Stashu, if detailed explanations aren't working. Here's a VISUAL explanation for Cassiopeia's issues

5G8Nri0B54··46 votes·14,913 views

I tried using detailed points. From the very beginning since the GD thread, yet it does feel like even if read, many of my points comes off as cryptic or undecipherable perhaps. After all this revision...she's still a hyper-carry, she's still single-target and primarily direct damage. She's still focused entirely on her E. She's still primarily an all-in AP Rambo for literally no reason just because this rework is focused entirely on her E.

So here's a visual TL;DR starring the guy with the messed up jaw. THIS is why her E doesn't fit her. THIS is why you should not make her rely on her E!

http://i.imgur.com/bkf398P.jpg http://i.imgur.com/hLgqnSM.jpg

If THIS doesn't get the idea across, I don't know WHAT will!

116 Comments

RiotRiot Stashu21 votes

Hey Ginga. I've been reading your posts since the GD thread, sorry for not always responding directly.

...she's still a hyper-carry, she's still single-target and primarily direct damage.

Our changes slotted for 4.21 are aimed precisely at these.

Hyper carry: They flatten scaling ratios/utility and weight them considerably towards the early game. Further, the changes strictly add power to her at all stages of the game (including the early game) with the E debuff. Again, these changes don't reverse her power curve, but they significantly flatten it.

Single target: Okay, 4.21 doesn't really address the single target concerns, so, maybe it's not aimed at all of your concerns. True.

Direct damage: The changes do, however, undeniably get at the direct damage concern. The changes lower Twin Fang's best case damage (late game ratio down) and add some indirect damage (poison amp). The indirect damage amp depends on hitting E, yes, but, at the end of the day, that's solely a buff to her indirect damage.

We're not done looking into Cassiopeia, and I know these changes won't entirely fix the problems you have, but I do want to point out that we share at least some of your concerns, and I think it's clear that we're in the process of addressing them.

As for

She's still primarily an all-in AP Rambo for literally no reason just because this rework is focused entirely on her E.

Cassiopeia has always had two combat ranges (Q/W range and E/R range). Q/W are long range, and E/R are medium range-- I don't mean to be super controversial here, but E/R have never been 'Rambo' range. It's true that they put you at much more risk than the Q/W ranges, yes, and the update makes this her primary combat range, but 700 range is simply not Rambo range (is Ashe rambo range?), so I think that's a little unfair.

In recent versions, Cassiopeia functions most effectively at mid range, towing a very delicate line. Yes it's true that a mid range character is going to have lower range than most mages, since most mages are long range (or ther're assassins, in which case I'm not sure I'd classify them as mages in the first place), but that hardly makes them Rambo =/. I do, however, love the photoshops :p


Anyway, don't have much time to talk right now, sorry, but I just wanted to chime in really quick. We share your concerns, we've worked on them, we're still working on them, and 4.21 will not be the last patch in which we keep a close eye on Cassiopeia .

Cheers!

Stez00719 votes

Yes it's true that a mid range character is going to have lower range than most mages

Which means that, since she is primarily facing other mages in lane, she is in Rambo range. She has to get in range of all of her opponent's skills just to farm with E, which she is forced to do since Q/W can't farm on their own. That's Rambo range. She isn't facing Ashe in lane, she isn't facing Rammus or Olaf or Sivir. She's facing mages.

Against Assassins she has no defense other than R, which is on a delay. Everything else is too slow. Q and W are not threatening enough to keep assassins at bay. and comboing them with E is too slow to match their damage. Being in lane at all against an assassin is being in rambo range.

How is that not clear?

Edit: Also, are you seriously using her average skill range as the basis for your argument? You seriously have no idea how design works. At all. Her E range is her range. She is not effective without E therefore her range is E's range. E's range is shit, therefore her range is shit. If Q/W were actually effective on their own then her range would be Q/W range, with occasional dips to E range. Average range is not how effective range works. Average range has never been a metric to determine effective range, for anything. What are you smoking?

RiotRiot King Cobra9 votes

She never has had a problem in the past farming in lane against other mages and even with the nerfs to Q it can still clear waves quite easily if you max it. With the amp changes you can most definitely get away with maxing Q now.

