Should innate sustain be toned down?

z63XnLCMwX·Sep 28, 2018·3 votes·2,245 views

I remember back in s3 when Riot didn't want to overtune sustain because it's unhealthy gameplay. What are your thoughts on sustain in current champion kits?

7 Comments

Warlord RhinarkSep 28, 20182 votes

Are you talking about sustain coming from Runes and Items or sustain already present in a champion's kit?

z63XnLCMwXSep 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cK2yb8U0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-28T06:34:52.252+0000)

Are you talking about sustain coming from Runes and Items or sustain already present in a champion's kit?

Champion kits.

Warlord RhinarkSep 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Champion kits.

#DISCLAIMER: THIS IS MY OPINION.

I don't think sustain present innately in champion kits is bad overall, it's a bit different from case to case.

Akali is one of them.

For someone who's supposed to be an Assassin, a generally high risk squishy champion that's supposed to be easy to punish, she does have a good amount of sustain in lane, especially with all her sources of Energy restoration.

Currently, her Q heals her for 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% of premitigation damage at 180 or above Energy. This is especially going to heal her for a ton since her Q deals 33.3% more damage to minions at rank 5.

If I could choose, I'd reduce the amount to 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25% of premitigation damage.

Then there's someone like Cho'gath who heals upwards of a hundred health every minion wave.

His passive currently heals him for 20 - 71 health (based on level) for every unit he kills.

I'd reduce this to 10 - 50 (based on level).

The mana he restores could probably be reduced to 2.5 - 5 (based on level) from it's current 3.5 - 7.75 (based on level) as well.

Dr. Mundo isn't really that bad, his Q healing was reduced a few patches ago. Although, his passive healing could be reduced to 2.5% of maximum health from it's current 3% of maximum health.

Garen's could be reduced to 1 / 5% every 5 seconds instead of it's current 2 / 8%. This is doubled to 2 / 10% at level 11 from it's current 4 / 16%.

Maokai, notorious for being the "this guy can't be killed", heals for quite a lot on his passive as well.

Currently, it heals for 5 - 65 (based on level) (+6% - 13% (based on level) maximum health).

I feel like this could probably be reduced to 5 - 50 (based on level) (+5% - 10% (based on level) maximum health).

To compensate, casting an ability should reduce the cooldown of the passive by 5 seconds instead of it's current 4 seconds.

Mordekaiser's W could get a change in how it works.

Healing per enemy decreased to 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+25% AP) (reduced to 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 (+5% AP) against minions) from 50 / 85 / 120 / 155 / 190 (+ 30% AP) (reduced to 12.5 / 21.25 / 30 / 38.75 / 47.5 (+ 7.5% AP) against minions)

There's now no longer a healing cap on the ability.

Nasus got a pretty unnecessary buff to his passive a few patches ago.

Currently, he has a flat 12 / 18 / 24% Lifesteal.

This should be reduced to 10 / 15 / 20% in my opinion.

Same situation with Olaf.

Reduce his W Lifesteal to 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20% instead of it's current 14 / 16 / 18 / 20 / 22% Lifesteal.

Pyke basically heals for all poke damage he takes.

His passive damage stored should be reduced to 25 - 75% from it's current 30 - 81%.

Renekton's Q healing, however, could probably use a buff.

Maybe increase the healing per minion to 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 / 15 (+5% AD) from it's current 3 / 4.5 / 6 / 7.5 / 9 (+ 4% bonus AD).

And then the healing per champion is changed to 6 / 12 / 18 / 24 / 30 (+10% AD) from it's current 9 / 13.5 / 18 / 22.5 / 27 (+ 12% bonus AD).

However, as to not make it overpowered, a 50 Fury Q will no longer triple the healing, only double it.

This means Renekton will heal for 6 / 12 / 18 / 24 / 30 (+10% AD) per minion hit from it's current 9 / 13.5 / 18 / 22.5 / 27 (+ 12% bonus AD).

And 12 / 24 / 32 / 48 / 60 (+20% AD) per champion hit from it's current 27 / 40.5 / 54 / 67.5 / 81 (+ 36% bonus AD).

