An Open Letter to Fearless Regarding the Sona Changes

ModUlanopo··49 votes·15,889 views

Dear Fearless,

You may recall that I was one of the first people to reply to the announcement that Sona was going to be reworked. I made one of the first comments to that discussion and it remains the most upvoted entry. I consider myself a support main, with a specialization in Sona. I applied to the PBE, but did not receive an invite. I have played two Co-Op vs. AI matches with her on live. While that may not sound like much, it's enough to get a feel for the reality of the rework.

Put bluntly, I think you failed to provide a viable product and your communication with the community has been ineffective. This isn't personal. I don't know you nearly well enough for it to be personal. So, if you perceive any of this as an attack, please remember that it is not intended as such.


A Rework Needs to Address a Champion's Place in the Game

Sona was not in a good place before the rework. Her pick/ban rates were low and she was routinely outclassed by more modern supports. Part of this is simply the march of new technology and part of this is Riot's desire to move toward flashy, high-risk plays. Sona was also a prime target for a rework because her auras were bad for the game. They had to go.

While this rework made her kit less toxic, it did nothing to address her position in the meta. There is nothing on this frame that I can point to and say, "This is a good reason to pick Sona." Keep in mind that one of the chief complaints about her kit was that she felt like an "ult delivery system," so that can't be her role now. Her ult is comparable to those of Amumu and Zyra, but people pick them for reasons other than the ult. I feel that you were hyperf-focused on getting rid of the auras and forgot to define what Sona does. Now, to be fair, she had this problem before they handed her to you, but developing a role for her should have been the first step in the process.


This Rework Damages Important Ratios

In game design, there are two important ratios: Risk vs. Reward and Reward for Effort. Both of those ratios went in the wrong direction.

Risk vs. Reward: Sona now has to be significantly closer to the front line, but she does not gain any benefit from this increased risk, nor were any of her stats changed to reflect this increased risk. She went from being a champion who sat at mid to long range, dipping in to poke, to a champion that has to "snuggle" down in the scrum to be effective. If you look over the complaints following the live release, this is among the most common.

It's worth noting that the enemy bruisers and assassins are going to be itching to have a squishy target to jump on. I saw this several times in my matches. I went forward to shield someone and was killed in an eye blink. That felt incredibly punishing.

Another component of this ratio is that I am now forced to stack up with my allies, making me (and my allies) more vulnerable to AoE comps. The reward for tagging should at least be equal to the increased damage I take while stacked, but I don't feel that it is.

There were several times in my matches where I couldn't get to my allies and this felt awful. This was especially bad in the early laning phase.

Changing the risk vs. reward ratio is also very dangerous because it causes a massive change in feel. I already own risky supports. People who liked Sona now have to adapt to a much riskier position or give up on the champion. Given that she is mostly a fan pick as it is, this is really bad.

Reward for Effort: The harder you have to work for something, the more you expect out of it. People learn this as children. From a play balance perspective, this means that complex mechanics and kits should provide more options, rather than increased power. League does a decent job of this, except when it comes to modal champions like Elise and Jayce.

This rework represents a massive increase in the amount of effort required to use her abilities "properly." I say this because it feels as though she was balanced around getting most, if not all, of her allies in her "snuggle zones." When I play her, I do not feel like I am rewarded for tagging people; I feel like this is the baseline and I am being punished when I can't get to my teammates. This is especially bad because Sona is touted as an easy, "entry-level" support.


Her New Mechanics Chew Up Mental Bandwidth

When I use her Q, I lose effectiveness unless both I and my ADC gain the benefit of the secondary effect. This means that I have to slide forward, use Q, autoattack, then move to tag my teammate. This is not a simple maneuver for a routine activity. The same goes for her W.

Worse, this is a terrible use of bandwidth. Every time I use my abilities I have to track not only the position of my enemies, but those of my allies. We're not talking about a generalized sense, either. I have to track their position, likely movement and how I'm going to get to them to a precise degree. This is because the tiny "snuggle zones" require me to manage my positioning in a way that no one else is tasked with. You said that you wanted it to be a non-trivial exercise to apply the buffs, but I feel that you swung too far in the opposite direction.


I Hate Her New E With Every Fiber of my Being

A short list:

  • I have to have the same tier of boots as my allies or I can't apply the buff. I'm on a support salary.
  • Applying the buff requires people to move in a way that is unnatural. No one clusters like that.
  • I feel like I am being forced to choose between leveling things that I enjoy (Q and W) and the thing that I need to tag people because my effectiveness is now suddenly based on my speed. I feel that this diffuses my impact on fights.
  • I feel that it's insufficient to get me out of a bad situation... ever. There are too many dashes and whatnot compared to the long cooldown.
  • I do not feel like I can use it to get my allies onto a fleeing target that they wouldn't have caught without me.

Her "Snuggle Zones" are Incompatible with Her Passive

When I use an ability, the first thing I want to do is move so that I'm tagging the people who weren't already in the zone because otherwise I feel like I am not getting enough out of the ability. This means that I have to choose between optimizing the buff and, you know, fighting. This is a really frustrating decision gate. It adds complexity for no reason.


