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I don't think the Graves nerfs are going to solve the main problem.

YoungSirJ0ey·3/31/2017, 5:19:08 PM·21 votes·1,852 views

So Graves is getting the MR removed from True Grit. That's a step in the right direction, and will certainly make him more squishy, but I don't think it solves the whole problem.

Before I go any further,I'd like to point out that while I do play Graves sometimes, I'm not the best Graves NA, and I'm probably wrong about some of what I'm about to say. Feel free to correct me.

As I see it, Graves is basically an assassin. No CC, lots of frontloaded damage, high mobility. But he's also rewarded for sticking into extended fights. This, combined with his Black Cleaver synergy, makes him good at dueling as well, which isn't inherently flawed, it's basically the entire idea of Bruisers/Divers. But he's also ranged, and has abilities and basic attacks with AoE, so he can also teamfight well. Additionally, his safe and fast first clear means he's strong early game, but he also scales up extremely well.

So he's strong early, mid, and late, and can teamfight well, duel well, and assassinate well. Something has to go, and something is going, he'll now need to actually build MR or else die to mages, but in my opinion, that's not enough, not least because he can just build one of the 1800(read: 3) ADC items that give MR. I think they should just get rid of True Grit entirely.

This would primarily impact his early clear and his dueling, making him far less general a pick. I'm not saying it alone would balance him, it would probably bring him down to Azir-in-SoloQ tier, and if they were to do this, he would also need compensation buffs, or some different effect on his E, like bonus attack speed until his next reload or something, but I think it would make him more balanceable overall.

But of course, I might be entirely wrong. Maybe the MR removal will be enough. Maybe it won't. This is just a thing to consider and tell me I'm an idiot for writing.

23 Comments

ModAcademy Kayn3/31/2017, 9:38:03 PM4 votes

See what I think is funny, is that he's still not winning extended fights as much. Look at the Graves winrate over game duration. If he was good in extended fights, why would his winrate spike in the early game like most assassins do, but not go above 50% like most Marksmen do come late game.

So he's not actually strong late game, when people have defenses. If his main strength is burst, which it is, he relies on killing people fast and instantly.

So what I'm saying here is, Burst is his strongest part of his kit, but that's where it stops. If he wants to continue having burst from Autos alone, he needs to be in melee range. If he didn't have some tool to survive that melee range combat (like most Melee's have), than he can't even function as a character, against the tanks and Fronterliners, he becomes a worse ADC with worse range.

Dominick Destine3/31/2017, 11:46:02 PM2 votes

I already butcher Graves with Evelynn .

This will just make him even easier to stomp. GOOD. Now nerf Lee and Yasuo.

Big Lincoln3/31/2017, 7:57:21 PM2 votes

graves isn't good late game

Azteryz3/31/2017, 9:45:44 PM1 votes

imo i believe that the mr removal is a good direction because

graves with his terrible range and unreliable autos that could be blocked if done well is deserving of the dmg and aoe naturally but taking away his tanky ish stats would would make the former pointless without having some way to get in their face without getting nuked

plus in his lore his gameplay is that he is a thick skined badass with a gun who gets tougher and pushes harder the more he fights

it being only against ad with his armor imo is a good choice

if its not then follow up changes will definetly happen or the changes you suggested (i mained graves pre rework a lot and post rework not as much so i would enjoy the return of an attack speed buff on his e)

Aseraan4/1/2017, 3:18:17 AM1 votes

In my eyes the graves rework is the problem would revert it in the moment it hit live but nah let the stupid sht stay and call it Graves...

Vallalan4/1/2017, 7:25:27 AM1 votes

the champ has literally received nothing but nerfs and is somehow still one of the most broken pieces of shit in the game. the kit is just too good for jungling.

Shaydrox4/1/2017, 9:16:55 AM1 votes

The problem as in when he oneshots squishies faster than a Zed does? XD No seriously that AA + Q + R doing 2k damage should kinda stop at this point, he's supposed to be strong in longer fights right?

PapaGreg214/1/2017, 3:58:45 PM1 votes

As a Shyvana main, it is confusing that Graves not only clears just as quickly and arguably more healthy than I can, but also that he is able to invade me and consistently outduel me.

JoeMG3/31/2017, 7:04:18 PM1 votes

Not a bad idea. His early clear should definitely be toned down. I'd say he could use a few more tiny nerfs to his base stats but that could be overkill.

TricolorStar4/1/2017, 4:10:04 PM1 votes

I'm just baffled they let Graves stay this broken (and he will continue to be after the nerf), but dumpster'd Kindred even though they're in the same family (ranged AD jungler. It's cuz he's a fan favorite, I know. But seriously, why does he get to by hyper-mobile, high-damage, high-survivability, and high-utility? It makes no sense.

At least with Kindred their mobility was situational and their ultimate affected enemies as well. Graves is just overloaded.

xX Gatekeeper Xx3/31/2017, 7:44:25 PM1 votes

They gutted graves on his shit rework. They coulda just created a whole new champion but were to stupid to. These last 2 seasons are making me question the education level that rito is hiring at. Probably offering lower pay for some drop outs to point there game in a whole new direction.

TheSnacken3/31/2017, 8:22:08 PM1 votes

Actually I really like your suggestion. Rewards good gameplay (using quick draw for your second shot), gives him distinct strengths and weaknesses, and doesn't totally gut his gameplay. I'd say give him a VERY small buff to his base resistances, but other than that.... Solid.

I will say, though, that there IS a distinct weakness, its just not great right now, or enough in general. Tankier dusruptors, like Thresh and Alistar. Anyone who can muscle through his burst and stop him from winding up generates an advantage. The problem is the picks either aren't strong, or can't do both and still take him down before he can recover. This is especially exacerbated by Death's Dance, Maw of Malmortius, and Sterak's Gage.

... Whoops, didn't mean to tangent about his gamestate.