Her buffs pushed her over the top to become an S tier ADC with little to no healthy counterplay after she hits 11. Can we make vayne less of a stat check champion and back into a skill based champ? She has 25.88% ban rate with a 24.22% pick rate while sitting at a healthy 52.55% winrate in plat+. How is that supposed to be healthy?
Critmaster Garen45 votesshe has 56% winrate at master tier+ and 30% pick rate.
absolutely no one should be fine with vayne in the state she currently is.
however this also presents an opportunity. they can finally add counterplay to her w as a form of a nerf and make her gameplay healthier at the same time.
add a specific win condition that vayne has to fulfill to access her true damage, or turn it into a short windowed active to give her a window of weakness where you can fight her.
they need to change something about her kit that a fight with her isnt decided before you would engage her.
champions like volibear, udyr and garen should be able to approach her in a 1v1 on even terms and have a chance to outplay her in a fight, instead of automatically losing just because her e exists.
i propose:
a) make the knockback on her e only trigger when the wall stun would connect, similar to how 
stun works. otherwise make the ability enirely ineffective so she doesnt have a free direct target disengage, but is actually reliant on hitting the thing from the correct angle
b) add a counterplay mechanic to her w. something like "silver bolts gets disabled for 4 seconds, when she takes damage from a champion in melee range". (just an example).
just some form of weakness to the ability, just like 
vitals have a realistic potential to be denied by juking her q and general proper positioning.
Sir Saltarin5 votesShe's starting to be played on pro play on a non niche way.
That's what makes me want to see her nerfed and I guess that she's going to be nerfed on next patch.
And she needs a simple nerf, not a design change.
Critmaster Garen16 votes[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPAP9GPm,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-03-21T16:58:29.381+0000)
She's starting to be played on pro play on a non niche way.
That's what makes me want to see her nerfed and I guess that she's going to be nerfed on next patch.
And she needs a simple nerf, not a design change.
no, what she needs are actual gameplay changes that make her kit healthier.
they buffed her in a way that shes not a hyperspecialized niche champion anymore who only excells against beefy targets in a lategame scenario, but now shes able to take on basically anyone. if she is going to keep that and theyre not outright removing the most recent buff again, then she needs to give up something else in another place in her kit.
it should be exactly what she has too much of. reliability.
adding actual counterplay to her e and w might finally make that champion not complete aids to face and is long overdue. and since shes really overpowered since her r buff, might aswell do it now in place of a number nerf.
Sire Hippington4 votesthe most important first step would be adressing the broken phantom-hit mechanic which is part of what removes her counterplay, only needing two hits after getting the highest AS item is hardly an issue, while getting 3 hits is atleast a bit more complicated on a short(ish) ranged squishy.
Partholonian6 votesOn a champion with a short cooldown AA reset!
2 hits is not a meaningful restriction AT ALL to Vayne.
Phantom Hit needs to go.
wildfox9T1 votesit should be exactly what she has too much of. reliability.
maybe make her E a skillshot so you can juke it?
this would make her way less safe against bruisers with mobility and assassins
Critmaster Garen1 votesmaybe make her E a skillshot so you can juke it?
this would make her way less safe against bruisers with mobility and assassins
i think it would still keep her insanely polarized.
like slow melee champions who already never have a chance to engage in a fight with her still wouldnt be able to approach her (little difference between a point blank skillshot against someone with a giant hitbox and a direct target spell), and assassins and mobile champions who already have a chance to just blow her up would do better.
honestly id be statisfied if her w was just, like a 6 second active with a 10 second cooldown or something like that. that would at least create some window of opportunity to fight her. youd have a chance to bait it out, try to back off and then follow up with an engage.
or make it like a 4 second active that she can extend with w procs, and if she drops it, it goes on like a longer cooldown.