Her New Mechanics Suck in Running Fights

This is an area where I feel especially forced to level E and buy speed boots, because my closure rates with my allies is not fast enough otherwise. This feels like a direct nerf to my viability in skirmishes. Heaven help me if my allies have some sort of engage or dash mechanic, because there's no chance of getting the buff on them then.


Her W is Really Clunky

The mechanic for applying the shield is highly counterintuitive. The shield is really short, so I either have to be right on top of the target (not gonna happen in most circumstances) or I have to move to tag them. This makes is very difficult to use the shield to prevent damage, especially in skirmish and siege situations. The only time it felt effective was during pile-on teamfights. Given the method of application, I don't understand why it couldn't last longer.

You commented in this post about how people perceive the shield portion of the ability. Put bluntly, I don't think that "I'm adding a weak shield to make up for a nerfed heal" is good design theory. People want their powers to have an impact on the game.


Too Much of Her Power is On Other People

I feel like her power was balanced around her buffing her allies, so being alone is much worse than it was before. I did not feel like I had any impact or survivability in any 1v1. This was compounded by the fact that my E was never a viable escape maneuver.


Our Feedback was not Handled Appropriately

Going back over your posts, I feel that the vast majority can be distilled down to "Wait until you play it" or "Our internal tests say you're wrong." Given that the PBE is an invite-only environment, the first comment is completely unacceptable, especially since it appears that invites were set prior to the announcement of the rework. I know at least forty people who applied, most of them immediately after the announcement. Not a single one of them got in.

This is especially upsetting because we were told that Sona was going to be on the PBE for longer than other champions because you "wanted to get it right." Not only was this not true, but the only change that was made was the increase to to her "snuggle zones." It did not feel like you listened to the community at all.

Also, if internal testing is going to be an absolute trump to our suggestions, why bother to solicit feedback at all? It was highly irritating to be told over and over what amounted to "You guys just don't get it." It was disrespectful and unprofessional.


Say Nice Things About Detroit

I know that I have been really negative here and that some of it might come across as an attack, but there were some positive aspects to the rework.

  • Getting rid of the auras was a good thing.
  • The Heal on her W felt much better than I expected.
  • I like the increased visibility of my abilities. It felt like my team could "see me" more.
  • I was wrong about the increase in cooldowns. I feel like my abilities are up when I want them (except W).
  • I feel that you did a good job of giving me high points other than my ult.
  • I was also wrong about my ADC using my Q buff. They recognized what it was and used it appropriately.

174 Comments

RiotFearless11 votes

I have played two Co-Op vs. AI matches with her on live. While that may not sound like much, it's enough to get a feel for the reality of the rework.

I'm going to have to disagree there. We don't build or balance the game for PvE, and I know I personally would never trust a sample size of 2 games to make meaningful analysis.


A Rework Needs to Address a Champion's Place in the Game

While this rework made her kit less toxic, it did nothing to address her position in the meta.

So these two things are actually slightly at odds with themselves. When we evaluate a champion and make changes, we do spend a great deal of time making sure they have a place in the game as a whole. We constantly evaluate their strengths and weaknesses, their interactions with champs, items, etc. However, we don't (and I'd argue really shouldn't) try to make a champ fit the current meta. Meta, by definition will always favor some champs over others. Making Sona viable for the current meta is very likely to damage her position in the game. Basically, if the meta favors most of the champs that do well against Sona, and we make Sona strong in that environment, she has to be completely brokenly OP. If the meta capitalizes on Sona's weaknesses, and we make her strong despite that we end up having to give her no meaningful weakness.

Going to reply in blocks due to the length of this. Our comment system is kind of exploding as I try this. Apologies for a slow response.

ModUlanopo6 votes

Yeah, I'm having trouble with the new system, as well. So I'm not going to be able to quote, as I can't figure out how to do that.

I'm going to have to disagree there. We don't build or balance the game for PvE, and I know I personally would never trust a sample size of 2 games to make meaningful analysis.

EDIT: This is going to sound really testy, but it's an honest question. How many games in what formats do I need to play before I'm allowed to have and express an opinion that isn't immediately dismissed for lack of experience?

I might not be able to speak to her overall viability, but I feel comfortable speaking about how I feel when I play her, where those feelings come from and what they mean. I don't have to eat 100 raw tomatoes to know that I can't eat them (they make me sick). I haven't been able to get SR matches with her because my friends have been busy and I minimize my exposure to toxicity by queuing with them. I also wasn't going to go into a competitive environment without having at least experienced the mechanics. That's not fair to my team.

I just got done with an ARAM with her and I quizzed my teammates after the fact. I will say that I felt more comfortable with her. I still found the exercise of Q/AA or buff cumbersome. The shields felt more effective, but my allies didn't feel that they made that much difference. I was building utility because of the oppo comp, but I don't think that I should be forced to build CDR/AP to be effective.

