Nerf Vayne Please

0cean Mann·Aug 18, 2019·18 votes·9,389 views

Why are you buffing her, She's like the ranged version of Yasuo but hard to catch and kill. The only thing that makes her broken is that 3 hit passive thing that not deals percentage health damage but also has a minumun true damage of 110 if at max level+ items. Thats why tanks lose when theres a vayne

Heres one of my latest experiences She single handedly killed me and 3 of my teammates and Jinx was more fed than her. It took only 3 shots for each one of us to die and we had trouble because we can't even catch or stun her because of that annoying ultimate. Now that I say that I think that were going to be in a ULTIMATE VAYNE AKA GODDESS OF ADCS 1v5 COMPILATION youtube video but we'll see

Im sort of and slightly mad for the loss though since I promised myself to make lux feel better by winning because she had a breakup (Jinx told me, They were a duo) but eh I failed them. Now thats been imprinted in my mind forever

Edit: Heres the vid, I'm the Blue Pyke since my name is 0cean Mann. Dont mind the title though :)

40 Comments

Daddy AntsAug 18, 201911 votes

I LoSt A GaMe tO vAyNe So sHe's Op.

No.

Pyke is OP.

Jinx is op.

0cean MannAug 18, 20192 votes

If Jinx is op, why did she die when she had more items and gold than her. If Vayne was another ADC like Varus then Jinx wouldn't have a problem killing him.

kuzzy47Aug 18, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I LoSt A GaMe tO vAyNe So sHe's Op.

No.

Pyke is OP.

Jinx is op.

No. Pyke is 48 wr and can't 1vs5.

Hot LeBlanc YuriAug 18, 20198 votes

Yeah but jinx 3 shotting riven is fine. You let the Vayne get 222 cs and 18 kills at 26 min. You deserve to lose that lmao

Daddy AntsAug 18, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hot LeBlanc Yuri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cNbWKABX,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-18T11:30:51.564+0000)

Yeah but jinx 3 shotting riven is fine. You let the Vayne get 222 cs and 18 kills at 26 min. You deserve to lose that lmao

Vayne ended the game 70 cs and 4k gold up on Jinx too.

Daddy AntsAug 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hot LeBlanc Yuri,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cNbWKABX,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-08-18T11:30:51.564+0000)

Yeah but jinx 3 shotting riven is fine. You let the Vayne get 222 cs and 18 kills at 26 min. You deserve to lose that lmao

Also how Jinx more a less 2 shot Caitlyn.

RadeticDrawsAug 19, 20191 votes

I once played vs a vayne that I stomped hard she had 3/11 score and negative cs and still could 1v5 because she finished 2 items

2Charmnot2CharmAug 18, 20196 votes

Vayne is level 17 compared to everyone on the enemy team being level 12.

Literally any champion that is not a support can do the same when they dodge all CC.

Edit: it's also not a true 1v4 since y'all just walk in 1 by 1 to die.

Daddy AntsAug 18, 20194 votes

Playing Pyke but complaining about a middle of the pack ADC

XDDDDDDDDDDDDD

0cean MannAug 18, 20192 votes

how can a "middle of the pack" ADC make tanks so useless against her? How can a "middle of the pack" ADC overpower a "Middle of the pack" ADC that's supposed to be stronger than her item wise? How can a "middle of the pack" ADC kill an entire team by its self and live? How can a "middle of the pack" ADC be so mobile when they are supposed to be immobile How can a "middle of the pack" ADC quickly dodge assasinations when assasins are supposed to be their counters How can you say that someone who deals true damage be in the "middle of the pack"?

Darkdemon653Aug 18, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Playing Pyke but complaining about a middle of the pack ADC

XDDDDDDDDDDDDD

One champion's current state doesn't justify another's.

Daddy AntsAug 18, 20193 votes

{quoted}

One champion's current state doesn't justify another's.

Vayne's fine.

l2p.

JanakinAug 18, 20193 votes

This is a terrible example. Vayne is fed as hell and 3-5 levels ahead of her opponents.

JackMcCarryAug 18, 20193 votes

This thread is how i imagine every exaggerated QQ thread.

She's higher level than your entire team? She dodges all CC, you all go in 1 by 1 on a champion who can ONLY HIT 1 PERSON AT A TIME. 4v1 and you go in 1v1, did that trynd even ult?.

ThefrostyvikingAug 18, 20192 votes

.....Now listen here OP you goof.

I hate Vayne, i absolutely despise her, but tossing out a video of a 18,2,3 Vayne with a AD/critbuild killing a few people attacking her one at a time or even two at one while massively behind isnt proof of her needing any kind of nerf.

A jinx trying to 1v1 a Vayne late isnt impressive either, she isnt built for it at all which vayne is.

All it proves is that you lost against one, miserably so, and that you are salty enough to make a post on the boards about it.