3TWarrior1 voteswhile her W is powerful, changing it without changing her defensive options would only hurt her a little in the early game. She builds crit and on-hit items, so she still scales into a massive threat while being almost permanently invisible during her ultimate
Truli911 voteswhile her W is powerful, changing it without changing her defensive options would only hurt her a little in the early game. She builds crit and on-hit items, so she still scales into a massive threat while being almost permanently invisible during her ultimate
So you want to threat to tanks. Mages cant kill tanks now you dont want adcs to kill tanks. So tanks would dance under the towers to dominate everything. Of course she scales shes an hypercarry. What do you expect? To pick a tank and insta win the game cuz nothing damage you? No. Also he q has very little nobility compared to other champions with 3-4 dashes. And vayne has a lower range than most adc.
DeusVult4 votesA: Get rid of the phantom hit passive on 
it breaks a ton of champs, but specifically breaks Vayne and her W, allowing her to proc it every 2 autos instead of every 3.
B: Find a way to change her E so that it doesnt completely invalidate melee champs. Vayne can pretty easily go top in a melee matchup and win because of the amount of self peel she has, along with the passive MS allowing her an easy chase when they disengage
Mormanade2 votesYour first proposal: I don't like it at all. Her condemn is one of the things that differs an ok vayne vs a good vayne, and removing that would feel all she requires is tumbling out of skillshots. Your second proposal isnt much better because for me, about 80% of team fights I at least get autoed once by a melee, often brusier, tank or assassin which means silver bolts would be a useless ability (D3, judge what you want). My proposed solution would be to either remove rage blade interaction, lessen w damage, or remove her recent buff of 50% tumble cdr when in r. Making drastic changes to the champ will ruin her imo, or at least dumb down her gameplay, so I would rather just nerf her damage.
Critmaster Garen2 votesYour first proposal: I don't like it at all. Her condemn is one of the things that differs an ok vayne vs a good vayne
then good news, it would separate good vaynes from bad vaynes even more, since people who just use her e for a free, reliable disengage to make up for position mistakes and get a second chance after being gap closed on would get punished, while the good vaynes who use it properly to hit the wall stun and attempt to outposition their opponents would still get it.
Your second proposal ...
it wasnt to be taken literal. my general complaint is, that there is absolutely no condition attached to her w like to other % health true damage mechanics.
the entire justification of max health % true damage existing in champion kits is as a reward for achieving a certain objective that you have to go out of your way to achieve. these mechanics have counterplay for their opponents in a way, that the % true damage can be entirely avoided if you play properly against the champions that have it.
the same isnt true for vayne though.
she plays exactly the same with the w in her kit as she would play without it. she would be weaker, but she would still just attack the target closest to her that she can safely attack. it doesnt alter her gameplay and reward her to complete an objective like outpositioning your opponent like in fioras case, or getting into arms length of the villain, which is one single specific target on the enemy team, like in garens case.
vayne is a ranged champion and gets the same power as those melee champions with less conditions attached, despite having higher target access than either of them. this is the main problem with her.
shes like a ranged version of fiora, if fiora didnt have to care about vitals, but just auto attacked to get the damage off.
everything in her kit is reliable and entirely in her control. there are no elements of unreliability as justification for all that power. not even something as simple as skillshots.
the argument that other people have brought up with her w being a 3 hit passive doesnt hold up. were talking about a ranged champion here who stacks herself to the attack speed cap, has a short cooldown auto attack reset built into her kit, and even applies a hit with her e.
its physically impossible for all but maybe leblanc to get into her auto attack range, trade with her, and then disengage before she got a proc off, to drop the stacks and avoid taking that w damage. the 3 hit passive doesnt create counterplay in this case.
Rebonack26 votesI forget which Rioter said it, but it was mentioned years ago that when Vayne sneaks above a 50% win-rate it is usually a sign that she's over tuned.
Basically: She's a very niche champion (tank-busting front-line destroyer) that happens to be VERY popular. That means she's often picked into team compositions she's not suited against, which drives her win-rate down. If she's too powerful as a flex pick rather than a counter, she invalidates Tanks. And that's bad.