Tahm Kench's E healing could probably use a buff too.

Damage taken to Grey Health should be changed to 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 / 75% from it's current 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90%, however, Health restored from Grey Health should be increased to 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% from 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35%.

Basically, this increases damage taken to healing by 6%.

Trundle's Passive healing could also be buffed.

Currently, he heals for 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6% (based on level) of an enemy unit's maximum health when they die, within a 1400 radius.

I think this can be kicked up to 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10% (based on level) of an enemy unit's maximum health, and it's within a 1500 radius now.

Tryndamere's could use a minor change in how it works.

Heal per Fury spent changed to 0.5 / 1 / 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 (+0.75% AP) from 0.5 / 0.95 / 1.4 / 1.85 / 2.3 (+ 1.2% AP).

Minimum heal changed to 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 (+25% AP) from 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 (+ 30% AP).

Maximum heal changed to 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 (100% AP) from 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 (+ 150% AP).

Basically, the base minimum heal, as well as the total AP ratio, is reduced, but the healing per Fury is increased.

This should encourage the Tryndamere player to build up more Fury before using it, rather than just using it when he wants.

Vladimir's Q should also be changed in how it works.

Damage decreased to 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 (+50% AP) from 80 / 100 / 120 / 140 / 160 (+ 60% AP).

Healing changed to 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 (+50% AP) from 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 (+ 35% AP).

Crimson Rush now deals 100% damage instead of 85% damage and heals for 25 - 250 (based on level) (+5% (+5% per 100 AP) missing health) (reduced to 25% effectiveness against minions) from 30 − 200 (based on level) (+ 5% (+ 4% per 100 AP) missing health) (reduced to 35% effectiveness against minions).

Crimson Rush Damage changed to 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 / 300 (+100% AP) from 148 / 185 / 222 / 259 / 296 (+ 111% AP)

Basically, it now deals less damage overall and heals for less early game, but it's going to heal for a ton late game. It also heals less when used on minions.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on the current sustain present in champions' kits.

I've omitted those champions who don't really have that much sustain.

MordepoolSep 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cK2yb8U0,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-28T11:59:39.709+0000)

#DISCLAIMER: THIS IS MY OPINION.

Mordekaiser's W could get a change in how it works.

Healing per enemy decreased to 20 / 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 (+25% AP) (reduced to 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 (+5% AP) against minions) from 50 / 85 / 120 / 155 / 190 (+ 30% AP) (reduced to 12.5 / 21.25 / 30 / 38.75 / 47.5 (+ 7.5% AP) against minions)

There's now no longer a healing cap on the ability.

So a Short ranged Champion who has to put himself in danger well before he has the chance to get sustain from a trade. Lost all incentive to go for the trade, will just be poked out of lane. And cease to function as a Champion.

But the healing is uncapped.

You can't change one thing in a Champions kit while ignoring the kit as a whole. Your proposed changes are short sighted

Warlord RhinarkSep 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So a Short ranged Champion who has to put himself in danger well before he has the chance to get sustain from a trade. Lost all incentive to go for the trade, will just be poked out of lane. And cease to function as a Champion.

But the healing is uncapped.

You can't change one thing in a Champions kit while ignoring the kit as a whole. Your proposed changes are short sighted

I might've put the numbers a bit too low, I agree.

How does 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 (+25% AP) (reduced to 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 (+5% AP against minions) per enemy hit sound?

The healing still being uncapped, of course.

Moody PSep 28, 20181 votes

can you give me an example of who you think has too much

because i can tell you that juggernauts are starting to feel like too little

z63XnLCMwXSep 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cK2yb8U0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-09-28T15:24:50.178+0000)

can you give me an example of who you think has too much

because i can tell you that juggernauts are starting to feel like too little

Generally assassin or champs that plays like assassins with sustain and maybe Garen. Examples are akali, pyke, kayn/rhaast, ahri. I think mundo is fine, Vlad is annoying but acceptable due to his character lore, Swain may need to be toned down a bit, same with aatrox.