ﬂooAug 18, 20192 votes

She was 18/2 and level 17. She was fed as fuck, what do you expect? A Jax with these stats would've done the same just quicker. Admittedly she crit a lot for just 50% judging by her items, but that's luck and not a Vayne problem. Jinx dealt the same amounts of damage, why should Vayne playing properly be broken in comparison?

Dreyka KintasoAug 18, 20192 votes

You can't buy armor vs Vayne because of her true dmg, you can't build hp against her because %hp dmg. Fking busted that Champion and Riot still doesn't see it.

Shiroe OkazakiAug 18, 20191 votes

People are gonna come here and say " oh she killed y'all cuz shes fed" so im gonna say right now. Vaynes get fed very often because her laning isn't that bad. And even if she goes even or gets a little behind all she needs is the slightest push and she gets that power.

0cean MannAug 18, 20191 votes

I did forgot to mention she was top lane and abused tryndamere alot. The only problem is that only me and Jinx are the only ones fed and rengar doesn't know how to play rengar

NyarlathοtepAug 18, 20191 votes

I love how both vayne and jinx both achieve burst per second. Imo, no one should have burst per second. Also, lifesteal from adcs should be removed. That vayne was healing like 150 from each hit. They changed the re-reworked kog because he could achieve burst per second with some on hit items. Yet pretty much most adcs can do it. They dont require to reach late. Still you cant control your team and if they are stupid enough to let them its gg.

ThefrostyvikingAug 18, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I love how both vayne and jinx both achieve burst per second. Imo, no one should have burst per second. Also, lifesteal from adcs should be removed. That vayne was healing like 150 from each hit. They changed the re-reworked kog because he could achieve burst per second with some on hit items. Yet pretty much most adcs can do it. They dont require to reach late. Still you cant control your team and if they are stupid enough to let them its gg.

400 per hit on a glass cannon is not really that much.

In the same timespan while similarly fed any mage landing their combo or CC would have killed the target instantly.

Hells some like Syndra/veigar would probably have killed the jinx with a basic ability rotation alone.

NyarlathοtepAug 18, 2019

{quoted}

400 per hit on a glass cannon is not really that much.

In the same timespan while similarly fed any mage landing their combo or CC would have killed the target instantly.

Hells some like Syndra/veigar would probably have killed the jinx with a basic ability rotation alone.

400 per hit might seem not much, until you realise its per aa. And since aa dont have any cd or cost, she can easily throw another one and increase it to 800, and another one for 1200 yada yada.

True however the difference between a burst mage and an adc is their restrictions. Like i said earlier, once a burst mage has used their cds they are harmless for the next couple of seconds.

ThefrostyvikingAug 18, 20191 votes

{quoted}

400 per hit might seem not much, until you realise its per aa. And since aa dont have any cd or cost, she can easily throw another one and increase it to 800, and another one for 1200 yada yada.

And how does 1200 compare to someone dealing about 2000 damage instantly when the one doing the 1200 only has 2000?

They are dead and their superior sustained damage does not matter.

True however the difference between a burst mage and an adc is their restrictions. Like i said earlier, once a burst mage has used their cds they are harmless for the next couple of seconds.

On average the burst mage has more range, sometimes a lot more, so if something goes wrong they have a greater margin for error.......that and given how short their cooldowns are later on i have a different opinion for this case.

From my perspective your argument applies well for melee and assassins or even shorter range mages, but not so much for the other mages.

NyarlathοtepAug 18, 2019

And how does 1200 compare to someone dealing about 2000 damage instantly when the one doing the 1200 only has 2000?

I wouldnt really call it instant. Fast yes. Instant by no means. Also a lot of burst mages have evadable kit. Lux, xerath, vel, veigar (provided its not late enough where q r are enough to kill someone), ahri and neeko rely heavily in landing their hard cc in order to burst someone from 100% hp.
Said spell is also easy to evade (lux's, xerath's, ahri's and neeko's have travel time, veigar's and vel have delay). They have to be very ahead if they are able to burst someone without landing their hard cc.

On average the burst mage has more range, sometimes a lot more

Ad carries, superior sustain damage, low restrictions, medium range (with some exceptions), low utility. Ap carries, superior burst damage, restrictions (mana+cds), variety on range, high utility (on average). Thats literally their differences. Mages have more range because unlike adc they cant mend their wounds and not every mage is a lux or orianna where they can shield themselves.

so if something goes wrong they have a greater margin for error.

It varies from champ to champ. Here's an example, veigar vs vayne during laning phase. Veigar cant kill her and he cant run away unless he traps her. However vayne has plenty of movement speed (and her q) to avoid the cage with ease. Or another example, vel vs vayne. He cant land his e because her q exists. However, neeko or ahri have way easier time at dealing with her.

hat and given how short their cooldowns are later on i have a different opinion for this case.

Base cds are fine if you see them. Cdr as a stat is the problem.

