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@Riot Meddler and or Riot, let's talk about Heimerdinger.

Piltover Customs·2/26/2018, 6:40:15 PM·44 votes·3,323 views

I'm trying to get some answers on Heimerdinger.

Specifically:

  1. How has the RQ nerf hit him, according to Riots Metrics, it's been a bit where he's been weaker now so should be able to get some information there?
    (Heimerdinger mains reddit/discord obviously disliked it and felt it was too much).

  2. Now that Stopwatch has been pushed to 10 minutes instead of 6 (30 seconds after level 6 on average) will the nerf be revisited? It was stated that Stopwatch was one of the reasons it made him stronger (performing too well) and thus deserved a 50% nerf on his Ultimate. The 10 minutes is after laning phase now (let us be real, by then the first tower has already fallen in 90% of the games).

  3. Was the RQ to try and force him to Mid/Support (some mains enjoy him there) to keep him from bullying top lane? (Although his last changes were supposed to stop him from bullying top...)? [Also to note, if that was the case his Mid Lane win dropped DRASTICALLY in the recent patch]

  4. Is it to force him to play one style top lane now? **Banner/ZZ'rot top is coming back (and Riot notices this as he was part of the ZZ'Rot bundle), thus causing less interaction with his lane. **

  5. Is it to stop Heimer from seeing any play since RIOT does not know how to really balance/rework him?

In a recent Dev Corner talk, Singed was talked about having a high learning curve and a playstyle that was different from anyone else. I have not seen him get nerfed near as hard as Heimer. It feels like Heimerdinger is punished for having a different playstyle than most champs (much like singed, but actually getting the hammer). For the record, Singed has over 3x the play rate and a higher win rate and is less interactive with the lane/game.

Quote from Meddler: "Heimer was overperforming, including at high Elo" "RQ damage made it excessively hard to all in him in lane, even in situations where that should be an appropriate play"

I'm not trying to say people are smart, on average people are dumb as a box of rocks. There are plenty of ways to counter Heimerdinger (unlike singed).

  1. Ranged
  2. Wave clear
  3. Doran's Shield
  4. Doran's Shield + New Resolve rune (absolutely broken)
  5. Actual items (Adaptive Helm, Spectre's Cowl/Spirit Visage, Locket, Merc Treads, Hexdrinker)
  6. Focusing Turrets
  7. Smiting Turret + auto during a gank

and just better gameplay/scaling.

The only appropriate play to all in Heimerdinger in lane was to kill turrets and then fight him. If you try to all-in him with 3 turrets up (AND HIS ULTIMATE available) then it was not an appropriate play. Heimer is already at a disadvantage against melee (they do more damage versus his turrets).

As for Heimer overperforming, sure stopwatch probably had a lot to do with it. Also the fact that it's enthusiasts/mains playing him during early season rather than people randomly picking him up (this is where I would love to see actual metrics from RIOT to disbunk me).

Some OP.gg stats:

Heimer Top Win Rate Average 7.15 - 8.2 = 51.62% Heimer Top Win Rate 8.3/8.4 = 49.33 / 49.78 Heimer Top Pick Rate Average = 0.93% (To note The highest he got was from patch 7.17 to 7.24 at roughly 2% and been declining since). Heimer Mid Win Rate went from average of 50% to 45.79% !!!!

24 Comments

MerloJohn2/27/2018, 1:06:00 PM17 votes

I'm OTP Heimer. Lately the donger is struggling a lot versus a large number of match ups: both mages and assassins. He has a play rate of 0.3% and win rate 50%, 51%. This WR is absolutely low considering all people playing him are One trick ponies, these number explain perfectly how much he is underpowered. People MUST learn how to play against. Heisendong, the highest ELO Heimerdinger player admits Heimer is shit. I think he has a unique style in LOL and almost noone can play him. Here there are some points to think about:

  • While the average midlaner would be able to play a mage, actually he won't be able to successfully play Heimerdinger. This because he is...underpowered.
  • He has 4 skillshots, just one CC. This unique CC is one of the most hard CC to land in the game, except in 2 cases: versus melee aggression and in chain CC.
  • At level 6 a full rotation QWER does not allow to kill his full life opponent while almost all mages are able to: Veigar, Velkoz, Lux and many others.
  • Even if he should be the perfect pusher, his midgame waveclear is poor compared with many champions, also assassins: for examble is almost impossible to outpush an Ekko who has a Q every 5 second. This is incredible...
  • In mid game, every wave you lose one or two turrets because enemies can hit abilities every 5, 6 second (or less sometimes) and clear both turrets and minions. Turrets have 16 sec cooldown each instead.
  • At level 6 you are still able to outpush your opponent, even if you don't want, and you are easily gankable and killable. This is his worse contraddiction pushing without escaping. Before the nerf you still had some chance to double kill or kill the 2 engagers, now not anymore.

I think Riot nerfed him because many people complained about him and his turrets. His ban rate was almost 0 though. The point is that since he has very low play rate, people don't learn how to play against and they just complain. Riot should work on him and here I have some suggestion to think about:

  • Missiles W with a slow;
  • Passive with scaling MS with turrets rank level;
  • Q turret cast range increased;
  • Turrets laser triggered with only 1 rocket (to help wave clear);
  • Q W E cooldowns halved after ultimate R;
  • Deactivate turrets if need (in order to freeze lane);
  • R Q (mega turret) damage increased with allied champions around. This would help him for his weak field: teamfights.
  • R Q slow is nothing: increase this slow.

I think that a 50%WR Heimerdinger player deserves a higher win rate.

strivegodx3/1/2018, 8:01:20 AM9 votes

Look at twitch he performed way to good in almost every elo, and he his E got nerfed quite hard, it was justified because press the attack was way to strong and him and they also nerfed the rune but now on the PBE they buff twitch's E Spell aswell as Press the attack, why cant they also buff the donger a lil bit? i mean his toplane 2v1 or even 1v1 potential dropped so hard, like idk .

Buff the Donger Heimerdinger

Frederick West3/1/2018, 8:20:29 AM6 votes

Completely agree. I'm a OTP Heimer - I love his unique playstyle and turret system. I haven't played since they gutted his ult turret, but still check every now and then to see if they've buffed him into a spot where it doesn't feel like you're handicapping yourself by picking him. The relevant points have been covered such as the majority of people who play him are OTP's so will be better at the champion than the average....when the winrate is still below 50% while the players who play him are generally more experienced with him it says a lot about the champion. He's not good now at all. I used to enjoy playing him as support too but the ult turret nerf hit him even harder here as you rely on base damages more due to not building as much AP.

FirewaterDM3/1/2018, 4:09:58 PM6 votes

OTP Heimer here, Nerfs didn't make him AS bad as pre-rework but they killed a good chunk of what made him better after it.

The nerf does need some evaluation/something to look over as I feel it did three things that have honestly made him nearly as bad as he was pre-rework. The first is defense/ganking capabilities- yes R-Q one shots, or 2 v 1's were annoying BUT it was his one line of defense to ganks, As heimer even with proper warding and other counter measures, the auto push capabilities of turrets will always put you in a dangerous position in terms of the lane. The reason the old R->Q was so good (besides obvious 2 v 1's where the jungler/laner had mistakes) was that the fact that it allowed Heimer to get away or have some sort of deterrence factor- specifically even IF you used it early it was useable enough so that you could get them to back off enough to run or reposition. Current R-Q doesn't allow for this, AND the reduced damage ensures that 2 v 1's are unlikely unless honestly your opponents are too greedy/fuck up. One area where this could be adjusted is if Riot is going to keep the damage gutted, make the slow stronger so at the bare minimum Heimer can escape.

Leads to the second problem of escapes. Heimer has 0 unless you have flash, or Protobelt (which is mediocre at best on him). The current movement speed passive is a joke to any champ that has a dash or some way to get close to Heimer, not to mention that the obvious counterplay (kill turrets) removes the boost immediately. In fact the only times where the boost seems to work is after a Rylai's is purchased. Point is that he is not outrunning or escaping because he is still just as immobile as he was post rework (I miss the old passive tbh because at least it gave him something for being so immobile.) Outside of those options, the only other option is his E, which is a hard to land skill shot, that will only hit one person unless they are clumped together, and its cooldown is so long you only get one in a normal length gank. Even then, simiarily to the R-Q slow a partial hit is not enough to save you.