In regards to assassins, Cass destroys them if she takes Exhaust. Her Twin Fang damage is absolutely insane at all levels of play and will be even more so once the buffs go through to provide a flat .55 ratio.

Stez00715 votes

Q cannot clear waves even if you max it. Not on its own.

Exhaust does not save you at all against assassins. They will out-damage you through exhaust or they will wait out the exhaust while you deal negligible damage. Are you basing this on math or actual experience facing assassins? Go try it and see how well you do. Hint: you'll be miserable and wishing the game would end quickly.

RiotRiot King Cobra8 votes

It clears waves perfectly fine. The base damage didn't change from pre-rework Cass and since like 80% of Cass mains rushed a Haunting Guise or Tear, they weren't making using of the .8 ratio to waveclear anyways early/mid game so really, there isn't much difference at all. On live right now, you can't get away with maxing Q because E's damage in the early levels is total garbage. With the amplification factor going live, Q max will be viable because that amplification will significantly increase her damage in short trades.

In regards to assassins, I speak out of personal experience playing against Master/Challenger tier mid/top laners including a lot of one-trick pony assassin players. Cassio's damage is NOT negligible early game. She out-damages the old Cass at every point in the game if she is kiting properly if you are maxing Twin Fang. If you have 2 Doran's and a Catalyst no assassin is going to be able to kill you in a full combo and you will either blow their summoners or straight up kill them in retaliation. She's actually a better pick into assassins than most mages because of her insane ability to duel and once she gets 75 stacks she can also sustain in those fights as well.

Additionally, because assassins basically have to build glass cannon to stay relevant late game, Cass winds up killing them in like 3 Twin Fang casts as she starts taking off.

Zirzon3 votes

Thank you for responding reasonably and from experience to this type of complaint. So, seeing as you play Cass often, what is your opinion of the overall rework? I know it's not yet finished, but how do you think it compares to old Cass? I simply want to hear your opinion because you seem informed and logical (and highly skilled, according to your rank).

RiotRiot King Cobra4 votes

I think the rework takes Cass in the right direction towards viability while retaining familiar gameplay patterns etc etc. Is it there yet? Probably not, she is definitely a tiny bit undertuned on live. However, I feel like a lot of the problems are going to solved by the set of buffs that are going through. Issues that I expect to be resolved are: Q feeling a bit clunky due to the high delay, being able to max Q if necessary, and smoothing out her very rough early game.

Compared to old Cass, I think with the coming buffs she will be a much more reliable carry. The Twin Fang reset is much more generous and her Q will be easier to hit. Additionally, she can get her full DPS out at max range. There is no arguing that old Cass had a stronger early/mid game simply due to ratios and her passive, however I think the reworked Cassio is MUCH more potent once you have your first/second item.

I will say this. There is one thing that I dislike a lot about the rework and that is upping the Q CD to 4 seconds. I REALLY dislike the fact that she can't seamlessly string Qs together. I think it is one of the most satisfying and core parts of Cass being Cass and by preventing her from doing so until she hits 200 stacks, you make her feel very unsatisfying until that point.

To clarify, one of the biggest complaints about the passive is how it feels like shackles. I think the 25% CDR is a large contributor to this because once you get it, you FEEL like old Cass again with the 3 second CD on Q.

That'd be the only change I'd make - revert the nerf to the Q cooldown, give her ult scaling CD with rank, lower Miasma CD with rank, and then put something exciting in place of the 25% CDR. I don't know what could go there that wouln't require her to suffer elsewhere for the sake of balance, but it would be cool if it was something appreciable like the sustain you get on Twin Fang.

Stez0075 votes

At my level (Gold), assassins play extremely aggressively. They tend to be in my face more often than not, and take what might be considered balls-deep risks to get early kills. Even with a fast Catalyst I've been struggling to survive against most assassins that play this way (and the ones that don't tend to be weaker players) thanks to needing to Q and hit several Es to match their trades, which are usually a lot faster and hit a lot harder early. It's slightly better on PBE, but not nearly enough to make me comfortable playing Cass against an assassin.