ThefrostyvikingAug 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I wouldnt really call it instant. Fast yes. Instant by no means. Also a lot of burst mages have evadable kit. Lux, xerath, vel, veigar (provided its not late enough where q r are enough to kill someone), ahri and neeko rely heavily in landing their hard cc in order to burst someone from 100% hp.
Said spell is also easy to evade (lux's, xerath's, ahri's and neeko's have travel time, veigar's and vel have delay). They have to be very ahead if they are able to burst someone without landing their hard cc.

Some like Syndra can basically chaincast stuff to the point where 3 things hit in the time some others need to cast 1 ability, .....well not instant but close enough.

Hells while playing Syndra and lux i have actually killed glass cannons in just two hits too, Q-E or Q-R, and that was without being anywhere near that fed.

Ad carries, superior sustain damage, low restrictions, medium range (with some exceptions), low utility. Ap carries, superior burst damage, restrictions (mana+cds), variety on range, high utility (on average). Thats literally their differences. Mages have more range because unlike adc they cant mend their wounds and not every mage is a lux or orianna where they can shield themselves.

Mages tend to have better AOE, sometimes greatly so although at the cost of burst.

Being able to heal is something acquired via items, and it wont save you from burst although it is indeed priceless against poke.

It varies from champ to champ. Here's an example, veigar vs vayne during laning phase. Veigar cant kill her and he cant run away unless he traps her. However vayne has plenty of movement speed (and her q) to avoid the cage with ease. Or another example, vel vs vayne. He cant land his e because her q exists. However, neeko or ahri have way easier time at dealing with her.

Which is why Veig and vel koz both have to just stall and farm until later on, at some point they just oneshot her pretty much no matter what, or force her to use stuff that leaves her exposed to their teams-

She is good 1v1, really so, but not nearly as much in a 5v5.

Base cds are fine if you see them. Cdr as a stat is the problem.

CDR like lifesteal is a perk you gain by spending gold(possibly runes), not a default strength but even so there are plenty who have really short cooldowns even without CDR.

NyarlathοtepAug 19, 2019

Hells while playing Syndra and lux i have actually killed glass cannons in just two hits too, Q-E or Q-R, and that was without being anywhere near that fed.

Yeah clip or it didnt happen. Unless your target was horrendously behind you cant kill anyone with only 2 spells.

Mages tend to have better AOE, sometimes greatly so although at the cost of burst.

And higher mana costs. Aka, said pro has a con.

Being able to heal is something acquired via items, and it wont save you from burst

Eh it depends. For example you get snared by lux and she unloads her kit. You can in theory fight back and if anyone is around you can aa and lifesteal.

Which is why Veig and vel koz both have to just stall and farm until later on

Vs vayne you arent supposed to stall. I mean she is a hyper carry. Sure veigar has strong late too. But it cant rival vayne's. Vel has even more trouble because of how low are his ratios (his q has a good at 80%, however his w has 40% max, his e 30% and his ulti 12.5% per tick of damage). You could argue that both veig and vel provide cc, but death is the best cc. Oh in case you doubt these champ's winrates, https://eune.op.gg/champion/veigar/statistics/mid https://eune.op.gg/champion/velkoz/statistics/mid https://eune.op.gg/champion/vayne/statistics/adc

She is good 1v1, really so, but not nearly as much in a 5v5.

Neither is veigar. His only aoe is w and dont get me wrong it hurts, veigar remains an average teamfighter. But still you are underestamating vayne's 5v5. Sure she can only affect 1 champ at a time. But thats all it takes for her to win a fight. One at a time. Her r provides more than enough buffs to make her a monster. And her q makes sure she will always deal a lot of damage per aa. God help you if she lands 3 consecutive hits .

ut even so there are plenty who have really short cooldowns even without CDR.

Ok so here's a popular mage. Lux, q : 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 w: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 e: 10 / 9.5 / 9 / 8.5 / 8 (i excluded her ulti because that shit has no reason to have such a low cd)

Are these short? 9 seconds on a hard cc. I mean if that seems low, then wtf do you want mages to be? A rotation per 12 second? While adcs, fighters and skirmishers have a threat uptime close to always? Because if you want mages to have longer cds then you should buff them accordingly. Like their damage or hard cc. However this would increase the damage and cc creep that exists in the game.

ThefrostyvikingAug 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah clip or it didnt happen. Unless your target was horrendously behind you cant kill anyone with only 2 spells.

Electrolute+luden+magic pen+rabadon Q-E from Syndra kills glass cannons just like that later on, Some like Xer get very close with just 2 q´s as well.

Ask any LB, Nami, Sona or Ashe player about it..-.....no resistance?Instant death when hit by 2+ spells.

And higher mana costs. Aka, said pro has a con.

Eh it depends. For example you get snared by lux and she unloads her kit. You can in theory fight back and if anyone is around you can aa and lifesteal.

,,,,,Either you wont have the AD/crit to make the lifesteal relevant when she hits you or she will have morello and thus negate your lifesteal to the point where you wont heal enough anyway.