The heal and shield combo still felt awkward.

When I asked how they felt about the Q buff, nither of them had noticed it. They said it wasn't visible enough for them to be aware of it and they both said that it was invisible power because the time frame was too short for them to change their action to take advantage of it.

So these two things are actually slightly at odds with themselves. When we evaluate a champion and make changes, we do spend a great deal of time making sure they have a place in the game as a whole.

I think we're talking past each other a little bit here. I'm not asking you to address her relative position, though I am concerned about it. I want Sona to have a role. When I asked my friends, I put it this way:

If you were describing Sona to an inexperienced player, how would you finish this sentence: "You should bring Sona because _______________".

If you can answer that question, I will gleefully concede the point.

RiotFearless5 votes

If you were describing Sona to an inexperienced player, how would you finish this sentence: "You should bring Sona because _______________".

If you can answer that question, I will gleefully concede the point.

because:

  • Her ult is immensely powerful.
  • She has great poke and sustain.
  • She gives her allies tremendous amounts of power in a team fight.

Edit to fix formatting.

Hellioning8 votes

Her ult is powerful, yes, but I'm gonna have to disagree on the other two points. Poking is incredibly risky as Sona, because she's squishy as all hell and most of the big 'engage' options in bot lane, like Leona E or Thresh hook, have a longer range than her Q and her auto. Her sustain is fine, but it's going to drain her mana, and as a support, she can't really afford to get mana regen items early. The earliest you can probably get a chalice is after your sightstone and maybe boots, and by that time her Q+power chord is starting to lose it's luster against the common supports.

I also don't think she gives her allies 'tremendous amounts of power' anymore. The shield is good, but that's not really power, her E is useful but minor in a teamfight, and her Q is very easy to not use, either because you simply can't get to the melee or because most mages don't autoattack. Like, it's useless on Karthus, Anivia, Cass, most combo mages who want to do their thing and GTFO, most siege mages who don't want to get in range to auto anyway...

ModUlanopo5 votes

I thought we were moving away from "Ult dispensing system" as a theme. I will grant you that it is an excellent reason to pick her and one of the things that drew me to her in the first place. Can we agree on strong partial credit?

I will agree that poke and sustain are qualities she has in significant measure, but I feel that they have been depreciated somewhat by the rework.

I don't really know how to respond to the third point, as that's basically why you bring any champion. I mean, no one's going to pick a champion that doesn't bring much to a team fight, right? I would feel more comfortable if you had a better description/vision for what kind of power she brings to a team fight.

However, I'm going to let this one go, because "powerful ult" isn't the answer I was hoping for, but it is an answer.

RiotFearless5 votes

On the third point, the amount of power she gives to her allies compared to other supports and other champs in the game is a defining portion of Sona's kit.

As much as we are giving Sona more impact outside of her ult, without changing Crescendo, it will always be so powerful that it will define a reason to take Sona. Sona's ult is really awesome, even if it's probably a little too amazing for the game sometimes.

ModUlanopo11 votes

Can you speak to how Crescendo is valued relative to similar ults on Wukong, Zyra and Amumu?

Kaeleal2 votes

You can't compare abilities outside of their respective character kits. The three you pointed out have different weaknesses and strengths compared to Sona.

ModUlanopo5 votes

His comment boils down to "Sona can't have nice things because her ult is too good." My question is about how other large, disruptive ults limit or change the kit that they're on.

Flash + Ult is a common concern for Sona. Are there things that cannot be on Wukong because he can dash + ult? What does he give up for having that ult?

Zyra has significantly more burst, zone control and CC than Sona. People can walk out of her ult, but how does having a large knockup limit the rest of her kit?

Amumu's ult is much larger, but it's point blank and shorter. In terms of coordination and application, however, it's considerably easier to use.

Sightless663 votes

I'd like to hear your response to the feeling that her poke and sustain have gone down with the rework. A lot of us really like Sona for being the attrition support, and it does seem like that got weaker with the rework. Do you agree?

Hexflashed8 votes

If you were describing Sona to an inexperienced player, how would you finish this sentence: "You should bring Sona because _______________".

If you can answer that question, I will gleefully concede the point.

because:

  • Her ult is immensely powerful.

LOL. You act like it's a giant traveling knockup, something that can't be countered (face the wind, says Yasuo / Braum), or that she's game breaking. Nobody says her ult is the best in the game anymore, are you living in season 2?

You pretend to think she can burst people with it now and it's a spell that's used every 10-15 seconds (hello Nami Q). Try building her AP without any defenses, you'll die before you can even hit R. Don't believe me? Go play against a smart Rengar / assassin who catches you out while you ward river. They will enjoy your tears and screams for mercy. Hell, they don't even have to be an assassin. Any form of damage will do. Oh is that a Lux laser I see? It's ok I'm on full health... "You have been slain".

  • She has great poke and sustain.