Flawless Fetus2 votesYears ago like back when we had morello and other people that knew what they were doing?
SgtAwesomeness24 votes$he ha$n't $old enough $kins yet.
Kanzler7 votesHonestly, i like vayne and thought the tumble CD reduction on the ult was unnecessary. Perhaps everyone would stop whining if they reverted that?
Daddy Ants1 votesHonestly, i like vayne and thought the tumble CD reduction on the ult was unnecessary. Perhaps everyone would stop whining if they reverted that?
The R buff needs to not come online fully at level 6.
It needs to go from 50% at all ranks to
10 / 30 / 50% at 6 / 11 / 16
SithesisLord3 votesIt needs to not come online at all.
Her Q is already on a low enough CD and she gains MS towards enemy champs.
She doesn't need MORE mobility.
Lovelle7 votesFor the same reason Riot nerfs Trundle whenever tanks are strong, biased balancing decisions. The main difference is that Vayne gets to kill everyone, while the former is only good at killing tanky targets.
ModAcademy Kayn2 voteswhile the former is only good at killing tanky targets.
This is the biggest load of bull I've seen yet. Trundle and Vayne equally have a single anti-tank ability, Trundle's R, Vayne's W. Trundle's R can still afflict anyone, it's just better on tanks as is Vaynes is. Trundle can kill anyone he get's his hands on, he just won't ever likely lose to a tank because of his ult. His Q doesn't even do %health damage, it's flat.
Moody P6 votesBecause vayne isn't a tank meta champion
General Theritt22 votesThe irony of you having Darius as your profile picture and saying "Vayne isn't a tank meta champion" is not lost on me.
Vayne's main effect, simple the EXISTENCE of her W makes her an absolute menace to tanks. Yes, she can be played against other characters and preform well enough, but true damage for a % of HP doesn't mean much to an assassin or ADC. The fact that she can overpower other ADCs within 2 autos without really investing into heavy damage items in favor of Attack speed defeats her purpose, her ratios are far too strong and potent, and crit with attack speed just increases her problematic state. Her ultimate is a pure stat boost with additional stealth, making the enemy ADC unable to target you for sets amounts of time, and kite your opponent thanks to being one of the few ADCs with a movement ability (see 
and 
for further details on how mobility ADCs can do a shit ton when they aren't nerfed). Her design is meant to be for ripping down heavy targets thanks to true damage which honestly should be what she's balanced around, not any other abilities, and even then, its problematic.
What should be more valuable? Draven dealing nearly 1k-1.3k damage on a single auto with his full abilities and passive items up, or a Vayne popping you for about 2k with a single auto with an instant auto reset, mobility boost, AD bonus, passives on items, AND ability effects. She simply out-stats other ADCs even though her design is implied to be for more delayed and drawn out fights, ones where tanks EXCEL. Draven ends fights quickly. These shouldn't be swapped around. Lategame vayne is supposed to be powerful, but hitting your second level on an ult shouldn't just declare the game OVER.
Moody P6 votesVayne has despite her supposed nature as a tank destroyer never been a strong pick at points of the game where tanks are particularly dominant, namely when there's multiple tank threats. There is too much CC coming from them for a short range carry like Vayne to deal with and a good chunk of them can reliably tag her through stealth either with point and clicks or the sheersize of their AoEs. The marksman that dominate these metas are long range ones who comfortably sit behind their own front line. Jinx, Tristana, Kog, Twitch etc.
Vayne is closer to being an anti bruiser than anything and does best in metas that have a lot of fighters, especially ones that can't easily pin her down or burst her hard.
No, I would not call her an anti tank. She is a dog champ in tank metas.
BoilTheOil1 votesWhy is he getting downvoted hes right
Moody P2 votesBoards gets extremely upset when Moody hits them with facts
NineTailedMystic7 votesBoards get upset when Moody acts haughty.
