What's the point of having champions like Garen and Singed and other bruisers like them?

Agidyne··4 votes·1,154 views

Where are they supposed to be played?

Top lane? There's no point, Mages and overall Ranged champions will just annoy you to no end since you can never close the gap.

Mid lane? Maybe against Assassins, but still, there is no point as every Assassin is getting nerfed.

Jungle? So I can get executed by Wolves and please my team with below average ganks and clear times? No Thanks.

AD Carry? nice joke 10/10

Support? They get outclassed by Taric in every way. And Taric gets outclassed by all other supports, so lol.


Seriously.

Where should I play Singed?

He is not even good as a Counterpick since you can literally just pick a Mage and do whatever he does but better.

26 Comments

redniwediS3 votes

Why are you looking at things in such a linear way? The meta is constantly shifting, and right now it is not exactly friendly to the champions you are questioning. They were once useful, and they will be useful again. On top of this Top lane is the most volatile of all the lanes.

For a more specific answer Top lane is still the lane of choice for Singed and Garen. Their goal against a non-mage opponent is the same as it always is, however against a mage the goal is simply to survive. These two champions simply need to beef up and prepare for the team fight phase, where they can peel and disrupt as needed. You do not pick these champions for their dueling potential (except for Garen in very specific matchups), you pick them because of team fight potential, where as a mage is typically the exact opposite.

Agidyne3 votes

{quoted}

Why are you looking at things in such a linear way? The meta is constantly shifting, and right now it is not exactly friendly to the champions you are questioning.

The Meta hasn't favored Melee champions ever since the bruiser nerfs, which were like End Season III. I want to be able to first pick A Melee champion and don't lose at champion select because the enemy picked a ranged champion.

This has been an issue for a long time.

And while Cassiopeia and other mages and carries can be played Mid and Bot lane, Garen and many others can not.

They either become niche jungle picks, like Pantheon did.

Or they literally are trash tier as they can't be played anywhere.

Also, Garens teamfight potential sucks dick. Probably his biggest weakness.

It also doesn't help that Riot made Gnar, aka, a champion with a godlike laning phase and at the same time being teamfight powerhouse.

And when 2 melee champions face eachother in the LCS, the shoutcasters call it a "wet noodle fight"

Like, what the fuck.

TehNACHO2 votes

This is literally the linear thinking he's calling you out on.

To put that last quote into context, Yasuo vs Zed compared to Mundo vs Shyvana.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

The Meta hasn't favored Melee champions ever since the bruiser nerfs, which were like End Season III.

RekSai 54.6% winrate JarvanIV 53.6% winrate Leona 53.1% winrate Vi 53% winrate Sejuani 53% winrate Fiora 52.6% winrate

Stop lying to yourself. Melee champions are fine. http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-winrate&range=monthly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=ranked

Agidyne2 votes

{quoted}

RekSai 54.6% winrate JarvanIV 53.6% winrate Leona 53.1% winrate Vi 53% winrate Sejuani 53% winrate Fiora 52.6% winrate

Stop lying to yourself. Melee champions are fine. http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-winrate&range=monthly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=ranked

Reksai - Jungle Jarvan - Jungle Vi - Jungle Sejuani - Jungle Leona - Support Fiora - 54% Win rate in Bronze - 48% - 49% Win Rate in Platinum +

Also

Why did you skip Cassiopeia?

Highest Win rate atm.

redniwediS1 votes

Cass isn't melee... His list is of melee champions...

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

Reksai - Jungle Jarvan - Jungle Vi - Jungle Sejuani - Jungle Leona - Support Fiora - 54% Win rate in Bronze - 48% - 49% Win Rate in Platinum +

Also

Why did you skip Cassiopeia?

Highest Win rate atm.

Oh, so now it's just melee top laners? Not allowed to pick junglers? I guess I'll just ignore this statement then:

{quoted}

Where are they supposed to be played?

Jungle? So I can get executed by Wolves and please my team with below average ganks and clear times? No Thanks.