Poke? She will die (via CC enemy reaction) in lane instantly if she even ATTEMPTS this. You act like her Q targeting is reliable and doesn't already put her in a risky situation. If anything blocks your pathing, you just wasted the trade.

Sustain? Why sustain with a single spell when you can poke AND sustain spam Nami's W all day.

  • She gives her allies tremendous amounts of power in a team fight.

Edit to fix formatting.

You're joking right? With the duration of these "buffs" being so LITTLE TIME to react and hardly visible to your team mates, good luck making use of that buff.

Let's not forget the shit range. Too busy telling my team mates "STOP OUT RUNNING MY AURA" to even give it to them. Also, you can forget about giving it to anything but the ADC, you'll never be safe if you're trying to tag the melee front line.

Btw, thanks for the shield buffs. They do nothing 90% of the time even with my Korean reflexes. Too busy trying to keep the ADC from falling below half health so they don't get instagibbed.

Oh, and E is amazing. It's just what I imagined. A speed boost that I have to run either backwards to tag someone (wtf?) or tell my team to slow down so they can go faster for 1.5 seconds, effectively giving them no distance gained.

PS: I played Sona +15 games in 4.13 in a PvP setting, and I still agree with everything that the OP said. Every single damn thing he said. I'm dead serious and yes I read the entire text wall.

You want to know the tl;dr about Sona so you can understand what's wrong with her? She's NOT FUN, she's NOT USEFUL, and she's a LIABILITY.

ModUlanopo3 votes

PS: I played Sona +15 games in 4.13 in a PvP setting, and I still agree with everything that the OP said. Every single damn thing he said. I'm dead serious and yes I read the entire text wall.

Was it really that bad? I left a bunch of stuff out because it felt like I was just piling it on at that point.

ShadowCleave2123 votes

Yes actually, I've watched plenty of games now to agree that she is not useful, and that she is a liability. I also watched someone I know try to take her to team builder and got kicked 3 times from groups because Sona is too heavy to carry.

I personally have only played one bot game with her. I managed to do okay, but I had to build tank items and run 0/17/13 masteries. Even with 110+ armor and 110+ mr I was still dying way too fast to people who only had boots and dorans. My shield didn't even absorb a full auto attack, and I was hardly spamming spells. The new strategy I've found is to sit on one charge for the chord, then go in WITH MY ADC for a W+Q+AUTO combo when poking, and using W again to cancel the tradeoff damage and regain my first charge towards chord.

XXnIE66Rui2 votes

Strictly my experience against bots: bots aren't very good at trading, and you can snowball against them easily if your lane partner is quick. Best build path I've found for bots: FQC or Coin > Sheen > Boots > Medallion OR Tier 2 Boots > Finish Lich Bane (greatly increases her poke potential, extra move speed, +AP) > Medallion OR Tier 2 Boots > Talisman > Situational (preferrably AP).

You can skip Sightstone for bots, but I've been including it just to mimic a proper PvP build (I don't feel comfortable bringing her into PvP just yet). I generally go for Sheen first if I can afford it (better early trading), then Sightstone, then on with the build path as usual.

I also bring 10% CDR via masteries, plus 20% from Talisman (I always pick it over the FQC line in the end because of the CDR+extra speed steroid+mana regen) means I'll go for a 10% CDR item after Talisman (Twin Shadows, Athene's, Locket etc). I like to wrap up with Rylai's largely for the slows+health, but a Zhonya's can work for extra armor. (AP seems to be her core stat - everything scales so much better with it that you really can't afford to pass it up as a stat).

She's pretty good against bots, largely because bots are silly and don't know how to teamfight/allow you to position for good ults. You just can't let yourself get caught early on, which... obviously isn't a viable strategy against people, because getting caught will happen sometimes.

Kynami5 votes

Talisman is now only 10% CDR, the compensation was the 20 MS on the item.

Cuix1 votes

You should bring Sona because we have a siege comp and can therefore get tons of power from her without needing her to always be in a risky spot. Plus, her E and R give us great tools to decide when and where we fight, if at all.

You should bring Sona because I'm going to take Cait bot, and her Q procs will let us harass easily. R + Trap + E PC is a lot of lockdown, too, for a free level 6 kill.

You should bring Sona because we have multiple high-priority threats, like Kog + Kas or Jinx + Yas, so if the enemy exploits her squishiness then they're not using things on the champions currently smashing their faces. If they go after the priority targets, then Sona is free to use her auras optimally and constantly dish out power.

You should bring Sona because we're reviving the "Press R and run at them" teamcomps of late Season 2, and her E makes that much easier and she'll be near teammates all the time.

Pika3102 votes

You should bring Sona because we have a siege comp and can therefore get tons of power from her without needing her to always be in a risky spot. Plus, her E and R give us great tools to decide when and where we fight, if at all.

Sona has lost all sieging potential. Her Q no longer helps push turrets, Staccato's damage has been nerfed and E is next to useless for rotations without granting passive MS. She's specifically a teamfight-oriented champion now.