As for the rework overall, she's too E-focused. The passive is still junk, though, but if it must stay then how about this:

Screw the CDR. Replace it with Deadly Cadence on rank 2. By that point in the game, she needs mana for teamfighting rather than laning anyway, it's not hidden power (it's a clearly-visible buff), it restores some of the fun of old Cass and it wouldn't feel nearly as shackling. Fuck the AP bonus, though. That needs to go back into her kit. Or, failing that, have some added effect that would provide that value through gameplay rather than pure stats (rank 3: more spam=more damage? deadly cadence adds %damage per stack?)

WereScrib7 votes

As much as I dislike this rework, you're absolutely right. Honestly, my early game wasn't effected heavily (very early game) as I did rush pure spell pen and tankiness and focused on Q. The only issue was how absolute mana hungry new Cass is and how E had to be utilized for last hits.

I dislike the New Cassio because its thematically unpleasant to play and doesn't have much of what I liked about the old Cassio as a champion. Her design feels unappealing and her identity feels stripped away to nothing.

I'm going to agree though about her having an easier time on assassins. Honestly my issues with her aren't fighting assassins, its other mages. She's kind of like Anivia in that respect. Anivia can royally shit on numerous assassins as she has her damage linked to a point and click chunk of death and CC that becomes more dangerous and more reliable the closer they are to you. (Course I'm at a way different tier of play, obviousy)

Kowe The Ewok2 votes

You are right. But you should refrain from these provocation. Even though you raised very valid points, you'll most likely get ignored because of how you did it.

LordOfTheLeague7 votes

I'd like to say that cassiopeia E range is the same as varus auto attack range aka 575. Thing is he is not considered viable because his lack of escape, so I dunno why you create a new varus with magic damage when varus isn't viable.

IndyBoy9 votes

Varus > new Cass He has better self peel, better early game damage and long range poke, as well as percent max health damage.

Resiakedrøm2 votes

Are you seriously trying to tell us that because Cassiopeia's E range is the same as varus auto attack range they were trying to make a magic damage version of varus?

IndyBoy6 votes

If anything shes an AP version of Urgot.

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

There are not champs that are really the same. What I'm saying is that she has more or less the same pros and cons than varus for most of the game. Immobile medium range dps champ with self peel tied to their ultimate. I'm pretty sure you can see that. Now my point is that if the first is not viable what did they do to make the second viable ?

IndyBoy1 votes

Except Varus is viable, hes just not played in competitive. But that doesn't mean he's not a good champ, in fact I would go so far to say that Varus is the gold standard of balance and what other adc's should be balanced to. Hes got reasonable range, good poke, and amazing ultimate that is better at peeling than Cass's ult, and low mobility. Cass has issues that are completely different than those of Varus. Its really not a good comparison to be honest.

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

I was pretty sure viable meant that the champ is played in competition. Still he is far from the champ you want in your team compared to most marksmen.

IndyBoy2 votes

Viable implies they are AT LEAST average, not underpowered. I personally am never upset to have a Varus on my team, especially a Varus who knows what he's doing. He actually has some fairly decent matchups, decent damage, strong early/mid game, and average late game. The point being Varus is a balanced champion, nothing super special about him but in the same sense nothing is super wrong with him. He's in an alright spot atm.... unlike Cassiopeia, who has a ton of things wrong with her.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

I'd say Varus is very very...average. He can be strong in the sense that anyone whose mastered a champion can be strong with him/her.

With that said, I have a feeling I know why he is so unpopular.

A lot about him just feels so...unpleasant.

  1. His movement and attack feel so much slower than they actually are when in truth he's actually quite average

  2. His passive, while statistically strong feels too restrictive for most players, and despite being quite strong, doesn't feel all that strong.

  3. His R is extremely powerful for an ADC. Unfortunately it also wins the prize for having the greatest "difficult to appreciate to actually being powerful"-ratio in the entire game. It's genuinely powerful, too bad you can never really feel it. Worse is your team, pull off a perfect R and your team still doesn't know whether to begin fighting or not.

In short. He's a decent ADC. But boy is he lacking in the feels and appreciability. His odd looking arrows don't really have the same visual oomph as Ashe's frost arrows as well.

Thryale16 votes

Actually, yes, I do consider Ashe to be Rambo range.