Hey did you know that J4 is also a popular top lane pick? And Reksai as well?

I skipped Cassiopeia because she's a ranged mage and your thread is about melees. Or did you forget?

Either way I'm done arguing since you clearly have your fingers in your ears. You don't want melees to be strong, because they clearly are. You just want to complain.

Agidyne1 votes

{quoted}

Oh, so now it's just melee top laners? Not allowed to pick junglers? I guess I'll just ignore this statement then:

Hey did you know that J4 is also a popular top lane pick? And Reksai as well?

I skipped Cassiopeia because she's a ranged mage and your thread is about melees. Or did you forget?

Either way I'm done arguing since you clearly have your fingers in your ears. You don't want melees to be strong, because they clearly are. You just want to complain.

Yes

The issue is only with Top lane.

lol

Junglers are fine.

A melee jungler doesn't have to deal with a ranged jungler poking him from nowhere, does he?

TheFrozenIsles2 votes

Where did you get Cass has the highest win rate? I just look up Lolking http://www.lolking.net/ and she not even in there top 15.

redniwediS1 votes

Many melees do very, very well against ranged champions. Garen can actually be a hard counter to Gnar if you play toward Garen's strengths and not Gnar's. As for his team fighting he is beefy, has a silence for whoever jumps your carries, can spread additional armor shread to a large number of people, and has an execute to remove a priority target from the fight early. Is he the most useful? No. Is he an unviable choice? Also no.

If you look for the bad in this situation you will find it, and that's all you appear to be doing. I have been a Garen main since season 1, and have managed to make him useful in every season since. It takes a bit more work to do well, and if you are unwilling to put in that extra effort things will likely not change from their current state until Riot buffs melees again. If you do put in the extra effort, however, you will find that the current meta is not nearly as harsh as people would make it seem.

I'm hoping you're different, since I've had this exact argument many times and my points usually get ignored in favor of a "your stupid, you're points are stupid, melee sucks" argument. Mages are a problem because they are relatively new to Top lane. ADCs were a problem for a short while too, and Assassins, and Tanks. Some players adapted, others moved lanes, but some stuck it out and learned to deal with each and every new matchup. This last mindset is pretty much required if you plan to play Bruisers that are not meta. It's not easy, but it is very possible if you're willing to try.

Meep Man2 votes

Garen has the massive health regeneration and has no mana, making him only have to go back to but items late game basically. Garen can withstand the poke as well due to his W and Passive.

Singed is in a weird spot. He could use some help, not in damage or tankiness, but more in utility he gives to his team.

Agidyne2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEdsfE0E,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-26T18:42:11.492+0000)

Garen has the massive health regeneration and has no mana, making him only have to go back to but items late game basically. Garen can withstand the poke as well due to his W and Passive.

Singed is in a weird spot. He could use some help, not in damage or tankiness, but more in utility he gives to his team.

You mistaken what I said.

It's not about withstanding the poke.

It's about being able to poke them back.

Singed is balanced against meele champions.

He doesn't beat anything but he isn't exactly beaten by anything either.

Against ranged however, he simply blows.

There is nothing you can do but eat the shit they throw at you without being able to poke back.

This is a thing with nearly every single bruiser, Irelia being the only one who can deal with Ranged champions due to her stun and her Q resetability aswell as Natural Sustain. But I bet she has nerfs coming her way anyway so she doesn't really count.

Drunk Rummate2 votes

well singed will just proxy farm and a mage will struggle super hard to farm under turret without immediately exhausting their mana pool. so he's actually an excellent pick into a mage top.

garen is just... garen. he's outdated and there are a lot of better alternative picks to him.

Agidyne2 votes

{quoted}

well singed will just proxy farm and a mage will struggle super hard to farm under turret without immediately exhausting their mana pool. so he's actually an excellent pick into a mage top.

lol?

Singed just gets shit on by every single mage, he can't even proxy since a Mage can harass him without him ever being able to harass them back.

