward intentionally to get you to all-in them to your death. Again this isnt exclusive to lee any jungler can do this.

Wave management early is basically "do not push", that´s all there is to it, It takes the enemy being dumb enough to do that for you to be safe then....and chances are they have something in mind if they actually take it that far early.

1.Give up lane priority to avoid ganks, sacrifice EXP and gold for safety. 2.Do not go to help my jungle if my laners go to invade them since i am likely down on levels unless i am much, much closer. 3.Give up objectives like Dragon if you suffer too much during point 1 and 2

These are all not true. You can farm outside your tower and not give up map pressure. Sure theres small windows where you can be invaded but thats just it they're small windows. Thats the benefit of having a strong early game jungler. But while you can be pushed in and your jungler can be invaded you can also say you can be pushed in and your jungler can now gank your over extended enemy or he loses farm and backs off.

I sure as hell cant farm under tower if the enemy laner is bust ensuring the minions are in the middle of the lane to ensure they do not screw their own jungler over by denying ganking paths.

I answered this above, since you're misinterpreting playing safe as what you tell someone when theyre feeding their ass off.

Your answer is bullshit.

The wave management strategy for safety only applies if the enemy is pushing, if they dont they are freezing or keeping the wave neutral in the middle and you cant towerhug for safety and are thus exposed.

Again same answer as before and if the enemy freezes thats a mistake on your part because you managed your wave poorly. The lane doesnt just magically freeze.

Aye it does not magically freeze in a safe spot hence the idea to "manage the wave" for safety is bullshit, unless one side pushes the wave is always in the middle early, hence everyone are always exposed.

But it only takes it being in the middle most of the time, unless you have enough mobility and self peel which is why those picks have grown ever more popular relative to older less mobile ones.

Which applies to every jungler not just lee.

Hence every jungler has insane influence just by existing as long as they do not appear on the other side of the map.

So when you freeze, you call it "giving up lane priority" when he freezes you're now behind in cs and get screwed over? Oddly enough you say your jungle can get invaded if you freeze or you lose objective control but when the reverse happens, you still cant roam? you still cant grab objectives? You cant get those dragons? Why do you think that?

What you are suggesting is not freezing, it´s giving up the minion waves early to stand back and be safe, you being magically able to freeze the wave by the tower early does not happen unless your opponent is stupid.

You're right about this part if you get ahead of your laner and how league is today, but that has nothing to do with lee. And ironically enough is the reason people hate the junglers. See if as a team we were to play safe lee would have a hard time snowballing as well as opening more chances for our jungler to gank and get himself snowballing to keep lee down. Problem is most people are thinking the way you think and trying to force themselves into a lead which actually has the opposite effect and gets them ganked by lee and then they sit there complaining about junglers rather than seeing their own faults and how their mindset led to the very thing they were trying to avoid.

Your entire argument is based on this magical action of "wave management" to keep the minions outside your own tower early so that you remain safe which is an event that only occurs if your opponents are stupid and let you do that after pushing in to help you with it.

Hence to me it´s bullshit.

This kind of plan only ever works if you are dealing with inferior opponents all the time, it´s a strategy that makes you lose the lane for being too passive against someone who also knows how this works, it even makes you lose the game entirely if you are playing something early game centered that needs to take control early and brute force a lead.

Your way is too passive and will make you lose anytime the enemy team has a scaling pick that you need to absolutely destroy in lane but they also have a early aggro jungler since in this situation your solution is "play back safe and dont feed the enemy jungle no matter what"....even if this means failing to apply the necessary pressure to the enemy scaling one.

Chainman3Jan 20, 20201 votes

He has under a 50% winrate you think any of these players are going to agree with you tho? They push whatever agenda they want under false terms. Its been all over the boards for awhile now. The boards shouldnt be listened to as a reliable source of game knowledge.

3TWarriorJan 21, 20201 votes

he also has a 25% play rate and a nearly equal ban rate with a still respectable 48.5% win rate

he is the BASELINE for all jungle champions. If you can not compete with lee sin, you can not jungle. His win rate being low couldn't also have something to do with that his counters are META right now?

Elise Khazix JarvanIV Olaf hurt him big time and I do not know about ekko but probably, given a lot of his damages are in bases as an assassin... around five or more counters at once in the meta...how well do you think he would do when he is THE MOST COMMON JUNGLE PICK

Chainman3Jan 21, 20201 votes

None of those champions are counters to Lee sin. Especially Khazix and Elise both those matchups are skill matchups for Lee. I’m curious tho where did you get your counters from? A website? Or did you just pull them out of thin air based on what you believe?

3TWarriorJan 21, 20201 votes

apparently only khazix and jarvan are skill matchups(despite actually countering him) but Elise, Ekko and Olaf are complete counter picks.