Lux burst does a shitton of damage when she lands the entire thing.

Vs vayne you arent supposed to stall. I mean she is a hyper carry. Sure veigar has strong late too. But it cant rival vayne's. Vel has even more trouble because of how low are his ratios (his q has a good at 80%, however his w has 40% max, his e 30% and his ulti 12.5% per tick of damage). You could argue that both veig and vel provide cc, but death is the best cc. Oh in case you doubt these champ's winrates, https://eune.op.gg/champion/veigar/statistics/mid https://eune.op.gg/champion/velkoz/statistics/mid https://eune.op.gg/champion/vayne/statistics/adc

Stalling against Vayne is actually perfectly viable if you cant beat her 1v1 or in a 2v2 but can do so in a coordinated teamfight.

Neither Vel nor veigar has to 1v1 her, just tossing down their spells to burn her mobility is sufficient to greatly reduce her threat.

Neither is veigar. His only aoe is w and dont get me wrong it hurts, veigar remains an average teamfighter. But still you are underestamating vayne's 5v5. Sure she can only affect 1 champ at a time. But thats all it takes for her to win a fight. One at a time. Her r provides more than enough buffs to make her a monster. And her q makes sure she will always deal a lot of damage per aa. God help you if she lands 3 consecutive hits .

Veigar is a very good teamfighter just based on his E.......being able to basically kill almost any one target of choice later doesnt hurt either, and he can directly screw an ulting vayne unless she has cleanse .,,,,which means she has used it and Veig´s team can lock her down if she is that close.

Ok so here's a popular mage. Lux, q : 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 w: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 e: 10 / 9.5 / 9 / 8.5 / 8 (i excluded her ulti because that shit has no reason to have such a low cd)

Even if lux had like 60 seconds CD on her ult....you tell me, is that a long cooldown for something that when used well is assuredly going to send someone back to the respawn when combined with her 9 sec CD Q?

Are these short? 9 seconds on a hard cc. I mean if that seems low, then wtf do you want mages to be? A rotation per 12 second? While adcs, fighters and skirmishers have a threat uptime close to always? Because if you want mages to have longer cds then you should buff them accordingly. Like their damage or hard cc. However this would increase the damage and cc creep that exists in the game.

Doesnt matter how much DPS you´ve got if you die instantly because you got hit by 1 piece of CC that started a combo. .......damage is only good when you live to use it which is why the best marksmen in teamfights are those like Twitch/jinx or even Tristana who sit really damn far away being completely unreachable while still doing a lot of damage.

Kai´sa? Vayne? Far riskier to play and much easier to knock out of a fight when even.....after all at least they are in range to be hit.

NyarlathοtepAug 19, 2019

Electrolute+luden+magic pen+rabadon Q-E from Syndra kills glass cannons just like that later on, Some like Xer get very close with just 2 q´s as well.

Time to burn some shit.

Syndra q-e equals to 553+141% magic damage. Assuming syndra has ludens morello dcap and sorc boots for a grand total of 420 ap. Assuming her q e hits an ashe (no mr), she will deal 628 (q) + 517 (e) = 1145 magic damage. Ludens increase this to 1287. Electrocute increase this between 1422-1572 magic damage (depending on level ofc). 1572 thats actually quite a lot HOWEVER. This doesnt take into consideration mr and the build that ashe has. We can expect the adc to pick an mr item in response to a strong burst mage like syndra.

However i will spare making more calculations because syndra CANT kill ashe. And here's why. Ashe will have to be 14 level or under that in order for her to die. And this is based when she has no mr. At level 14 her max hp is 1566. Period, the syndra that you speak off cant kill an ashe unless that ashe is under lvl 14.

As for xerath, why do you talk when you know jack shit nothing? You literally have 1 ranked game with xerath. So why do you bring him when you dont know him? His q definitely hurts being 240+75% magic damage. and we can assume he deals a little over what our syndra above dealt. However at a higher mana cost and way bigger timespan. And way easier to evade it.

,Either you wont have the AD/crit to make the lifesteal relevant when she hits you or she will have morello and thus negate your lifesteal to the point where you wont heal enough anyway.

Most of the times yeah this is what happens. But the mage be damned if the adc survived. They will be back to full hp by the time the cds are back.

Stalling against Vayne is actually perfectly viable if you cant beat her 1v1 or in a 2v2 but can do so in a coordinated teamfight

Coordinated fight? Maybe between premades. In soloq (and normals) communication is hard to come by. Pings dont suffice in high tension moments. And even then most of the times, people cant cooperate with strangers. Sometimes its tilt and another times is because people literally cant communicate. Or rather they refuse to hear each other.

, just tossing down their spells to burn her mobility is sufficient to greatly reduce her threat.

They cant do that. They have to keep their mana to farm. AND BTW both of them will run out of mana before vayne does (at least early). Also her q has lower cd than theirs.