And how the fuck do you even have trouble farming with a mage nowadays with so many decent Mana Regen items which also gives both Ability Power and Cooldown reduction?

By Proxy, all you are doing is giving them free farm.

disregardable3 votes

with so many decent Mana Regen items

wow, I almost thought you were serious for a second there.

Agidyne2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEdsfE0E,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-01-26T18:55:08.351+0000)

wow, I almost thought you were serious for a second there.

Morellos, Athenes and Archangel are not enough?

You only need one of those and I guarantee you will never run OOM unless you are spamming your spells like a retard and don't know how to last hit.

You know what Sucks ass?

MR Itemization.

There is Banshees, which is the best item.

Hexdrinker to survive early Magic Damage all ins, which is also good. Tho you might want to sell it for a Banshees instead of upgrading it.

Abyssal scepter, which is extremely situational and only really useful on Magic Damage dealers.

Visage which is extremely niche and core on only Volibear and Mundo

and the other ones are just not even worth mentioning.

Bring Back Force of Nature.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

Yeah life must really suck when you can spend 1450 gold on an item that doubles your magic resist, gives you 25 AD, and a 250 hp shield whenever you get bursted.

Stop kidding yourself. Visage has 10% CDR and is fantastic on a lot of champions outside voli and mundo. The best boots in the game come with 25 magic resist on them too. And considering that most AP champions are burst oriented, health items are absurdly efficient against them as well. Warmogs in particular is extremely good against APs.

Agidyne2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah life must really suck when you can spend 1450 gold on an item that doubles your magic resist, gives you 25 AD, and a 250 hp shield whenever you get bursted.

Stop kidding yourself. Visage has 10% CDR and is fantastic on a lot of champions outside voli and mundo. The best boots in the game come with 25 magic resist on them too. And considering that most AP champions are burst oriented, health items are absurdly efficient against them as well. Warmogs in particular is extremely good against APs.

Visage would be fantastic if it gave like 70 MR.

Which it doesn't.

You can hit 200 Armor with 1 single item yet you need like 3 to hit 200 MR.

What a joke.

Double AP Comps exist because of that.

Oh, and Armguard > Hexdrinker. One builds into the most broken item in the game, the other builds into a "Maw" which is so good, you are better off selling it and getting a Banshess Veil instead.

disregardable1 votes

You only need one of those and I guarantee you will never run OOM unless you are spamming your spells like a retard and don't know how to last hit.

Mathematically, you're better off getting 2 Doran's rings or a Doran's ring and Forbidden Idol than getting Chalice. The passive is that nerfed. It is designed so that it is only kind of useful when you are oom, the thing you need to avoid. Athene's is never worth.

Archangels also makes me spam my spells til oom so I can get to the point where I won't go oom, and it takes 30 minutes to hit that point. Not worth, but it's the best late game item.

Morrellos is the least expensive and has the best regen out of the three, and you will still have to wait through 7 levels to get it, and you will still go oom with it in the mid game. If you are Zilean, you'll probably need both this and Seraph's.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

the point of proxy farming is to avoid interaction with your lane opponent and force them to farm under tower while it takes damage from minions.

how is a mage going to poke singed while he's proxy farming near the inhibitor turret? they can't. what's going to happen is they're going to sit at their turret, burning mana occasionally to make sure they get maximum CS, and singed is going to get a free lane.

every now and then the jungler will come and try to kill singed, but if the mage leaves his tower he loses a ton of CS that singed does not miss, while singed can simply ghost or outmaneuver to escape. and even if he dies its generally at the cost of 1-2 full waves of minions from the roaming laner which almost amounts to the gold and experience of a kill.

Agidyne2 votes

{quoted}

the point of proxy farming is to avoid interaction with your lane opponent and force them to farm under tower while it takes damage from minions.

how is a mage going to poke singed while he's proxy farming near the inhibitor turret? they can't. what's going to happen is they're going to sit at their turret, burning mana occasionally to make sure they get maximum CS, and singed is going to get a free lane.

every now and then the jungler will come and try to kill singed, but if the mage leaves his tower he loses a ton of CS that singed does not miss, while singed can simply ghost or outmaneuver to escape. and even if he dies its generally at the cost of 1-2 full waves of minions from the roaming laner which almost amounts to the gold and experience of a kill.