You should bring Sona because we have multiple high-priority threats, like Kog + Kas or Jinx + Yas, so if the enemy exploits her squishiness then they're not using things on the champions currently smashing their faces. If they go after the priority targets, then Sona is free to use her auras optimally and constantly dish out power.

The same can be said for every other support as well.

Cuix1 votes

Her siege power is HUGE. She makes poke from Kog/Ez/Cait/Trist extremely strong, her W negates enemy poke/harass, her E ensures enemy engages are difficult or just not possible, and her ult makes it even less likely that they can engage successfully.

Most other supports aren't repeatedly high-power threats in teamfights. Sona creates power constantly and in dramatic ways while the fight is happening, while someone like Nami or Thresh has tools more relevant to pre-fight and post-fight scenarios.

Pika3103 votes

Nami's E can be used for poke, W for negating Harass, both Q and R prevent engagement. I don't see any point in defending Thresh, every team is afraid of him at all points of the game. His strength should go without saying, just like Braum.

WestboroGaming11 votes

I've played two games on live. One in which I did pretty well cause I had my ad in skype. The other was a train wreck. IT LITERALLY TOOK TWO PEOPLE COORDINATING OVER VOICE CHAT TO MAKE IT WORK. Just trying to handle all that positioning/planning/map awareness on top of the normal support stuff was causing me to smoke from my ears.

I don't enjoy new Sona, I'm fairly sure I could make her work but I would not have fun. This is pretty much the same thing they did with Karma. Ask questions, not reply for long time, come out with rework, tell everyone to try it before judging whilst we literally cant due to PBE, rush it out while ignoring feedback, act surprised when folks who enjoy said champs are upset.

All thats left is for Riot to say "Look at all the new people who enjoy Sona now! Fuck you old Sona players."

RiotFearless5 votes

Risk vs. Reward: Sona now has to be significantly closer to the front line, but she does not gain any benefit from this increased risk, nor were any of her stats changed to reflect this increased risk. She went from being a champion who sat at mid to long range, dipping in to poke, to a champion that has to "snuggle" down in the scrum to be effective. If you look over the complaints following the live release, this is among the most common.

This is not true. She was given increased base armor and increased HP for every level outside of 1-3. This means that she is more tanky for every common teamfight situation outside of level 1 fights. In level one fights, the power given from either a team wide Q proc or a full team shield is flat out bonkers.

It's worth noting that the enemy bruisers and assassins are going to be itching to have a squishy target to jump on. I saw this several times in my matches. I went forward to shield someone and was killed in an eye blink. That felt incredibly punishing.

I've seen the mindset in live games and in our playtests, but I've also seen Sona deal very well with the situation. An assassin that tries to brute force a kill on Sona will easily pay for it due to W PC, exhaust, ult and the increased shield + heal when used well. I'm not saying she might not die, but I think Sona has the tools to make sure her team comes out on top for it.

Another component of this ratio is that I am now forced to stack up with my allies, making me (and my allies) more vulnerable to AoE comps. The reward for tagging should at least be equal to the increased damage I take while stacked, but I don't feel that it is.

Haven't seen this playing out in ways that seem problematic. The ability to grant the entire team a shield, help them reposition, and give them a massive buff for the fight that happens in that grouping seems to balance this out to some degree.

There were several times in my matches where I couldn't get to my allies and this felt awful. This was especially bad in the early laning phase.

What stopped you from moving near your allies in early laning? Bots are especially not great at zoning, so very interested if there is a problem I'm not understanding.

Changing the risk vs. reward ratio is also very dangerous because it causes a massive change in feel. I already own risky supports. People who liked Sona now have to adapt to a much riskier position or give up on the champion. Given that she is mostly a fan pick as it is, this is really bad.

The idea of her being a less played champion isn't supported by global data. There are regions where she is very high in play rate. That being said, there is an adjustment cost for any update, and for Sona, one of the new elements is being in a place where you interact with your team more visibly and directly. That does increase risk, but mostly because old Sona had little incentive to work among her team outside of landing her ult.

This rework represents a massive increase in the amount of effort required to use her abilities "properly." I say this because it feels as though she was balanced around getting most, if not all, of her allies in her "snuggle zones." When I play her, I do not feel like I am rewarded for tagging people; I feel like this is the baseline and I am being punished when I can't get to my teammates. This is especially bad because Sona is touted as an easy, "entry-level" support.

Interested to see where you get that feeling. Break even point on Q for example is Sona using her proc. Any ally also using her proc is improved. Similar for W shield in terms of mitigation, though there is a higher awareness requirement.

EnvyDragon16 votes

Rather than continuously saying "You're wrong because this this this", can you at least acknowledge that yes, there is a problem with Sona's new implementation? HORDES of people are commenting that it feels clunky, and while there are lots of factually incorrect statements from players (especially re: math and so forth), it doesn't change the fact that there are significant problems with gamefeel and satisfaction that need to be addressed before she's in a good situation.