U.gg shows how much a win-rate varies as their method of counters, but that is irrelevant if the champion has an average win rate against everything

as just an example, Miss Fortune is listed as a lee sin counter despite her having no influence on him and instead being a powerful mid/late game pick

now, back to figures. Ekko, Olaf and elise have him consistently in negative win rates and are his most common matchups with as of the current season, over 25% of his matchups at around average 14,400 matches out of 54000 (if you want to add every figure in diamond, be my guest) https://u.gg/lol/champions/leesin/matchups?rank=diamond_plus

Jarvan is slightly weak to lee sin, but that more so has to do with lee sin's versatility overall. Come late game, his ultimate allows him to disrupt the opponents and place them in favorable positions for allies compared to jarvan's wall which can do the same but is limited by position and lack of dashes/flash

Khazix suffers from the same. Although khazix bests lee in the early game, he has no utility later and relies on niche situations to get an upper hand

if you think that win rate is the only thing to do with my assertions so far, think again as all of the previous picks are early game powerhouses that outperform lee within their window and can best him in 1 v 1 before he hits level 6 to the extent that he can not farm safely.

NitenGaleJan 20, 20205 votes

Lee Sin's insec is him ward hopping behind enemy lines, and kicking them into his team. Not Lee Sin raw ulting someone, which sets them up for a Q that can't miss, which leads to death shortly after. So no, he's right.

And Qiyana is a special case, because Riot made her Q autocorrect to the target of her E, so she doesn't have to aim anything. And once you're stunned, she can chain cc you with ult while also chunking you into oblivion with it (and anyone else unfortunate enough to be near the terrain she ulted).

GilxeNJan 20, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin's insec is him ward hopping behind enemy lines, and kicking them into his team. Not Lee Sin raw ulting someone, which sets them up for a Q that can't miss, which leads to death shortly after. So no, he's right.

And Qiyana is a special case, because Riot made her Q autocorrect to the target of her E, so she doesn't have to aim anything. And once you're stunned, she can chain cc you with ult while also chunking you into oblivion with it (and anyone else unfortunate enough to be near the terrain she ulted).

Qiyana for my personal complaint was only too high numbers, even for her to land those ults requires a really good positioning, and great decision making to abuse their bad disposition. (I guess maybe, idk I am not playing her, but one stun has to go, but in return she should get something).

And you are wrong, insec is not only about ward hoping, its about all that kit usage to your advantage.

DeνiruchiJan 20, 20201 votes

{quoted}

You think insecs are easy?

Go que 20 matches in a row as Lee Sin and post the results in this topic.

When all champs has dashes, mobility or overhelming CC it's not that easy to perform some quick setups.

I think the sad reality of what you just tried to say and what people complain about Lee is that it wasn't meant to be an insec. He does that combo as a regular play without pointing a specific direction or maneuvers for big plays. His damage and scaling is so high now that he just point and clicks you with R and then follows up with a combo he can't miss unless he brainfarts on the spot, doesn't have to do mental gymnastics to pull of a play and is not that "hard to play" champion anymore.

Modl Ryden lJan 20, 20204 votes

Lee Sin, yes.

Qiyana, partially.

BrokenRayquazaJan 20, 20202 votes

As a qiyana player her damage needs to be leveled out from her ulti to her other abilities. Right now her late game is not anywhere close to what it should be because her ulti oneshots but her other abilities have crap scaling (she can still kill but not fast enough for an adc to not fight back)

StormBladeMasterJan 20, 20202 votes

I'm not against a Qiyana ulti nerf but you need to buff her base spells. Her scalings are pure horrible. There is no point of playing an assassin who can't deal dmg.

Her passive deals 15-83 + 55% bonus AD. It's not that signifiant but it's a passive so it's okay.

Her Q deals 60-160 + 90% bonus AD. It's shitty, especially when your W isn't a damage spell. So she has 2 Q and one E but the dmg isn't good because it's bonus AD. That means in early game, you have 0 scaling. You need to buy tons of AD before the dmg become signifiant.

The bonus damage on the stone element is interesting but not enough : 36-96 + 54% bonus AD isn't big. It's okay for an element bonus but the base dmg of the spell need to be buffed.

Her W isn't a damage spell.

Her E deals 60-200 + 70% bonus AD. Same thing, it's not big.

Her ulti deals 100/170/240 + 170% bonus AD and + 10% of target max health.

The ultimate deals crazy dmg while the rest of her kit is useless and don't make dmg. For an assassin she is dissapointing. Most of the time you end up being an "ulti bot".

**I would changes the ratios and the base damage : **

Passive : 10-180 + 55% bonus AD so the element change will be more rewarded.

Q : 80-240 + 100% total AD and not "bonus".

E : 70-220 + 80% bonus AD

R : 150/225/300 + 110% bonus AD, removed stun.

And i agree for Lee sin. His ultimate deals too much.

3TWarriorJan 21, 20201 votes

not that I disagree, but does she need too much when she has dashes for mage-range? If she gets to be too powerful, she becomes an AD caster, which is basically not supposed to exist due to it invalidating the concept of a mage

all of her abilities are minimum caitlyn range

StormBladeMasterJan 21, 20201 votes

Qiyana E + W = same range as Akali; Diana or Zed dash. Why do you complain ? When i see Diana pressing Q E + ulti and deleting someone, why people are overeacting on Qiyana ? Both of her dash are small dashes. her W is 7s CD in early.

