Luden's Echo and the numbers behind it.

Piltover Customs··2 votes·4,316 views

First let me preface this with the fact that it's my first time doing this for league of legends. I kept talking with friends about the item and wanted to share what I've came up with. I've not did a lot of research into other works so don't hold it against me. I'm open to constructive criticism and will admit when I am wrong and give credit where it is due. Now lets jump into the post!

TL;DR: Luden's Echo has an extremely gold efficient passive(early to mid game). Coupled with low CDR abilities on champions + elixir of sorcery is one of the biggest spikes you can get. Great for wave clear and tower seiging. Late-game, the passive falls off drastically.

Luden's Echo and the numbers behind it.

First let us refresh everyone with the item: Luden's Echoitem 3285 120 Ability Power 7% Movement Speed

UNIQUE Passive: Gain Charges upon moving or casting. At 100 charges, the next spell hit expends all charges to deal 100 (+15% AP) bonus magic damage to up to 4 targets on hit.

Recharge Rate: 20 Per Spell cast 6-10 per second of movement (no boots, may be tied into how far/fast you move?)

At first glance, this item seems to be awesome. Some people get it as their first item. Some people get it as a last item. We will explore the benefits of this item (mainly the passive).

Lets start with the fact that all champions start with a minimum of 30 Magic Resistance at level 1 (32.1 is the highest). Stat gain for "most" melees goes up to 53.4 at level 18. (Bard/Gnar/MaoKai/Poppy/Shen/Singed/Yasuo do not gain). 30 MR and 53.4 MR equate into 23.1 and 34.82% Damage reduction. Standard**(1)** Magic Resist glyphs give 1.34 each for a total of 12.06. Taking this into account level 1 players will have 42.06 Magic Resistance, for a total of 29.61% Damage Reduction.

Luden's Echo will do 119~ damage if it is the only item with ability power purchased (Includes bonus % from Masteries). The maximum this will do to a single**(2)** target will be 91.511 damage (0 Bonus MR on a champion 0 magic penetration).

Okay now that the basic math is taken care of lets venture into the land of theorycrafting.

The good thing about the passive on this item is that it replenishes fairly quickly and can hit up to 4 targets. Taking this into consideration it seems to start having some good output. In reality it's rare you will get good opportunities that this will hit 4 champions. Usually it's 1 champion + 3 minions or any combination of minions/champions. If you were to only attack and not move it would take 5 spell cast until it recharged. Moving while casting greatly lowers this.

As a first item you are gaining the poke/burst (however you want to look at it) as well as gaining movement speed. This is great for roaming/harassing. If you are using, for example, Katarina, you can have the passive charges up after a QWE combination (60/100 Charges and with the moving around you will be doing, by the time your combination is up again, you will have the charges). Effectively have a free 92 damage every 5-10 seconds. If you are not casting spells on a champion you will have 92 free damage every 10 seconds if you cast when it's off cooldown. We will call it an 11 second cool down for future reference (Travel Time + Reaction Time + 10 Seconds for it to recharge).

Every champion has different AP coefficients. In order to figure out the true gold value of this passive it would take a while (feel free to do this for your champions and it can be added). That being said we will use some generic AP coefficients. 20% AP 25% AP 30% Ap With the coefficients we can determine how much of a gold value this item gives in terms of damage. In order to get 92 bonus damage on a single target with a coeffecient of: 20% - 460 AP 25% - 368 AP 30% - 307 AP

Using these numbers we can determine that it would take 23 to 15.35 amplyfying tomes to increase your AP by that much to get the damage. At the highest coefficient the value of Amplifying Tome's would equal 6677~ the item cost 3100, making it very efficient.

In effect you are gaining 6677~ gold value every time you use the passive on this item.

Now let's begin to start adding some more Ability Power.

In order to gain an additional 100 damage on the item you would need 666.7 ability power. Masteries give 5% ability power so you would in essence only need 633.365, very easily doable late game.

As the game progresses, people gain more magic resistance and more health. The value of this item start to diminish for how much it actually does. Doubling the damage for it's passive cost more gold than it would be to buy AP + Magic Penetration + CDR.

Where this item shines

The item really shines with early game harass/burst. With the extreme cost efficiency of the item it is beneficial in almost every aspect. With the burst that it puts out early it can help secure those kills that almost get away. The movement speed increase on it allows for dodging / roaming better. Wave clearing/Tower seiging.

Where it lacks Make the effects more noticable.

Best coupled with Low CDR casters Elixir of Sorcery item 2139

(1) - Standard Magic Resist is the glyphs (blue) runes that most players run when versing an AP champion.

(2) - Single target is used as the least common factor when determining numbers as it is the lowest damage this will proc.