This would be reasonable to deal with if all turrets, including the R-Q weren't so easy to destroy. Smite 1 shots reg turrets and Smite plus an auto or spell kills the upgraded turret. This cuts heimer's damage AND mobility by a significant amount. Heimer ONLY isn't one of the easiest champs to gank in the game without flash is because of misplays and misperceptions about turrets. As others have stated, Getting ANY MR item first make the turrets tickle champs unless they sit in them for ridiculous amounts of time, or the Heimer is already ahead. Sheen + Auto oneshots turrets incredibly early. Most mages can do the same of ability + auto, and the longer range/waveclear means that your turrets get virtually one shot. This is bad for ganks as WITH proper setup the other laner can easily kill off all turrets before heimer has an acceptable number, and honestly 1 or 2 turrets aren't enough to survive a gank without landing a E -> W on someone.

Seperately from his inability to deal with ganks outside of other player failure, the fact of the matter is that there's a bunch of misperceptions on his dominance on carries. Legit his best point IS shoving people under turret all game unless they get help (which the problem to that is the whole inability to stop ganks thing.) But even for Melee carries or Tanks, Heimer at best goes even. Yes they lose farm and will be behind 20-30 CS or more, but the point is that tanks outscale/stop caring after spectre's cowl or hell the first completed MR item, same for bruisers or AD carries with Hexdrinker. I get that people don't like this champ but the whole reason that he's terrorizing top lane (kind of) is because he's unviable mid. Heimer does not beat a single mage in midlane because they either outrange him, have better waveclear or destroy turrets/burst heimer far faster than he does to them. And honestly most do all 3 of these things. In the midlane he is outclassed because everyone does the job better. Hell you are better off fighting an assassin even with the far smaller track for error simply because it's easier to start the bullying/ability to fight them EVEN if they also blow you up instantly if you mess up. But IF heimer was ever adjusted to be viable mid, then maybe we wouldn't have to take him top. Not to mention new AP items seem kind of meh on him other than new Ludens'.

IF the R -> Q change is going to stay, some ideas to help him otherwise could be

increasing the slow on R -> Q/Partial hits of E, Reducing Cooldown of W and E (mostly E) Increasing range of W (and maybe E) making the R -> Q turret last longer, make turrets MORE durable (health/resistance based) increase the MS passive around turrets OR give him a different one improve hitbox of E stun Make R -> W worth something again, hell even if unintentional the bug that helped it burst objectives was far better than actually using it to kill someone IF immobile either increase his health or defenses to deal with his ease of gankability.

Obviously these all should not be done at once, BUT even one or two of them (Less CDR on W/E + either more durable turrets OR better passive) would go a long way to maybe helping him go back to mid where he belongs.

The Cal3/1/2018, 1:09:52 PM5 votes

< otp heimer.

tldr: nerf was fine if other areas buffed.

i see most people hated the nerf but i can see the intentions behind it and i didnt mind the changes and actually mostly agree with it, what i do not agree on is not making other areas on heimer stronger , all this has done is push his over all capabilities down, remember its not just a one hundred dmg nerf at 6, it shoots at least twice so thats at least 200, the grenade was used to proc another shot so thats 300, that much of a nerf on a stationary turret takes away the need to kite it or stay away from it hence why tanks can just run through the damage and rip my little cecil b. heimerdinger a new a**, this change would be acceptable if again other aspects of heim were made stronger but nothing was done.

tldr: stopwatch hurt heimer all lanes as he kinda needed it vs some ad matchups.

on the stopwatch change this also hurt heimer a lot, vs ad bruisers/assassins some would rush a zhonyas and this stopwatch would be a lifeline when lvl 6 was reached but now with the 10 minute push makes heim mostly a free kill as he doesn't have the damage and now survivability to fend of a early all in from strong meta fighters.