Veigar is a very good teamfighter just based on his E.......being able to basically kill almost any one target of choice later doesnt hurt either

In order to kill someone alone he has to land his w, aka his target must be incapable of moving. And even then he has to use his ulti. And once its down, a veigar is half as dangerous UNLIKE vayne and her +400(after armour) aa.

and he can directly screw an ulting vayne unless she has cleanse

Or she just leaves the cage before its formed. You know that 0.5 second delay.

Even if lux had like 60 seconds CD on her ult....you tell me, is that a long cooldown for something that when used well is assuredly going to send someone back to the respawn when combined with her 9 sec CD Q?

No ofc its not. Hence me not including her ulti. That shit is too strong for its cd.

Doesnt matter how much DPS you´ve got if you die instantly because you got hit by 1 piece of CC that started a combo

Welcome to damage creep. Do you want to know why a single cc leads to almost always death? Because this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQOLtqdwYEA

(first clip especially) because of her mobility she avoids a decent amount of damage. The damage that she takes though is healed steadily but surely. Because of this riot started buffing damage so that hard cc the enemy vayne (or yasuo or whoever is dashing around like a madman) is the most efficient way of dealing with them.

Fair mention the clip at 1:08, if she had gotten caught by that morgana q she (imo) would have died 9 times out of 10. Because as we saw, because of her mobility she was able to deal damage despite her being close range. The enemy just couldnt get close to her.

Also another reason is things like jinx. Jinx has a very strong teamfight because of her aoe critcal. Because of this she gets to deal high damage to at least 3 targets and god help you if her passive procs.

Last but not least, yi. His best counter is hard cc him literally to death because you cant deal with his barrage of true damage.

In the end, 1 hard cc= death because hyper carries (and other similar stuff) just have to die fast because otherwise they are a big pain in the arse. Just like how you have to end early a game vs vayne (usually). I mean try facing a late game yi when your only hard cc is silence a vel koz e, and a darius e. Good luck killing him.

Kai´sa? Vayne? Far riskier to play and much easier to knock out of a fight when even.....after all at least they are in range to be hit.

They also get tools to help them that. Kaisa has her e and a big ass ulti, something that most tanks would kill to have. Vayne has spammable q that during her ulti is also a very strong reposition tool.

ThefrostyvikingAug 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Time to burn some shit.

Syndra q-e equals to 553+141% magic damage. Assuming syndra has ludens morello dcap and sorc boots for a grand total of 420 ap. Assuming her q e hits an ashe (no mr), she will deal 628 (q) + 517 (e) = 1145 magic damage. Ludens increase this to 1287. Electrocute increase this between 1422-1572 magic damage (depending on level ofc). 1572 thats actually quite a lot HOWEVER. This doesnt take into consideration mr and the build that ashe has. We can expect the adc to pick an mr item in response to a strong burst mage like syndra.

I did explicitly state "glass cannon", someone building resistances is not one.

However i will spare making more calculations because syndra CANT kill ashe. And here's why. Ashe will have to be 14 level or under that in order for her to die. And this is based when she has no mr. At level 14 her max hp is 1566. Period, the syndra that you speak off cant kill an ashe unless that ashe is under lvl 14.

You are indeed correct that she´d survive a Q-E, albeit with very little health left.......suppose i´d have to replace the E with Sydra´s W instead? Scales better and does a little true damage at max rank.

As for xerath, why do you talk when you know jack shit nothing? You literally have 1 ranked game with xerath. So why do you bring him when you dont know him? His q definitely hurts being 240+75% magic damage. and we can assume he deals a little over what our syndra above dealt. However at a higher mana cost and way bigger timespan. And way easier to evade it.

Ranked games is hardly a necessary requirement for knowing what a champ can do to some extent.

His Q does indeed do more damage per hit but at the same time the increased delay lets even a marksman with weak lifesteal manage more easily against him,,,,,same as how they´d deal with say Brand or zyra botlane.

Most of the times yeah this is what happens. But the mage be damned if the adc survived. They will be back to full hp by the time the cds are back.

Some fairness is needed, if the marksman has a rather high chance of taking possibly fatal damage from twice or thrice their own range then there has to be something in it for them.

Coordinated fight? Maybe between premades. In soloq (and normals) communication is hard to come by. Pings dont suffice in high tension moments. And even then most of the times, people cant cooperate with strangers. Sometimes its tilt and another times is because people literally cant communicate. Or rather they refuse to hear each other.

I am certainly not responsible for your bad experiences <.<

They cant do that. They have to keep their mana to farm. AND BTW both of them will run out of mana before vayne does (at least early). Also her q has lower cd than theirs.

I meant for teamfights that, i dont think they stand a rats ass in beating Vayne 1v1........2v2 might be possible depending on the "supports".

In order to kill someone alone he has to land his w, aka his target must be incapable of moving. And even then he has to use his ulti. And once its down, a veigar is half as dangerous UNLIKE vayne and her +400(after armour) aa.