The biggest spot for this, in my opinion, is Sona's Q. It's the "use this to improve your team's offense" ability. Why is it that the only allies who benefit are autoattackers? And why does it only impact one attack when your team's main autoattackers - the ADC - do the vast majority of their damage from CONSISTENTLY autoattacking?

I understand that you've been busy, and you're in the midst of a crapload of damage control. I've seen your posts on the matter. I sympathize with you. But frankly, you are coming off as SUPER DEFENSIVE and not at all willing to accept that the players might have a different outlook than you.

RiotFearless3 votes

These are things we are working on right now, and looking to figure out where we get the most bang for the buck. As for why we empower a single auto attack per Q per ally, this is about creating windows to actually fight back against Sona. If Sona could give her ADC 5 seconds of auto attacks empowered that the current level, or anything close to it, it would be very hard to trade at all for the entire duration. Making it one attack gives Sona's enemies a chance to react her actions, which creates more choices for Sona on how to optimize the use. Old Sona Q should be cast on cooldown if there are targets and Sona has mana. Making that choice deeper gives us room to make her more powerful.

I'm totally open to other outlooks. Mostly try to understand the outlooks right now, and figure out what improvements we can make in communication and satisfaction that don't impact balance before we have enough data to make any conclusions about her power level or success rate.

5G8Nri0B547 votes

Make her Q also apply on ability damage as well? So if I'm, say...Maokai, and a Sona empowered me, my Sapling Toss will also inflict that bonus damage if I choose not to auto-attack?

XXnIE66Rui5 votes

I like this idea. It resonates with the old Q aura, and makes the buff remain useful even for pure skill users (no matter how minimal the damage increase is). As it is, the buff is completely useless for skill-based champions, and that's a shame.

Hellioning9 votes

The 'window to actually fight back against Sona' are 'levels 1-3, or, alternatively, whenever you can land a stun on her because she kinda explodes.'

At the moment, she's a rather complicated support to play as, given how difficult optimizing the use of her Q actually is, given that the optimal use in a laning situation is 'when the enemy cannot attack back, when both lane opponents are in range, when you are close enough to your ADC that you can buff them, when your ADC has the presence of mind to know to use their next auto on an enemy champ, when the ADC is missing no CS by autoing that enemy champ, when you will have enough mana to W and possibly ult afterwards'.

Compare that to, say, Leona E. 'When the enemy is in range and not under tower, when your ADC has the presence of mind to follow up, when the ADC is in position to auto up, when you aren't obscenely behind, when you will have enough mana to Q and W afterwards.' Some of this is learned behavior, as ADCs have had years to learn that 'go in when the Leona does' but have had less than a week to learn 'after the Sona hits Q, your next auto will do more damage, so hit the enemy champ with it.' On the other hand, Leona's E-Q combo will do so much more than a single Sona Q if the enemy follows up, and Leona's not really in much danger if she doesn't dive under tower or something.

3mptylord4 votes

You're going to have to go full-Nami on her Q. In fact, after Nami, I'm not sure how Sona's Q went live. Nami players complained for weeks about how invisible the empowered attack was to her carry, and you radically improved the visual effect, sounds and everything. Then Sona comes out with mildly blue hands - I was playing with my premade and it wasn't until I mentioned it 15 minutes in that he realized I was even giving him an on-hit effect during his duels.

It also needs to either only be trigger-able on champions and large minions/monsters, or you need to give the carry more than one (maybe 3?). Mainly because it seems to apply to in-progress attacks. I would use my Q to harass and then follow up with an auto, and by the second game with Sona my premade was attempting to also harass each time I Q'd - but half the time the on-hit effect would go on a minion that he was in the middle of attacking at the time.

RiotFearless2 votes

It should only be triggered by full attack, not a projectile in flight. I'll look into that to make sure that's still working as intended.

As to having more attacks, the amount of damage you'd get if the proc was spread across many hits is going to feel really weak, even if the impact is powerful. We had a model of Q that empowered multiple attacks, and the satisfaction and understanding was really low.

We're still gathering feedback on the particles. If we have any changes on those, it would likely be a little down the road.

ThatGuyFromTV3 votes

I had an idea in regards to giving teammates more empowered auto attacks: what if the empowered AAs could be shared? To clarify, if Sona tagged herself and 2 other allies with the aura, then the tagged allies would be able to use a combined 3 empowered autos. Aside from differing magic pen between teammates, this would allow the damage to be applied better without affecting the numbers too much, and it would help Sona since she could return to the center of her team sooner instead of having to chase to hit an AA to get the most out of the spell.

Neo Cyrus11 votes

So basically he came in and said "No because I say so" to every point made and threw out straw man arguments that no one is stupid enough to believe. Go figure.

What was the point of this? The champion is less viable, less fun, clunky as hell and nothing positive was gained. The only thing that occurred is that it's ensured to never be played in the LCS/OGN and that those who enjoy the character are going to be forced to quit it or just lose a lot more often. There's been a 4% drop in Sona's win rate EVERY DAY at high Elo since these nerfs.