tldr: some small buffs to counterbalance, ult Q duration and hp would be nice.

i suggest to balance him buffing other areas which can be varied to be honest but any damage buffs i feel would need to include some base damage values to pick up his early. the passive can push for another 5% to increase his survivability also, but i would like most of all would be a buff on the hp and time the ult Q stays up, maybe from 8 to atleast 12, this would not affect much early as you wouldnt usually be in a position to be affected by the full duration but mid-late game where teamfights start breaking out this can push this unique playstyle forward even more making it (maybe) reasonable to play safe through a weak early to hold on to the mid late power spikes.

and to clear this up NO HEIMER MAIN WANTS HIM TO BE OP AS THIS WOULD MAKE HIM LESS UNIQUE AND MORE META EWWWWWWW. we all just want him balanced :) Heimerdinger

Crumudgeon3/3/2018, 9:51:15 AM5 votes

Anybody who believes heimer is fine is delusional. He was finally in a playable position before the nerf, and then without logical reason, his ult turret was gutted.

Let's see if we can make any sense out of these arguments from "one time I got boned by heimer" haters.

This BS about he was too strong vs melees has no merit. Guess what, all melees are crap against anybody who can kite effectively. Heimer gets destroyed by anybody who can use their gap closer properly. He also gets destroyed by anyone who can manage his turrets, or by any assassin who can get the drop on him. He has little to no mobility so ask for a gank just like the 30 other top laners. If this game is "I should be able to 1v1 any champ equally," then great, I agree with you, but short of giving all the champs the exact same abilities and damages etc, it's a game of rock-paper-scissors. Even then Riot can't keep it balanced because they are money hungry and keep releasing new champs instead of balancing the game with what it has. Yeah I wish it was the lanes are so even that the only deciding factor is the ability to capitalize on your jungler help or your opponents mistakes to win, but it's not.

Don't pick a melee champ into heimer if you see him, or ban heimer if it bothers you that bad. What proves there was never a problem was his ban rate pre-nerf. The snowflake community screaming about heimer being a problem never chose to ban him and that abysmally low ban rate proves there was obviously not an issue. If you pick your OTP into a counter, then be prepared to suffer through the game, just like what happens to me when I pick heimer into a half decent Xerath because I only play one champ.

In b4 "we don't ban because he isn't played enough!" dumb ass logic. If nobody is playing him he is obviously not "so oppressive he needs a nerf." There are enough people who ride the FOTM train through ranked that he would be picked more often, and that evidence is obviously supported by his 2% pick rate lmao.

If you're complaining because heimer can 2v1 your top lane when you run into his 3x turret setup while he has ult, stopwatch, and summoners up....then you deserve to die. This is also assuming heimer lands 2 of his 3 abilities, which are both skillshots. Riot's problem is that they try to balance champs through items or runes instead of balancing the champs themselves. Your problem is you are getting hit by multiple skillshots in a perfect storm of cooldowns and setup. Stupid is as stupid does and this was all pre-nerf. I don't see anybody incessantly bitching about katarina ult 5 times in a teamfight, or trist jumping around like a pogostick on the juice while securing kills and taking no damage.

Now, heimer's ult Q is so lame, I can hardly one shot squishies who walk into my bush full of 3 turrets, an ult turret, and a full rotation of skillshots. Most popular mids can 100-0 an enemy on a full set of cooldowns, lots are point and click, some even have multiple resets WTF?!. Let's talk Lux, veigar, syndra, kat, zed, azir, annie, brand, zoe etc. But you guys want to complain about the donger. RQ is so useless now, not one single above 60 IQ donger will throw it down in a teamfight, what is the point in even having it?

I saw some mentally challenged individuals keep saying that heimer lane is boring to play against and isn't interactive.......LOL that is the best reasoning I have ever heard. Guess what tonto? I find your gangplank set up barrels then repeatedly blow them up non-interactive and boring, I find your singed run around in circles with pots non-interactive and boring, I find your tryndamere hack hack spin, heal, lane non-interactive and boring, i find your gnar walk back and forth while you throw boomerangs at me non-interactive and boring. I ESPECIALLY find your Nasus with 1 MR item farm Q for 25 mins toplane INSANELY non-interactive and boring.