16 Comments

Saianna3 votes

Just wanna say: Ludens echo is more than strong with champions with Dot damage (malz, brand, cass) or minions (zyra/heim/shaco)

Also of highly spammable champions like Ezreal. That thing just kills.

SpongebobIsLife2 votes

I feel, the base damage of Luden's echo should scale with level, because the damage it outputs late game, as you said, isn't as noticeable. If they did that, it'd be a much better item, although I do still rush it on certain champs like katarina and post morellocron arhi.

Piltover Customs1 votes

I could see that as well. Not sure how how much scaling it should have though to make it "balanced". Late game the only ones without 50% reduction (100 mr) would be ADC's in lower divisions (and even some higher). As is you can figure it does 200 damage late game pre-mitigation.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

maybe increase it to 150 or 200 at lvl 18?

Piltover Customs1 votes

Hmm I think it might start creeping into the part where they want information easily attainable. By putting it at 100 + 15% AP + scaling level it starts getting a little confusing on numbers but if we were to go with it we could look at it as 100 + (5-8 x Champ Level + 15% AP) this would give it a little more burst early game though and that's where I think we would fall off on them decided to do it. As it is, it's already strong early game this would make it "broken" to an extent.

I believe the 120 AP + movement speed late-game makes up for the fact that it's passive damage falls off, and is probably how they consider it balanced.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

hmm, you're probably right.

Player of Games2 votes

Good post.

Piltover Customs1 votes

Thanks. Re-reading it it kind of feels a little clunky to me, maybe something i could work on if i decide to actually do this for more items.

MrPerson102 votes

You're pretty much on-point with how it all goes down, except the recharge rate isn't based on time - it's based on the distance travelled, similarly to item 3087 passive for ADs.

The mid-game spike will be great once it gets out of the stage where people are only really grabbing it later as an experimental item as most are already very comfortable going with other itemization routes

Personal experience so far, I've found it has great synergy with Diana Ahri TwistedFate Katarina, I have yet to try it on many others.

Piltover Customs1 votes

Yeah I mentioned that it was with no boots and figured with higher it would replenish faster. According to someone over on Reddit (where I also posted this), Cassiopeia it's great with as her E (when targets are poisoned) increases the speed that it charges up at.Vladimir as well.

1 4m 4 n00b2 votes

What other AP item are you going to build that's going to give you 120 AP AND 100 +AP% more damage every few spells?

The answer is none. Anyone who doesn't find a way to abuse this item is missing out on a lot of automated damage.

Way more fun and I think better than DFG ever was.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

I got Luden's on Cassiopeia in ARAM today. It felt amazing. Sometimes the passive would proc on like the third tick of damage (if I casted again or was moving), when enemies were running away... and it would burn/slow them as well.

Piltover Customs1 votes

Lovely to know. From what i've been hearing, it's pretty strong on her :)

Piltover Customs1 votes

I would love for anyone who reads to do some debate/theory crafting with.

Maybe you know more than I do. Maybe you have other ideas with how it is best used. Maybe I am wrong.

Lets air this out and get this item dissected so we know it in and out.

LoRdJeSuS69694201 votes

Doesn't the AP scaling that it has keep it relevant late game? 15% ratio for, say, 700 AP, would be 105 bonus damage, so 205 total. The damage it deals also scales with magic penetration and whatnot as well, so it scales in that regard. Late game you are also more likely to be getting procs on multiple opponents at once, effectively doubling/tripling/quadrupling the damage output you get from it.

Honestly it strikes me as more of a mid-late game item, since I don't think it is as good to rush as other core AP items (morello/athene's, rod of ages, deathcap, voidstaff), but I'm not sure how the math actually works out. Would be interesting to compare damage gain from a deathcap as second item vs. a luden's as second item.

Piltover Customs1 votes

Glad you brought it up. Say you have 700 ap and 105 bonus damage on it for 205. Even late game you are still looking anywhere from 25-50% damage reduction (even taking into account your magic penetration and enemy magic resistances). Best case scenario you will be hitting 100% of it on an AD Carry.

Passive damage would be anywhere from 100-205 with majority being about 150-175. The passive's damage doesn't scale super great.

Late-game/mid-game when you are team fighting/seiging it would start to be cost effecient. Wave clear/poke you get from it would help out. But remember people can dodge/you can miss/it can hit minions still.

By the time late game rolls around you aren't looking for the passive damage anymore from it (except on little to no MR targets). You are just hoping for the little bit of poke you would normally do.

As you have 700 AP your normal abilities would be gaining as much if not more bonus damage in the poke as well.

Item is super great so long as people don't have MR or tons of health or both. The damage just doesn't ramp up high enough late game and if you are trying to poke you will most likely be hitting their tank/front line rather than squishies (of course there is always exceptions).

The thing to take away here The damage that you get from the passive early is when it is strongest and since you can get it off SO often early it's damage outways every other item.

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