Seriously depends on how well things have gone for him, if he has managed to farm and stack his Q then just Q-R seriously wipes the floor with any poor fellow in his way......

I´ve seen this happen often enough, and to add salt to the wounds his W actually gains projectile speed as he stacks his AP passive.

Or she just leaves the cage before its formed. You know that 0.5 second delay.

Not possible if he centers it on her, trust me i´ve tried, cleanse or flash is the only way if he gets that far up.

No ofc its not. Hence me not including her ulti. That shit is too strong for its cd.

Even if it was 80 seconds.........later on she kills you with it, you go into a 30-40 seconds respawn, take 15-20 seconds to go back to the map then 20 seconds later you basically die again.

From high range.

Welcome to damage creep. Do you want to know why a single cc leads to almost always death? Because this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQOLtqdwYEA

Bruh a vid with the first clip being a showcase of one side just missing almost every single important shot they could. getting seperated and chased down as such is not impressive.

Heck had that Syndra landed 1 Q-R she´d have either killed or forced Vayne to run for her dear life.

(first clip especially) because of her mobility she avoids a decent amount of damage. The damage that she takes though is healed steadily but surely. Because of this riot started buffing damage so that hard cc the enemy vayne (or yasuo or whoever is dashing around like a madman) is the most efficient way of dealing with them.

That clip is a virtually a textbook example of how to not handle Vayne.

I am seriously very sure an Irelia/akali or Yasou could have done something very similar, Possibly Ahri as well if she had the damage to kill Jax.

Fair mention the clip at 1:08, if she had gotten caught by that morgana q she (imo) would have died 9 times out of 10. Because as we saw, because of her mobility she was able to deal damage despite her being close range. The enemy just couldnt get close to her.

The overwhelming problem for most of the clips in that video was the case of using a slegehammer powerslam trying to put a tiny nail in a similarly thin wooden board.....naturally you just end up screwing shit up badly instead of actually accomplishing your task.

A perfect illustation of this that anyone could understand is 1:52, a braum and a lux try to run down a fed Vayne but neither actually has anything that is good against her....heck Braum didnt even have ult and lux missed her Q.

This ontop of vayne having stacked rageblade before too.

Also another reason is things like jinx. Jinx has a very strong teamfight because of her aoe critcal. Because of this she gets to deal high damage to at least 3 targets and god help you if her passive procs.

CC is rarely a threat to Jinx with her long range, her issue is instead assassins more often than not.

Last but not least, yi. His best counter is hard cc him literally to death because you cant deal with his barrage of true damage.

CC? Yi? True damage?

Didnt he lose most of his true damage compared to before? Furthermore didnt they basically buff his Q so you cant actually hit him with projectile stuff unless you time it really well when he is like Q'ing on someone else.

In the end, 1 hard cc= death because hyper carries (and other similar stuff) just have to die fast because otherwise they are a big pain in the arse. Just like how you have to end early a game vs vayne (usually). I mean try facing a late game yi when your only hard cc is silence a vel koz e, and a darius e. Good luck killing him.

Ending early vs Vayne is a bullshit strategy that usually doesnt even have a shot at working.....because she is actually strong enough in lane that she can survive pretty easily if she plays well and isnt hardcountered to oblivion.

Hells she straight up wrecks some matchups right from like lvl 3 onwards, even as a lategame scaling carry.

They also get tools to help them that. Kaisa has her e and a big ass ulti, something that most tanks would kill to have. Vayne has spammable q that during her ulti is also a very strong reposition tool.

I´d hold the two of them seperate to be honest, for although similar at a glance it is very well worth noting that kai´sa only has a single use of her R and ......some CD on her E at least between casts, even later.

Vayne is in a completely different league in regards to mobility. .....and to be honest i basically think you have to have something pretty obnoxious exactly like a Syndra/veigar/Vlad late to have a good shot at dealing with her late on.

Her damage and mobility needs no intruduction but at the same time she pays the price of dying very quickly if she starts taking hits which is why she often struggles in high elo&proplay when not overbuffed.

NyarlathοtepAug 20, 2019

I did explicitly state "glass cannon", someone building resistances is not one.

sigh w/e im not going to argue over the term glass cannon. However still my calculation worked without mr. Aka even with no mr syndra cant q e an ashe unless she is <14 level.

You are indeed correct that she´d survive a Q-E, albeit with very little health left.......suppose i´d have to replace the E with Sydra´s W instead? Scales better and does a little true damage at max rank.

Nah the damage increase would be minimal considering w does have a better scaling, however total damage is 276+84%. Not much higher than e 265+60%.

Some fairness is needed, if the marksman has a rather high chance of taking possibly fatal damage from twice or thrice their own range then there has to be something in it for them.

I mean yeah. He doesnt have more chances of taking fatal damage. However they do scale far better than other classes. They are supposed to get killed easily. Thus the need to get babysitted. Their exchange in being (or at least in theory) easy to kill is that they outscale the other classes very hard.