The game has changed stashu. one of the main reasons you don't see Ashe as a common pick is because of her short range and lack of escape. her dmg output is low compared to her peers, and her ult is poorly leveraged in solo q play (compared to ranked teams)

But the biggest issue isn't her range, it's the engage range of her opponents. the vast majority of the champion roster can engage on ashe(and likewise cass) outside of her own range. whether that is ranged poke, all in dives, or simply having more as range; Ashe has to get inside her opponents threat range before she can do her dmg.

And that is what we mean by Rambo: to go inside an enemy's threat/danger range to deal dmg.

this is regardless of whether it was necessary or not.

Cuix16 votes

Hyper carry: They flatten scaling ratios/utility and weight them considerably towards the early game. Further, the changes strictly add power to her at all stages of the game (including the early game) with the E debuff. Again, these changes don't reverse her power curve, but they significantly flatten it.

This seems fine. I'm glad that her power curve will be less crippling.

Single target: Okay, 4.21 doesn't really address the single target concerns, so, maybe it's not aimed at all of your concerns. True.

This is maybe not a big issue. At least, to me it's not a primary problem. So long as she's a venom mage, AoE v. Single-target doesn't necessarily matter, imo.

Direct damage: The changes do, however, undeniably get at the direct damage concern. The changes lower Twin Fang's best case damage (late game ratio down) and add some indirect damage (poison amp). The indirect damage amp depends on hitting E, yes, but, at the end of the day, that's solely a buff to her indirect damage.

Ah, yes, keeping all the power on her E. That skill which was the least interesting before, and remains uninteresting. I don't know what we can do to make this clear. Seriously, what's your deal here? Why do you NEED all of her power to be on E? We've asked you over and over again, for months now, to stop doing that, but you just push it further every time. It's horrifying.

We're not done looking into Cassiopeia, and I know these changes won't entirely fix the problems you have, but I do want to point out that we share at least some of your concerns, and I think it's clear that we're in the process of addressing them.

It's not clear at all. We told you we wanted a subtle and manipulative venom mage, you made her a skirmishing short-range machine gun hypercarry. We told you her E was unsatisfying, you made it the focus of her kit. We told you that her new passive is hobbling, you gave it minor tweaks and decided it was a fine idea. We told you that your rework needed more significant changes, and you just tossed on some buffs.

What is your angle here? Why aren't you making changes? As another person who comes into these threads time after time without any response, this is just brutal. You're truly, deeply, honesty not listening. You say you are, but we aren't seeing it. THAT is clear.

Cassiopeia has always had two combat ranges (Q/W range and E/R range). Q/W are long range, and E/R are medium range-- I don't mean to be super controversial here, but E/R have never been 'Rambo' range. It's true that they put you at much more risk than the Q/W ranges, yes, and the update makes this her primary combat range, but 700 range is simply not Rambo range (is Ashe rambo range?), so I think that's a little unfair.

Except you need to land several Es before seeing any real damage, and with mobility being so high that range isn't even remotely safe. Besides, she's fighting champs like Yasuo and Syndra, not Vayne and Trist. Big difference. Also, she no longer has two fighting ranges; she ONLY has short range now.

Anyway, don't have much time to talk right now

Why am I not surprised?

We share your concerns, we've worked on them, we're still working on them

You don't, you haven't, and you sure as hell don't seem to be.

IndyBoy12 votes

Just want to state that her range is too short for mid lane anymore, she is outranged and/or outdamaged by so many other mages that its ridiculous. Against bursty mages she outranges she gets one shot and against long range mages she is both outdamaged and many of them have better peel or mobility. Not even mentioning assassins because there's so many and they all destroy her in lane now. She still offers nothing to early and mid game team fights and late game her range is too short and her damage is way too inconsistent. Not to even mention her lack of mobility or build options, her lack of a passive until late game, or her complete change from an AOE mage to a single target mage(which isn't something necessarily positive or negative but is something I truly disapprove of.) I can never imagine Cass ever getting chosen by a high ranking LCS player over all the other mages available for a real game. It will never happen. Not unless you buff her to the point of being literally broken, or remove this artificial gate of a passive that in all honesty(even though you said it isn't) is nothing more than a locked gate to make up for lowered AP ratios on her abilities. Please Stashu, check some of my other post :( I've written out well thought out explanations for every aspect of new Cass and why it doesn't work and I've never got a single response. I've been writing since Cass was on PBE, and I've left a ton of post all together and its really frustrating every week never getting even a single response. Specifically this one in particular.vvvvv http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ygxuK4gR-quick-cassiopeia-update-re-pbe-and-421?comment=0022

Sir Tiddles17 votes

Our changes slotted for 4.21 are aimed precisely at these.