The win rate is not going up as time passes, it's going down. It's not a mechanically intensive champion (now just clunky), there are no changes in build style, nothing new really as far as her skills go to adapt to, nothing to adjust to at all. There is no adjustment period, this is it, she's far less viable than the old Sona and far less enjoyable.

Good job guy who ignores everyone's opinions, you've ruined yet another unique champion and won't even admit your screw-up. Oh and I almost forgot, stop nerfing Sona's breasts as well. As if nerfing her kit to death wasn't enough.

Adrian Umbra7 votes

The two biggest issues I had with how the rework was handled have little to do with the gameplay end and (IMO) have yet to be addressed. I mean, as a longtime Sona player, I'm baffled as to why Riot decided that she should be squishier at level 1-3 and why they decreased her range and took away the resistances from her W without giving her some more significant durability buffs, but I'm not going to comment on that, as I haven't played the new version of Sona yet and Fearless is already working to address issues and argue his views. I'm not going to add to his workload.

My first gripe is the way you guys announced the rework being live. I've always hated the Knowledge base vague descriptions of abilities and the fact that this was pretty much all we got from the update news meant that I had to go to a third party site to get ANY solid numbers on this rework. Considering Riot's normal stance on being transparent and clear, this felt obscuring, as if this were a big nerf and y'all were trying to cover up the fact. An immediate (you guys have gotten pretty lazy with this) knowledge base update or laying out numbers CLEARLY in the patch notes could have easily fixed this issue. So why force people to leave your wonderful resources when you could put half the effort you put into making the Sona rework page porting the info to the current knowledge base or putting the numbers there for us geeks who want to read them and compare?

My second complaint is the speed at which Sona was rushed to live. She was in at least a decent spot, wasn't causing major gameplay issues, and had a pretty touchy gameplay rework which changed quite a bit. I'm quite familiar with project fatigue and the need to get something done quickly, but this was something where many members of the community had big issues with how the rework felt and how they felt it affected a character they cared deeply about. Furthermore, past projects like the Skarner and Xerath reworks took far longer on the PBE to get everything hammered out and (IMO) overall that ensured a better finished product. There was no rush, so why push the rework through a valuable beta opportunity so quickly?

Edit: It looks like she was actually on the PBE for longer than I thought, likely the lack of communication contributed to my confusion for this and as a non regular forumgoer, I missed the fact that these issues had already been addressed. My second complaint is invalid, best of luck to Fearless in future.

RiotFearless8 votes

I've posted on these topics a fair bit but happy to recap. The lack of numbers was a call that I made that was totally wrong. It was done to streamline the post.

Sona was on PBE for two patch cycles. That is longer than a lot of champs, who normally only have one patch cycle for changes. I've also admitted to not communicating enough when we heard feedback from the PBE and how we tested for it and where we went.

These were both on me, and I take responsibility for not handling them as well as you all deserve.

FatedTitan9 votes

You keep saying she was there longer (2 patch cycles) than normal. The big difference here is that the last time we had a rework like this, patches were coming once a month, not every 2 weeks. And the rework was on it the whole time, not taken down twice due to a new patch. So your belief that it was on longer is flawed. It was on for two patches instead of one, but time wise, it was on the PBE less than normal. Skarner and Rengar were on much longer.

Cuix3 votes

So what are you going to do about it? We've heard this before, and clearly there's a lesson that's either not being learned or not being shared properly. I'm not trying to be hostile here; I'm just concerned that these highly unpleasant situations are not leading to actual progress.

New Sona is here to stay, of course. Karma, Trundle, and Skarner weren't reverted post-backlash, so clearly any reworks/tune-ups are final once they roll off the PBE. I'm not a fan of this, but I'll work within the confines of the system. However, if the community cannot trust that meaningful dialogue will happen and cannot trust that decisions made to change a champion will adequately take into account that champion's fanbase, then what are we supposed to do? 'Cause just sitting back and waiting to see if we're gonna be crushed or elated is absolutely not optimal.

Gaston du Coteau9 votes

You didn't listen to ANY of the PBE feedback. I don't believe for a second you bothered to even consider anything we told you, because the consensus was pretty clear. We told you, STOP NERFING HER EVERY SINGLE PBE PATCH! We told you the 300 range is ridiculous, we told you it's not enjoyable, we told you her laning phase is absolutely decimated, we told you it's impossible to properly team fight with her at higher Elos. Not everyone is Silver and Bronze, this Sona does not work well even at Plat and it's a mess at Diamond.

But no, "This is what we want so we're going to do it!", and you did. Not satisfied until a character is gone and replaced with something the players don't want?

Maybe if the last several PBE patches were anything but direct nerfs her win rate wouldn't be decimated at high Elo. Then the focus could just be on fixing the clunkiness... such as her having to be glued to the ADC in order to do anything. But now, now you have a mess of numbers that need buffing (but you won't because you're too stubborn to stop and realize the feedback was correct) because you decided to lower everything.

What's mind boggling is how much her early game has been destroyed, as if being forced into 300 range of the ADC wasn't dangerous enough for one of the squishiest champions in the game.