I am certainly not responsible for your bad experiences <.<

You cant make a champion weak to coordinated play. Playing with strangers means that you have no way too properly communicate, form a plan and make quick calls. When you play with strangers you cant cooperate as you would if you were premade.

I meant for teamfights that, i dont think they stand a rats ass in beating Vayne 1v1........2v2 might be possible depending on the "supports".

Oke true but still. A vayne spams q always. A mage forcing her to q is stupid because she would q anyways.

just Q-R seriously wipes the floor with any poor fellow in his way......

Yeah but he has to reach very very late. Turrets during that time will fall like wet tissues before minions.

and to add salt to the wounds his W actually gains projectile speed as he stacks his AP passive.

You mean the cd gets lower per 50 stacks. Which is balanced out by the fact that ranking it up doesnt reduce its cd. At max it falls at around 4 seconds.

Not possible if he centers it on her, trust me i´ve tried, cleanse or flash is the only way if he gets that far up.

Well shit we arent machines. You cant aim at 100% centre (especially when they are constantly moving).

Even if it was 80 seconds.........later on she kills you with it, you go into a 30-40 seconds respawn, take 15-20 seconds to go back to the map then 20 seconds later you basically die again.

Then dodge her evadable q? I mean shit man its AVOIDABLE. Stop getting hit simple enough.

Bruh a vid with the first clip being a showcase of one side just missing almost every single important shot they could. getting seperated and chased down as such is not impressive.

My point was showcasing what prompted damage creep (that and riot wanting for games to end faster).

CC is rarely a threat to Jinx with her long range, her issue is instead assassins more often than not.

Maybe. But still, getting hit by a anivia q will still be her death (most of the times).

Didnt he lose most of his true damage compared to before? Furthermore didnt they basically buff his Q so you cant actually hit him with projectile stuff unless you time it really well when he is like Q'ing on someone else.

No he didnt. And he is invulnerable and untargetable during his q.

Ending early vs Vayne is a bullshit strategy that usually doesnt even have a shot at working.....because she is actually strong enough in lane that she can survive pretty easily if she plays well and isnt hardcountered to oblivion. Hells she straight up wrecks some matchups right from like lvl 3 onwards, even as a lategame scaling carry.

Why indeed. However nevertheless vayne remains extremely strong late game. As such stopping her from reaching it is the best course of action.

I´d hold the two of them seperate to be honest, for although similar at a glance it is very well worth noting that kai´sa only has a single use of her R and ......some CD on her E at least between casts, even later.

Her ulti also repositions her. And her cd on e gets lowered per aa. And she buys some cdr.

Her damage and mobility needs no intruduction but at the same time she pays the price of dying very quickly if she starts taking hits which is why she often struggles in high elo&proplay when not overbuffed.

She struggles? Excuse me? https://u.gg/lol/champions/vayne/build?rank=diamond_plus 50% winrate. Dont talk if you dont know please.

ThefrostyvikingAug 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

sigh w/e im not going to argue over the term glass cannon. However still my calculation worked without mr. Aka even with no mr syndra cant q e an ashe unless she is <14 level.

She wouldnt have that many items unless very fed before 14 at any rate.

I mean yeah. He doesnt have more chances of taking fatal damage. However they do scale far better than other classes. They are supposed to get killed easily. Thus the need to get babysitted. Their exchange in being (or at least in theory) easy to kill is that they outscale the other classes very hard.

They are easy to kill......just depending on who is doing it, they are indeed not universally vulnerable against anyone.

You cant make a champion weak to coordinated play. Playing with strangers means that you have no way too properly communicate, form a plan and make quick calls. When you play with strangers you cant cooperate as you would if you were premade.

Why not? There are champs that only really work in such play.

And Vayne isnt so strong that she cant be shutdown by a team that is at least somewhat coherent, otherwise her win and playrates would be far higher......but to be perfectly honest i dont believe she is in a good state but a little more on that further below.

Oke true but still. A vayne spams q always. A mage forcing her to q is stupid because she would q anyways.

Difference is how she uses it and which directions, such things matter a lot.

Yeah but he has to reach very very late. Turrets during that time will fall like wet tissues before minions.

He just needs to hit 4 with about the same items as Syndra above + 150 or so stacks, he´ll eat right through a squishies healthbar.

You mean the cd gets lower per 50 stacks. Which is balanced out by the fact that ranking it up doesnt reduce its cd. At max it falls at around 4 seconds.

My bad, got it confused for something else entirely, and the CD can actually go down to 0 although he is very unlikely to go below 4 seconds without CDR.

Well shit we arent machines. You cant aim at 100% centre (especially when they are constantly moving).

,.,,,,,,Man we are talking veigar´s E, not Xeraths W.

Large difference in difficulty here, with veig being quite easy.

Then dodge her evadable q? I mean shit man its AVOIDABLE. Stop getting hit simple enough.