They can poke you down in between Minion Waves.

And you can't fling them back to force them to miss CS because they never really close the gap on you.

Lol.

The Whamboozler2 votes

The point of Singed top is lulz. If you see the enemy pick a mage top, pick someone else top. If you pick Singed top early, you need to expect you'll get countered. He's a niche pick that you can't rally pick early unless you want to proxy all game.

Garen also, is a niche pick top for dealing with a handful of champs that give others trouble then snowball outta control. You shouldn't pick him unless you kow you're in a decent match up for him. If you're going to first pick a top, pick one that's harder to counter than Garen and Singed. That doesn't make them awful champs, just... selective.

Rawrful2 votes

Ohh, I get it. From reading his responses, the OP doesn't actually know what proxy farming is. Blue team Singed is farming Red minions at Red teams inhibitor turret. Blue team top lane champion can: Farm minions under his tower or walk back to his inhibitor and try to chase down Singed.

By farming by the inhibitor turret and pulling the minion wave into the jungle, Singed makes the enemy spend a solid 10+ seconds walking back to him... And since farming under tower takes time (9 tower shots? Two per melee, one per caster?) so you are going to be spending at least 10 seconds farming the individual wave if you want all the gold. So stepping back from your tower to try to get Singed guarantees at least one minion wave missed, two if you don't immediately run backwards the moment you reach him.

If the enemy farms under tower, his tower takes damage and he never interacts with Singed. If he tries to walk back to deal with Singed, Singed just walks into the jungle and the enemy loses the wave at tower, if he chases Singed in hopes of killing him (Which is hard, because Singed runs ghost) he loses 2+ waves.

A kill is worth ~300, then ~275, then ~220 if on the same target. Two minion waves early game is worth ~240 gold, ~280 if a cannon is missed and the value only goes upwards. So, even if Singed doesn't get away and dies at the cost of the enemy top lane losing two minion waves (Which they will if they chase you long enough to kill you), you go pretty close to "even" on gold value of dying. It is still bad, because you aren't farming while dead, but it get to be more and more valuable the more you die. Unless, of course, you just walk into the enemy inhibitor turret and Execute. When you execute, you lose almost nothing because your opponent is missing waves to get to you, so they miss both gold from minion, XP from minions. You end up getting (Way) ahead in gold and XP if you can execute.

At the same time, it is this brutally annoying thorn in the jungler's side. Because he KNOWS you have his top side jungle warded. If you are high on HP, you can miss a wave yourself to go counter jungle him. If you are low on HP, you can see him coming and execute before he has a chance to kill you, wasting his time.

So, often, you find yourself being left alone when you proxy, which gets you 100% perfect farm because... Well, you aren't competing with your own minion or tower ever for them, so you always get them. And, more quickly than you would think, the enemy top tower dies unless the laner is actively tanking the minions... Which only works if they have a ton of sustain/shield.

Which is why we saw Looper dominate a game at worlds with Proxy Singed. Yes, Singed is good enough to have been played at worlds and do very, very well.

And, on the topic of Garen, he does okayish. He counters a few things pretty well, and is countered by ranged champions pretty hard. He could use some buffs, but he is still fun to play.

Done251 votes

Well for one thing Singed is a Tank.

Last I checked he had trouble jungling, but maybe Gromp changed that. The only other place he can really go is Top.

He gets poked to death in mid and is less than ideal at bottom.

TheFrozenIsles1 votes

I sort of agree with Singed. He one of my fav champs but his only thing he really good at his proxy farming. Maybe they can give him a new R. I keep hearing people saying Riot dont like big ball of states and that is really what his R is.

Terff1 votes

singed can just proxy farm up top and do very well at distracting their team

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