Hyper carry: They flatten scaling ratios/utility and weight them considerably towards the early game. Further, the changes strictly add power to her at all stages of the game (including the early game) with the E debuff. Again, these changes don't reverse her power curve, but they significantly flatten it.

Even with these changes, her power curve is still the inverse of what she has been for years. You really need to stop pretending that having a weaker early game and stronger late game is anything but a huge deviation from what Cass has always been.

Single target: Okay, 4.21 doesn't really address the single target concerns, so, maybe it's not aimed at all of your concerns. True.

Thanks for at least admitting you aren't doing anything to move her back into the AoE powerhouse she has always been until the rework.

Direct damage: The changes do, however, undeniably get at the direct damage concern. The changes lower Twin Fang's best case damage (late game ratio down) and add some indirect damage (poison amp). The indirect damage amp depends on hitting E, yes, but, at the end of the day, that's solely a buff to her indirect damage.

When people say direct vs indirect damage, they don't really mean the poison debuff ticking away -- they mean the power of Q and W without landing E. Shifting power into the poison amp is not increasing the power of Q or W, it is just a different way of cramming power into E. I will give you that it does something for the theme of poison, but it does absolutely nothing to address the deleted gameplay Cass used to have when she had meaningful Q and W spells.

We're not done looking into Cassiopeia, and I know these changes won't entirely fix the problems you have, but I do want to point out that we share at least some of your concerns, and I think it's clear that we're in the process of addressing them.

You aren't addressing our concerns. Absolutely nothing has changed with the 4.21 changes. She is still the inverse of what she has been for years, she is the inverse of the reason I played Cass and spent my real world money on her. She is still single target, still late game instead of early game, still only has one meaningful spell outside of the ult, still only has one valid play pattern of go rambo all-in, and she most certainly hasn't regained any of her fun tempo from Deadly Cadence or feeling of a poisoner who is in control and wants to keep her distance until she manipulates the situation into her favor.

To me, her biggest fantasy/thematic elements translated into actual gameplay is the dichotomy of Cass' former life as a cunning/deceptive/manipulative courtesan and her new form of a monster that can't wait to strike hard and fast and RIGHT NOW. The play pattern of skirmishing with Q and W being powerful spells in their own right represented Cass' ironclad will holding back the inner monster to keep everything in control and manipulated into her favor as a remnant of her old life, and the "turn and burn" hitting R and spamming E represented her finally giving in to her new bestial nature. Both playstyles were satisfying and valid, but the truly satisfying plays were always the ones where both playstyles/natures were utilized.

Post-rework, she only has one play pattern -- that of a magic damage "autoattacker". Completely ignoring balancing, numbers, inverting everything about Cass' strengths and weaknesses, or fundamental reasons why Cass' kit is not ideal for a mage "autoattacker", this total loss of all choice in play pattern is why I absolutely disdain this rework.

Cassiopeia has always had two combat ranges (Q/W range and E/R range). Q/W are long range, and E/R are medium range-- I don't mean to be super controversial here, but E/R have never been 'Rambo' range. It's true that they put you at much more risk than the Q/W ranges, yes, and the update makes this her primary combat range, but 700 range is simply not Rambo range (is Ashe rambo range?), so I think that's a little unfair.

It is true that Cass' E is longer range than Ashe's autoattack. But Cass isn't going against Ashe in lane. She is going against other mages, or one of the many champs in league-of-dashes-and-burst-damage.

In recent versions, Cassiopeia functions most effectively at mid range, towing a very delicate line. Yes it's true that a mid range character is going to have lower range than most mages, since most mages are long range (or ther're assassins, in which case I'm not sure I'd classify them as mages in the first place), but that hardly makes them Rambo =/.