Tell that to SKT who banned blitzcrank,,,,,,,if you could somehow just "stop getting hit" whenever you pleased i doubt they´d have done something like that.

And it very well applies to lux too,,,,

My point was showcasing what prompted damage creep (that and riot wanting for games to end faster).

....You dont actually realize the massive contradiction here at all do you?

IF the damage creep was so bad Vayne would have died in the initial 3 hits she took,,,,but she did not, despite having no resistance or health items at the time.

Maybe. But still, getting hit by a anivia q will still be her death (most of the times).

That would take a minor miracle though.

No he didnt. And he is invulnerable and untargetable during his q.

Ah now i remember, rageblade was reworked and he lost something on that line, many even stopped building it on him.

Why indeed. However nevertheless vayne remains extremely strong late game. As such stopping her from reaching it is the best course of action.

Best course of action is counterpicking her to oblivion, either in lane or via teamcomp but just averagely "doing your best to end early" is not gona do squat.

She hits botrk+rageblade and she just wins if that is all you´ve got.

Her ulti also repositions her. And her cd on e gets lowered per aa. And she buys some cdr.

Which is why zone control abilities are so good against her, like what Zyra, veig and thresh got.

She struggles? Excuse me? https://u.gg/lol/champions/vayne/build?rank=diamond_plus 50% winrate. Dont talk if you dont know please.

I did write "when not overbuffed" did i not?

She never lost all the stuff she got with the prestige skin launch, been kinda overtuned as i see it ever since........a supposedly high skillcap champ should never hit 50% winrate in the average players hands x)

VelvetCrotchAug 18, 20191 votes

Disregard the fact that vayne was too ahead and is more a 1v1 champ than jinx (who is more a tf adc) I have the opinion that vayne is one just of a few champs in league which should get removed* cause they just don’t fit into the game, are not op but broken, toxic/unhealthy for the game.

Same goes to fiora and riven btw

*this or completely reworked

Rıots Bad ClientAug 18, 20191 votes

Vayne is troubled.

With the current meta, late game champs are not very good.

And They keep trying to buff vayne to at least make it to late. So at time shes meta even at times she shouldn't. that of a tank meta. Or anything with heavy tanks.Shes being picked as an assassin adc thats incredibly slippery and tools to self Peel. Vayne isnt healthy. I dont think she'll ever be healthy. Not with her kit...None of it.

Any goals this champion had. No longer is clear.

HeresyHorusAug 18, 20191 votes

Seeing some ADCs with some of the best self peel and utility kits do targeted, unavoidable and resource-less burst damage from 550+ range with no CDs or downtime on it while healing for 150-200 hp per 0.3 sec.

Me: nAh dUdeS ADCs aRe sTill iN a bAD sPoT LikE Always tHeY dO 0 dAmAGe AnD hAvE 0 rAngE AnD 0 sELf pEeL aNd 0 Utility, ADC iN 2K19 LUL.

MaGeS aRe BrOKeN OP dUDes ThEY hAvE 0 CDs AnD uNAvoiDaBlE sPeLLS aNd dEfEnCeS aRe uSeLeSs against ThEm, tHey 1 sHot oUr FulL MR\HP tAnK iN 1 rOtAtiON, RiOT nERf PlZ.

Oh boy I wonder for how much longer I can take it.

[sg-ahri-1]

Riot already knows the true issue with AD champs in general (including ADCs).

Have you seen what they have done with Syndra recently (a champ with 4 skillshots and high skill requirement) ? it is a clear proof of it.

They tried to buff her R damage (the spell that get used once in team fights and have the largest downtime on her kit) and it didn't do jack to her.

Then they gave a sizable buff to her Q base + ratio scaling from passive (the spell with the least downtime on her kit).

The slight buff to her E happened because they feared that they would enrage those who cannot dodge spam-able skillshots if they buffed her Q more than they did.

Riot simply don't want the "Rekkles tragedy" to happen again. it is bad for business and tickets sales.

SiG DxDAug 18, 20191 votes

it didnt have item 3124

W is 14% max hp

how absurdly overpowered shet of a skill...14% max hp as true damage

ThisName1sDumbAug 18, 20191 votes

You say she's like a ranged version of Yasuo. I'd say she's more like a ranged version of Master Yi with tons of true damage and generally building on hit.

PzyXoAug 18, 20191 votes

This piece of shit is my perma ban. I ban her everygame in everylane except jungle. I kept posting threads about her for 2 months that she's op and can 1v5 ezly. But people just "EHHHH SHE'S JUST FED AND U'RE BAD". I mean mercy on Pyke and Jinx. This champ is just underrated. She just requires you to press Q and right click and know who to attack and focus first. Ranged version of master yi

SolarisCorvusAug 19, 20191 votes

Hey man dont get me wrong I hate vayne as much as the next guy but in that video her destroying you guys is on your team. Also jinx was 3shotting people which is of even more concern.