There is literally zero reason to pick Sona over another support. There is nothing that Sona does that other supports don't do better, and importantly, a LOT safer and easier than Sona can. Did that even occur to anyone working on this? Anything you could possibly say Sona does another champion does much better while being safer.

Sona was fine, she didn't need any changes, she was not an LCS pick but was viable in solo queue. Now she's neither unless you have a deep desire to be a punching bag in lane then 100-0'd every team fight without being able to contribute anything.

I've looked up every person who didn't have a problem with these changes, no surprise literally every single one was super low bottom-of-the-barrel Elo where champions make literally zero difference.

XXnIE66Rui2 votes

Tiny correction: the auras have 350 range (that's the one thing that was buffed during her PBE stay).

DreamingOf Peace4 votes

As hostile as I am to these changes I will also agree that I think your thought process behind this rework was good. Turning the auras into zones was a good idea but then you should have buffed Sona's armor and health if you want her to be in the front line especially since Sona is forced to build CDR/AP now instead of tanky if you want these auras to be impactful. The reason her base stats are so low was because one upon a time her W used to give 20 armor and 20 mres and then the heal added another 20/20 even more, additionally **Aegis and Runic bulwark **added even more and she always took those. So now that the game has changed so much since then, including Sona herself and those items, why are Sona's base armor and health so low? Why did you further reduce her base health while at the same time slightly buffing her base armor? I am completely baffled and confused. There is a lack of consistency here.

If you don't want her to be in the front line then you should have the radius of her zones scale larger into late game.

RiotFearless3 votes

We did also increase the health per level for these reasons. That plus the base armor buff were to account for her no longer giving herself stats, but the fact that she has such frequent access to a shield limits how much base stats she needs to balance out the stat based squish factor.

Hellioning15 votes

She has 'such frequent access' to a 40+.2ap shield on a 10 sec cooldown that eats up her mana. You also decided to make her squishier from levels 1-3. That's the most baffling part of this for me. Again, you don't balance to the meta, but this meta is defined by level 2 all ins in bot lane. She's now even WORSE at those, and she was never great at them anyway. Why should I pick her in blind pick or teambuilder when a Leona or Braum on the other team makes my job incredibly difficult in bot lane?

ModUlanopo9 votes

I'm still at a loss to understand what was so oppressive about her 1-3 play that required explicit nerfs. I mean, just look at the passive on the ult. That just screams, "We're worried about her early-game power."

Hellioning4 votes

Originally, she was nerfed because she used to be incredibly domating as a support due to her poke and sustain meaning that she basically always had such a health advantage over you that you could barely farm. I severely doubt that's what would currently happen in this environment, given how squishy she is, but Riot is wary of going back to old style 'Q plus powerchord equals half your health'.

ModUlanopo4 votes

Yeah, but wasn't she originally developed as an anti/counterpoke champion where the counter-play was to go all-in? It feels like the meta response not only exists, but is incredibly robust.

Hellioning6 votes

Nowadays, it is, which is why I said that their fear that Sona would become overly dominating is probably unfounded, especially with those base stats. Back then, engage was much harder to do so, since Leona/Thresh/Braum didn't exist yet.

Flemman1 votes

I'm still at a loss to understand what was so oppressive about her 1-3 play that required explicit nerfs. I mean, just look at the passive on the ult. That just screams, "We're worried about her early-game power."

I think they do that to not make the 5 man invade level 1 to powerfull

Cuix1 votes

Very possibly. However, would teamcomps built to exploit Sona's level 1 power be too toxic? I think it could be a fun thing to see, and completely counterable.

Pika3102 votes

Too toxic or not remains to be seen, since it's still a completely viable invasion strategy. Rank 1 of Hymn of Valor is the only rank that outdamages the old version, which may make Sona incredibly powerful for start-of-game invades and level 1 team-fights. In complete comparison, Hymn loses power with each additional rank taken in it, which seems counter-intuitive to the fact that it has the shortest CD of her abilities and the rest of her kit is focused on late-game power.

Phoenix Kotori 4 votes

Any chance you'd consider making the shield last just a little longer, lux's team wide shield lasts potentially up 6 seconds, sona's 1.5 second shield felt too short when I played her considering the positional requirements of it, say it give 2-2.5 seconds duration?

ModUlanopo2 votes

A lot of people suggest this. There is one strong argument against it, however. At 40% CDR, which is practically a requirement now, that leaves only six seconds between shields. If you lengthen the duration, you run the risk of her basically having 70-80% shield uptime. If she gets ahead, this would be really oppressive. It's already possible to get three shields off on your team in a fight.

Phoenix Kotori 5 votes

Lux has a higher uptime on her shield at 40% CDR by a wide margin and no one calls it oppressive.

ModUlanopo2 votes

It also doesn't do anything but shield and is more complicated to apply. For all that tagging people with "snuggle zones" can feel like a pain, watching people dodge the wand hurts my soul.

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