A great deal of common mages have equal or greater range than Cass' Q as it was. This made mid lane interesting for Q maxing because it basically came down to who lands skill shots more often, and dropping Q and W did not require/enable enemy to force an all-in engagement. Since she will always lose the poke war now with the meaningless damage Q and W now provide, her only choice is to close to E distance. But SURPRISE, every single mage in the world will be able to CC and splat Cass before she lands more than an E or two.

A similar scenario happens against assassins in that her Q and W used to give her an option in how to deal with these champs as they are long enough range that she can farm and poke without getting caught by a dash or CC. If you landed a few Qs and got a timely W off, you could whittle them down enough that you could risk an all-in. But now that she has no damage in Q or W (I have legitimately seen people stand in Miasma for the full duration and passive health regen + a last hit or two + lifesteal kept them full health), she can never whittle down the assassins enough to where she can risk an all-in. This problem is exacerbated since her initial release with the addition of so many champs with insane mobility.

Additionally, she previously felt good hitting a timely hourglass, because her poisons were still chunking the enemy for meaningful amounts. This let you outplay the Panth that would otherwise splat you because you could Q him as he approaches, drop a W on yourself, and hourglass as soon as his stun wears off. Then when hourglass comes off pop your ult and go ham with QW+E spam. If you timed and aimed everything right, you were rewarded for outsmarting your enemy. But now that all damage comes from E, it isn't a valid play pattern anymore to do this. Q and W don't chunk them enough while you are hourglassing, so you are now the one getting splatted even in your best case play.

5G8Nri0B549 votes

Well atleast you saw this. I'll just start off by again re-iterating that nobody hates you or want you to resign in the forums. Many just...aren't a fan of the rework.

  1. I'm going to have to point out that even if you're forcing her to be an AP Marksmen, it's probably best not to compare her to other ADC's since despite the attempt to make her one, she's still inherently different. She doesn't get babysat like ADC's do by a role specializing exclusively on babysitting them. She lanes against other AP mids/Assassins who are often far more deadly than most early game ADC's (Lucian and maybe MF are occasional exceptions). In the end, for a mage, she is working far too hard trying to stick to her opponent to spam those streams of torso-sized fangs. And the cherry on top? The idea of a marksmen REALLY doesn't suit her anyways Rambo or not.*** I want you to look at the aesthetics of Marksmens or champions who all-ins like crazy in general and compare them with Cassiopeia***

  2. There's still the irony that such an all-in playstyle is given to one with a Poison-theme going on. It's true that you made her E amplify poison now, but you're obviously not just going to be done with 2 E's in late game, especially when jumped upon. In a sense, a Poison mage should be just as or even more vulnerable than your average poke mage when engaged upon, but make up for it by being...really toxic.

I want to make it clear. I don't mind there being a mage with this play-style. It's just that...on Cassiopeia? Hell I'd argue Azir is a pretty sweet attempt. Ironic how he came immediately after this rework as though to compare himself with her.

Anyways, the key point.

Her E is far too much of a thing. And it's style, even with the amplification, is too contradictory to someone like Cassiopeia. Sure she's had her E pre-rework, but back then it's something you can ignore and have fun playing her more like a Poison Mage.

PS - SCREW YOU AUTO-FORMATTING! Stop giving me TWO #1's!

Sir Tiddles2 votes

Well atleast you saw this. I'll just start off by again re-iterating that nobody hates you or want you to resign in the forums. Many just...aren't a fan of the rework.

  1. I'm going to have to point out that even if you're forcing her to be an AP Marksmen, it's probably best not to compare her to other ADC's since despite the attempt to make her one, she's still inherently different. She doesn't get babysat like ADC's do by a role specializing exclusively on babysitting them. She lanes against other AP mids/Assassins who are often far more deadly than most early game ADC's (Lucian and maybe MF are occasional exceptions). In the end, for a mage, she is working far too hard trying to stick to her opponent to spam those streams of torso-sized fangs. And the cherry on top? The idea of a marksmen REALLY doesn't suit her anyways Rambo or not.*** I want you to look at the aesthetics of Marksmens or champions who all-ins like crazy in general and compare them with Cassiopeia***

  2. There's still the irony that such an all-in playstyle is given to one with a Poison-theme going on. It's true that you made her E amplify poison now, but you're obviously not just going to be done with 2 E's in late game, especially when jumped upon. In a sense, a Poison mage should be just as or even more vulnerable than your average poke mage when engaged upon, but make up for it by being...really toxic.