Her dashes aren't instant, you have time to see her approaching you. If you are not around a wall, you can stay and attack her. She can't kill someone only with her base spells unless you are in very early game. Basically as a mage, all you have to do is to play safe until lvl 8-9 and go armor.

It's easier to play safe vs Qiyana than Zed. Zed just press W and tp on you with his R. Zed W + R range is way higher than Qiyana.

Btw Fizz have the same thing as her but with more damage. Fizz Q + E is also 2 dashes and it's make way more dmg than Qiyana.

Her Q can be dogded if you stay behind minions. Her E Q combo in not possible to dogde but you can't prevent her from E by keeping your distances.

Her powerspike is lvl 3. Play safe in early game and she will fall very hard because all of her AD ratio are bonus AD ratio, so she needs to buy a lot of AD to be effective otherwise she is an ulti bot.

Her Q range isn't that high, Caitlyn range seriously ? What do you think of Zed shuriken or Diana Q then ? + you can block her Q damage, it's don't go trought minions.

Do you have play Qiyana ? or do you have played vs a good Qiyana and maybe you tought she was OP but she is bad. She is an ulti bot. She is played by pros because of her ulti, nothing more. There nothing good on her except ulti and Q with water element.

Make somes games with her, you will see after lvl 7-8, your damage is decreasing very hard. Unless you can get 20/0 in early game, it's very hard to carry a game.

A bad matchup is guaranted to make you useless from early to late. Everytime someone played Qiyana in my team, she was useless.

NitenGaleJan 21, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Her passive deals 15-83 + 55% bonus AD. It's not that signifiant but it's a passive so it's okay.

Her Q deals 60-160 + 90% bonus AD. It's shitty, especially when your W isn't a damage spell. So she has 2 Q and one E but the dmg isn't good because it's bonus AD. That means in early game, you have 0 scaling. You need to buy tons of AD before the dmg become signifiant.

**I would changes the ratios and the base damage : **

Passive : 10-180 + 55% bonus AD so the element change will be more rewarded.

Q : 80-240 + 100% total AD and not "bonus".

E : 70-220 + 80% bonus AD

R : 150/225/300 + 110% bonus AD, removed stun.

And i agree for Lee sin. His ultimate deals too much.

Her Q's damage is fine. The ratio can't be that high on it because she gets 2 OF THEM in a span of like a second. Q, W, Q is a thing, and when you weave her autos in between Q casts (like you're supposed to) you get the average Qiyana who does too much damage.

StormBladeMasterJan 21, 20201 votes

No it's not, it's 90% bonus AD, that mean if you buy 100 AD, you only get 90 on this spell. It's low but low!

And your base AD doesn't count. So it's make Qiyana dependent on being 10/0 before mid/lategame because you need twice the AD of other assassins to be effective as them. On lethality items, you gain 60-70 AD only, so you need 3-4 items before this spell become dangerous because your opponent gains HP per level.

In mid/late, her Q don't deal dmg anymore. Don't forget the base dmg is 60-160. 2 Q = 320 base damage only and it's at lvl 9. 320 base damage is low for an assassin especially at lvl 9. People will have 1200-1300 HP ? So you use E Q W Q and you only burst for 40% of their HP ? It's disappointing.

An assassin isn't supposed to autos a lot. In mid game, you can't place 3-4 autos, otherwise you are bursted by the enemy team. In early it's okay, you can auto because you are solo on the lane, you aren't that squishy... Yeah in early i can place autos attack. But in mid and lategame, i need to be fast. I don't have time to place 5-6 autos when i'm squishy and when my job is to be an assassin.

Btw in all games i played Qiyana, the enemies took armor. I played vs a Lux with barrier and Zhonia first item, it's unkillable. Basically when you play Qiyana, you are praying that your opponent won't build armor because your ratios are so shiity that you need to be 20/0 before mid or lategame to do something.

If you can't get feed with her, you become a "ulti bot". You are waiting for ulti because your others spells don't deal dmg.

I mean why playing Qiyana when you have Talon ? It's way easier to kill someone and get feed with Talon than Qiyana. The only reason of why she is a pain is her ultimate. A good Qiyana ultimate can destroy a teamfight.

But it's useless to play a champ only for the ultimate, i want base abilities to be effective too and it's not the case on Qiyana. I hate being an ulti bot just because i can't kill someone with my Q even tought i have make some kills in early but it's feel never enough. Ultimate being 60-70% of my damage isn't a good thing.

F1uttershy2075Jan 20, 20201 votes

YEa you can leave Qiyana out of it.. poor girl was my main jungle till riot gutted the hell out of her..

now she can barely clear

Lee just needs to combo.. honestly if he can't combo then hes pretty useless