I could really go on with that all day, but that's just what the game is. Some lane matchups are not fun at all, so we play for farm, ganks, and endgame teamfights. If in the meantime your or my bot lane goes 0-5 while we are farming the boring top, THAT IS WHAT THE GAME IS! ask for a laneswap or go play another champ in another lane or hell, my favorite is when that Nasus goes and plays support, I love that free win.

The bottom line is as others have stated already. Heimerdinger is played by mostly OTPs who have hundreds of games on him. In that time they have learned the nuances and practiced enough to use his abilities on a high level which is still not enough to waltz through the game due to his intrinsic weaknesses. The same dedicated OTP players of other champs generally see a much higher return on investment than heimerdinger players. The Donger's nerfs were based on skewed win data because of this and the relentless complaining of melting snowflakes in the community. The nerfs should be reverted, or other buffs/changes are necessary to keep the donger playable.

What I really want to know is does Riot have a plan to fix donger and actually evaluate how they balance their game overall? Or are you just continually catering to the liberal "I deserve to win now" millennial player base who always want to borrow their daddy's wallet for RP purchases? If it's the latter, let me know cause I'll go find my entertainment elsewhere.

Λ G O N Y3/13/2018, 8:53:23 PM3 votes

This messages are really true!! Heimer now is shit, so please help us and take some consideration ^^ Thanks RiOT

sangotann12/28/2018, 10:38:11 PM3 votes

I'm also a heimerdinger otp, the champion is really weak against all matchups, he is never played in lcs and if you get camped you can do nothing because you can't not push with heimerdinger due to his turrets, so it's a free gank now that RQ is useless...

RIOT MAKE DONGER GREAT AGAIN ! Heimerdinger Heimerdinger Heimerdinger

Pupsx3/1/2018, 6:06:36 AM3 votes

Heimerdinger Platinum Heimer Main here. As much I would love to just see the RQ nerf reverted (crossing my fingers), a potential rework would also work.

  1. Maybe increasing the health of the RQ turret itself as it can offer more sustain fire or be used a good deterrent from getting ganked. I feel like doing this would keep in line with Riot’s emphasize on RQ not being used as a all in ‘oppressive’ burst ultimate. 2.Offering a healing aura similar to the one used when near the Poro King where being around his RQ offeres short burst of healing. This would also work with the idea of being a unique option and not oppressive. Please let us raise our dongers high once again ʀᴀɪsᴇ ᴜʀ ᴅᴏɴɢᴇʀs ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
Piltover Customs3/6/2018, 11:41:21 PM3 votes

Guys, not sure you will read this but thank you. I'm glad we got to discuss Heimer (whether good or bad).

It's beautiful to see that people care.

MerloJohn3/11/2018, 12:27:14 PM2 votes

So sad nobody is taking into account our considerations. I have 52%wr with Donger, Gold 4, but it could be much higher. It is frustrating when people complain when you select Donger in champ selection. I think they are not good in Riot with numbers and statistics...when a champ with 0.5% Pick Rate has 48% WR (but also 52%WR) it means that champ is totally under powered. He MUST have a buff, many ways to do that. Unfortunately we are in a minority and Riot doesn't like minorities because it is in the mood of multinational to maximize incoming. I just feel so unfortunate to like this poor champ....SAD

LyingOnLine2/26/2018, 7:34:16 PM1 votes

Here’s a thought.

Maybe they nerfed him because he was cancer?

Also, try not to make a post full of lies next time.

Kaioko2/26/2018, 10:10:28 PM1 votes

Heimer is fine -- he's a niche pick and should be treated as such the nerf was perfectly justified with how he was winning nearly every single top lane match ups including the ones he wasn't meant to.

His turrets do way too much damage early and don't scale well into the late game. IMO he shouldn't get to have all 3 placed out at level 1 and the damage should scale with his level.