I want to make it clear. I don't mind there being a mage with this play-style. It's just that...on Cassiopeia? Hell I'd argue Azir is a pretty sweet attempt. Ironic how he came immediately after this rework as though to compare himself with her.

Anyways, the key point.

Her E is far too much of a thing. And it's style, even with the amplification, is too contradictory to someone like Cassiopeia. Sure she's had her E pre-rework, but back then it's something you can ignore and have fun playing her more like a Poison Mage.

Everything about this!

PS - SCREW YOU AUTO-FORMATTING! Stop giving me TWO #1's!

And also this :-P

Kowe The Ewok10 votes

The E amplification again goes into the wrong direction. Cass is the only champion (Azir aside) who can't use 3 abilities of her kit without the 4th one.

Q, W and R alone have close to zero impact on their own - and even when used together!

The current design is horribly unrewarding. Especially since it reduces her range to 700 which is horribble for a mage and close to lane-loss-by-default.

If you added the ampflification also to W and R it MIGHT slightly improve the gaming experience.

Q, W and R would however still feel worthless on their own.

Please also look into the scaling of R. Just compare it to Tibbers who has no delay, a secure stun, a longer range 0.8 impact scaling and further 0.2 AoE scaling PER SECOND.

Cassiopei's ultimate

Abyssphere5 votes

Please also look into the scaling of R. Just compare it to Tibbers who has no delay, a secure stun, a longer range 0.8 impact scaling and further 0.2 AoE scaling PER SECOND.

Cassiopei's ultimate

Agreed. The scaling on her R is pathetic considering the low base damage and the fact that it has so much counterplay in comparison to others. I tend to forget it actually does any damage to anyone, it's essentially just "use this and safely get off a few more Twin Fangs without taking damage" when it goes right. A cool ultimate in terms of theme, and the visuals/audio are so cool, but the sheer lack of impact is so underwhelming. You turn someone to stone and all that happens is you get to bite them a few more times. Obviously you'd use the stun timeframe to E in the past too but at least you felt like the R was contributing to the damage, not just buying you time.

Wullf12 votes

i am growing tired of these "Cass sucks" and "Lets kick stashu's ass" posts.

Tapu Fini42 votes

I'm growing tired of Cassiopeia remaining in the same crappy state, with no changes regarding what's actually hated about her new kit.

Revika2 votes

Completely agreed, I miss how she was pre-rework.

AetherKingdom2 votes

Reworks aren't made to suit you. Get over it

yellowbricks12 votes

Reworks aren't made to suit you. Get over it

Hi, yeah, some of us paid actual real life money for this champ and her skins, and if riot wants us to keep spending money on these nebulous pixels, then they should be listening and get rid of the awful passive on Cass and try again. I sure as hell won't continue supporting a company that can just randomly decide my favorite champ is now a boring stack based mage with none of the benefits and confidently walk away saying "yep we done good today, Bill".

AetherKingdom1 votes

No one gives a fuck about your money. No one gives a shit about your opinion. The rework didn't happen to suit you. It's happened to others, and it's happening to you. Quit if you feel so strongly about it.

yellowbricks11 votes

No one gives a fuck about your money. No one gives a shit about your opinion. The rework didn't happen to suit you. It's happened to others, and it's happening to you. Quit if you feel so strongly about it.

Ah, it's the sad state of the video game industry. No one actually cares, just keep buying those skins yo, never mind if they change the models to look like Runescape characters circa 2004, it's all good. Kids will eat this shit up, even if you delete a champ they like, they'll just move to a fotm champ and continue to perpetuate this terrible game.

I basically quit. I only play once in a while with friends who can't seem to quit this game themselves and basically just fuck around (maybe I should get Stashu on their favorite champ, then we can play some better video games).