Velasan6 votesBecause Riot has made it clear they are OK with pushing things into the meta rather than let a meta form by people playing the game on their own.
During worlds they buffed Lee Sin Q and literally just said, yeah we're buffing Lee Sin Q because he's not meta and we want to see him at worlds.
New runes also do not equally provide for all champions. Some champions have all the runes they want, others are lacking. The rune system still needs a lot of fine tuning and some new additions. Particularly because the old system let you get so many bits and pieces of different stats into one set of pages (runes and masteries combined) that the new system doesn't provide. In the new system for example you literally can't get certain things together because it's not offered that way. If you can only take two trees you're always missing out on something.
Try it for yourself sometime. Take a couple of old pages you used to use for your champions. Write down everything those pages provided. Now compare it against the new system. You'll see there are either no equivalents to some of the old versions or they can't be used together because all the things you would want are on up to three different trees and you're only allowed to take two.
YG TheyWorshipMe1 votesThe old mastery was a masterpiece. You can either go 21-9-0, 0-30-0, or 10-10-10, or 6-21-3, whatever way you want, which is awesome. I also miss the old rune page, when I could go full AP, or full magic pen.
Bârd3 votesVayne is a tank buster second and a duelist first.
Even if tanks are bad, Vayne still has a purpose so long as she can effectively 1v1 people, and that function is useful.
3TWarrior1 votesvayne is not a duelist...in fact, most duelists crush her...
her E deters fighting, her Q deters fighting
the thing vayne does not want at all is a target that can stick to her...
she's currently extremely imbalanced because her kit is not meant to be meta....and is currently meta, while also letting her be practically untargetable because of her invisibility
3TWarrior1 votespantheon, jax, tryndamere, xin zhao , (not sure about sylas),
without her ultimate buff, more show up. It actually shows how stupidly OP she is right now that the only way to beat her in a straight fight is to blow her up before she can do anything...or have your kit specifically designed to be the best at fighting other people in straight fights
NemeBro2 votespantheon, jax, tryndamere, xin zhao , (not sure about sylas),
without her ultimate buff, more show up. It actually shows how stupidly OP she is right now that the only way to beat her in a straight fight is to blow her up before she can do anything...or have your kit specifically designed to be the best at fighting other people in straight fights
You can't possibly believe that Pantheon or Xin Zhao beat Vayne 1v1 past the early to mid game.
3TWarrior1 votesfor now it's pretty much whoever lands the first shot with xin but pantheon can build for it if he wants to
here's an example: are teemo, graves or quinn duelists because they nearsight/blind their opponent? no, because they still get squashed if anything gets close to them, well, a little differently in graves' case since he always has bonus armor but he still does not like opponents that can stick to him because of his limited attacks
Vayne being ridiculously overpowered does not mean that she is a duelist. Duelists get stronger when their opponents fight them and they want opponents to engage them... Vayne wants everyone to be at her maximum attack range so that she can chuck their hp bit by bit while avoiding any engages because she will get blown up...
ApathyAndGrief3 votesSeason 7 was so fun when you dealt no damage and teamfights consisted of tedious "Whoever has the most tanks wins"
There's a reason Tank players don't get sympathized with most of the time.
3TWarrior7 votesseason 7 was ardent censor where everything was focused around the marksman
also season 7 where jungler held the most influence because riot introduced burst items that made marksmen get MEMED if they weren't one of the very few burst marksmen
there was nothing about tanks in 7
ApathyAndGrief1 votesseason 7 was ardent censor where everything was focused around the marksman
also season 7 where jungler held the most influence because riot introduced burst items that made marksmen get MEMED if they weren't one of the very few burst marksmen
there was nothing about tanks in 7
You seemed to have forgotten "ADCs in 2017 LUL" Ardent censer meta was around the supports, not the adc. Also, Junglers have always had influence over the game since season 4. You also forgot the meta junglers at the time were 
and 
I'm not convinced you were even around in season 7 if you forgot the ardent censer meta lasted at the LAST 2 MONTHS OF THE SEASON.
3TWarrior1 votesi mentioned that they got memed for it XD but the entire point of that meta was that it wasn't the support that was strong but instead that the support made the Marksman even stronger, which riot had thought was a good way to counter the lethality burst meta that they had introduced before ardent censor
I was not around in season 7, but didn't khazix, teemo and twitch all get started that season due to 
making it easy for them to gank?
ApathyAndGrief1 votesThe issue being this; Why would teemo ever build ? Twitch wouldn't ever build either (His Jg in season 7 was terrible)
Duskblade Benefited AD assassins more than any other class. Only adc who ever built it was 
ADCs stopped being dogshit AT THE END of Season 7, this is was when the Tank meta FINALLY died in Season 7.
Why the ADCs were bad:
AD Assassins getting Lethality buffs
Team comps comprising of mostly Tanks (only way to counter lethality buffs)
ADC first being conceived over actual ADCs
Tanks became so meta because armor items are the only way to counter AD assassins, and an effective way to make ADCs not close to relevant.
ADCs were irrelevant even without Tanks because of 
Season 7 was either go mostly tanks comps or die to AD assassins
3TWarrior1 votesthere was not a tank meta during the ADC memefest, instead, mid and jungler took over and rarely top because carries could farm there without getting focused to such an extreme
this is why the burst marksmen took over and were pick/ban, they could accomplish their goal even without sustained damage. Miss fortune's ultimate as an example could whittle a large portion of the opposing team's health
you say that tanks "comprised most" of teams, but that was not true, instead, they maintained an average 50% win rate and their pick rates increased to match the other classes in their respective lanes
compared to season 5, where you had a mandatory AT LEAST 3 bulky characters per team...that just did not happen
Swarmer2 votestanks arent meta ? For past 2 years tanks with full tank build are 1shotting adcs and mages. You are 12-0 adc, but a tank from top or jungle with his 0-5 will come when hes gotten his 2 items finished and do 1Q or whatever and deal 2k damage to you. While you keep hitting him and kiting him dealing 0 damage.
Infernape6 votesTanks or juggernauts there's a difference between the two.
Swarmer1 votesTanks or juggernauts there's a difference between the two.
Juggernaut is a tank, since it still builds only tank items, has 3k + hp, has 200+ armor and mr, and deals 2k+ damage with 1 skill at 15th min.
Infernape5 votesA juggernaut is a fighter. 
are examples of juggernauts. They are durable (not as durable as an actual tank but are intended to deal damage but have little to no CC.
These are tanks. 
They have low damage, but high amounts of CC and utility.
LeBlanc Rose1 votesJuggernauts also have no mobility apart from speed boosts such as garen q, udyr e, skarner w. Only exception I can think of is urgot e, shyvana r, and the mini dashes of aatrox e and illaoi w.
LeBlanc Rose1 votesJust because you get it in customs with 9 people trying to give him the most gold and items in 15 mins doesn't mean it can occur in a regular game.
Swarmer1 votes[{quoted}](name=LeBlanc Rose,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPAP9GPm,comment-id=001a000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-23T08:15:32.651+0000)
Just because you get it in customs with 9 people trying to give him the most gold and items in 15 mins doesn't mean it can occur in a regular game.
you mean evey single ranked game, where the tanks with 2 items 1shot everyone with 4-5 items ?
LeBlanc Rose1 votesPlease, show me a clip where the 2 item darius oneshots a 5 item adc.
I dont even care if its a crit build, just show me please
HateDaddy1 votesI don’t think she’s “allowed,” she’s just currently over-stat’d
Critmaster Garen6 votesI don’t think she’s “allowed,” she’s just currently over-stat’d
that 50% cdr on her q isnt exactly just buffing her stats, but adding a new mechanic to her kit.
she was overstatted before the r buff though considering her play rate was still high and she already sat at slightly above 50% winrate.