But yes, I should probably stop responding to trolls now, it's not good for one's health!

Tapu Fini8 votes

And who exactly is the rework suiting? Her pick rate is abysmal. I've seen maybe five people that actually support the rework. And it's not even all about pick rates and viability, it's about how horrible her passive feels, and how reliant she is on the one spell in her kit that doesn't really fit with what the majority of the playerbase wants from her: DoTs.

Believe it or not, I don't mind reworks. I mind this one, because it's a botched job.

AetherKingdom2 votes

It suits game health.

Tapu Fini6 votes

I'm sure there's ways to make playing her not suck, without being gamebreakingly toxic. Not that many people even feel she was.

chumbler3 votes

I'm sure there's ways to make playing her not suck, without being gamebreakingly toxic. Not that many people even feel she was.

Like, for example, reverting the rework.

AetherKingdom3 votes

Yes and they're still tweaking her. You guys act like they are just like "lol we're done". No, changes are still coming to the PBE. You guys post the exact same thread 20 times a day completely ignorant to the fact that patches only happen every two weeks. They aren't going to change that for Cass.

chumbler10 votes

Yes and they're still tweaking her. You guys act like they are just like "lol we're done". No, changes are still coming to the PBE. You guys post the exact same thread 20 times a day completely ignorant to the fact that patches only happen every two weeks. They aren't going to change that for Cass.

Considering they keep pushing this piece of shit rework, yeah they are pretty much just like "lol we're done".

Tapu Fini7 votes

I've tried the changes. They don't address the issues with her kit, and in fact make her passive feel even worse.

It's been three months since her rework launched. That's a lot of time wasted moving backward. Apparently 20 threads a day isn't enough, maybe we should bump it up to 40.

AetherKingdom1 votes

Once again, just because a majority of the player base doesn't like it doesn't mean it's a bad change.

chumbler10 votes

Once again, just because a majority of the player base doesn't like it doesn't mean it's a bad change.

No, but being a bad change means it's a bad change.

5G8Nri0B5415 votes

If you bothered reading, you'd know that her sucking isn't the problem...it's compounding it for sure, but it's hardly the biggest concern.

Wullf2 votes

Snother thing I am growing tired of is getting insulted whenever I say somting on boards.

yellowbricks10 votes

Snother thing I am growing tired of is getting insulted whenever I say somting on boards.

Well, if you shit post on how you're growing tired of hearing legitimate complaints, you're going to get the business from everyone who does care. It's so simple to not read these topics and just refrain from posting if you have nothing to add.

Wullf6 votes

I do care. But I am patient.

It just gets to me when browsing boards and seeing Cass post every week when Riot is working on her.

But valid point. I will not comment anymore in this kind of manner. I am sorry.

Mathbalnase6 votes

I do care. But I am patient.

It just gets to me when browsing boards and seeing Cass post every week when Riot is working on her.

But valid point. I will not comment anymore in this kind of manner. I am sorry.

We know they're working on her. However, the work they're doing is not taking a direction that will actually solve the problems the community has been trying to point out since this rework first hit the PBE.

Onegarion8 votes

I'm not a cass player, but I've followed whats going on a good extent. Honestly it comes down to them completely changing cass. ON top of that Stashu left the cass community in the dark for a very long time before he said anything and when he did finally open his mouth and engage them it showed a detachment from the champion cass.

He had described ANY damage that isn't burst damage as DoT. This included abilities that many would describe as sustained damage. It was a clear lack of understanding from stashu himself of what DoT really means. I can't find the post atm, but it just shows a major detachment. It shows he doesn't know why he is taking the direction he is or where to take it.

At this point in time it would be better for them to just reverted cass completely. Then take steps based off the old cass to improve her.

Personally I think the new cass's passive is a huge problem. It attempts to make her a late game monster when previously I would argue that early game was where she shined. WIth this transition the abilities themselves are more lenient if we fixed the passive to start. I think personally Cass should be that early game bully that scales ok into late game with a focus on AOE damage. Which to me means making her the opposite of what she is right now. I think we have a lot of better options for a late gmae scaling mage if we wanted and cass's kit just fights that late game hyperscaling stashu wants.

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