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Riven's ani-cancel changes and Renek's/Graves' cancel removals are 100% UNRELATED AND INCOMPARABLE.

Joxcab··52 votes·9,784 views

Riven's animation cancels were originally a bug. However, it was determined it fit her theme and entire character better than the original plan. It was rewoven into her kit entirely with specific changes made to both balance and accommodate the new playstyle. Also, she has been subsequently continually balanced throughout the patches now and then for any other necessary changes. Her being able to animation cancel is core to and perfectly fits her entire identity and is also the reason she is playable, instead of being garbage-tier trash. So what changes did she get? Making it so her kit doesn't literally rely on the server latency for success of cancelling. Wow, Riot must be such terrible, biased people. What else did they change? They removed her emote cancel.

Renekton is an extremely strong earlygame bully with a lower skill floor and ceiling than Riven. He isn't braindead nor is he simplistic in his cap. Good Renekton players can achieve massive differences. He also isn't as hard to pickup or learn to an average/decent level. In addition, he can build tankier than Riven and still function better, whereas Riven usually needs more damage to be relevant, even if she gets 1-2 tank items (as opposed to potentially 3-4 on Renekton). Now, I am not for or against the changes to Renekton. However, he could cancel autoattacks up to three times in a row, and up to four once he got Tiamat/Hydra. This is faster than any other champion in the entire game in pure AA canceling. Yes, champions like Riven can cancel almost everything, but not 3-4 AAs solely in a row. BUT GUESS WHAT? This ISN'T even what they removed! You heard me right. They did not touch a single part of his animation canceling! So what DID they remove? An unintended bug where an auto happened the same time he Q'd (a regular AoE ability) and a bug where his ultimate accidentally did a tick at the first instant of use. Guess what other bugs they ALSO fixed? His auto from passive not properly giving the full Fury, his E not hitting targets, AND his Q not properly hitting targets or scaling in model size. In addition, Renekton was given a QoL change so he could properly queue abilities. THEY DID NOT EVEN REMOVE ONE ANIMATION CANCEL ABILITY FROM HIM. IN CONTRAST, THEY FIXED MULTIPLE NEGATIVELY IMPACTING BUGS AND MADE HIM FEEL EVEN BETTER TO PLAY WITHOUT BUFFING HIM.

Now, Graves' case. All around strong, tanky, ranged, Burst/DPS duo, mobile, AoE champion who benefited greatly off lifesteal. What did they remove? Animation canceling? Sure. This time it was. But guess what? It was an unintended bug Riot themselves specifically and explicitly called out saying they needed to fix. So what specifically was changed? Oh, just someone being able to use an extremely long range ultimate with a low cooldown and high damage. In a way that literally goes against the entire design point. His ultimate is designed to knock him back as standard of recoil. This gives a chance for people to escape if he misses for instance or doesn't get the kill. However, by canceling it with E, he could both cancel the animation of the preparation and stay in his attack range by canceling the self-knockback. Wow, I sure wonder why this was removed!

Before you decide to make another post about how it's supposedly unfair or biased or bullshit or double standards about how Riven gets changes while Renekton's got "removed" and Graves' was removed, please learn the actual context of the changes and significance.

Funnily enough, Riven was the one who got a cancel she didn't need removed, while Renekton (one of the two champions people are complaining about getting a cancel removed) didn't get a single intentional cancel removed.

http://i.imgur.com/yeHLU0O.gif/?noredirect

123 Comments

IcyPepper13 votes

Her being able to animation cancel is core to and perfectly fits her entire identity

I don't understand how it does, tbh. Nobody's bothered to explain it to me :/

CithriaC4 votes

This is from the author of this thread but it explains it better than I can-

{quoted}

Her theme is meant to match that of a Street Fighter style. Lots of extremely fast combos, flashiness, movement. The animation cancelling is what allows for that. There's also the skillcurve aspect which directly ties in because certain characters are difficult but rewarding with various combos to be potentially mastered in a game like Street Fighter or Tekken for example. That is also the reason they didn't put a resource on her, instead limiting her to only her cooldowns (as would a character in there be).

In return, they nerfed her in the non-sideways fighter game aspects, such as things like health regen. Street Fighter doesn't have stuff like that for every character. League does. By making hers lower than the others for instance, it's a drawback that works as a weakness without ruining the theme.

This theme is probably why she got an arcade skin.

ChaoticPinecone9 votes

This is a half truth.

Yes, her theme on design as to match that of a Street Fighter style, but she was supposed to be a flashy, combo-oriented bruiser. She was released as someone who can really think between different combos in a fight - you can Q-E, you can Q-Q, you can Q-R, you can Q-W.

Animation canceling on Riven wasnt an intended part of her design nor is it what allows her to be a combo oriented champion. Take away animation canceling and Riven still relies on her combos. All animation canceling does is take her combos to a new level by giving her burst.

Joxcab5 votes

Yes except Riot decided as well as the playerbase and those experienced on Riven felt the animation cancelling playstyle complemented said street fighter theme better.

Which is why Riot literally mini-reworked Riven to become balanced around that instead. That is why it is part of her core design now.

ChaoticPinecone5 votes

I'm not debating what she is now. But youre making it seem as if Riven was created with the idea of massive combos and animation canceling, or that she would be unplayable if gasp she was forced to wait out her animations like everybody else. Neither are true.

And as we have seen before, "part of core design" can be changed, and I'm for changing Riven's now-core design. It doesnt fit this game. Want to keep animation canceling? Then stop taking it off every other champion's abilities. Either allow it for all or allow it for none. Riven shouldnt be an exception.

Joxcab2 votes

And old Riven before animation canceling was completely different and didn't have it in mind and that with animation canceling would have been probably broken. But that's not what she is. Animation canceling fit better so her entire kit was remodeled around it. So if animation canceling was removed now, her entire kit would have to be reworked once again to make up for it, while also pretty much completely destroying what makes Riven said Riven - the animation canceling.

Why doesn't it fit? The only reason it got taken off others is because it was additional power, a bug, abusive, and/or a mix of the three. That isn't the case for Riven.

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

{quoted}

The only reason it got taken off others is because it was additional power, a bug, abusive, and/or a mix of the three. That isn't the case for Riven.

This is exactly what it is. It is a bug (pretty sure you admitted it yourself), but it was embraced. It is abusive to be able to cancel so many animations - animations are supposed to be a hindrance.** And it provides additional power to Riven - a Riven who animation cancels is a lot stronger than a Riven who doesnt.

There was no such thing as "old Riven before animation canceling". Riven was always able to animation cancel. There was, however, a time before many players knew the extent that which Riven could animation cancel and even fewer players who can pull it off. There was no "remodel" of her entire kit. Her kit stayed the exact same - the only thing that changed was numbers.

**Whats funny is that on release, Riot decided that some of Riven's cast times were too much of a hinderence. They halved the cast time on her W and her ult. What they probably didnt expect was that it wouldnt have made a difference anyway - people found ways to remove those two casttimes completely. You can put them back to their full .5 second casttimes, and it wouldnt make a dent in the top Riven players.

Mannny1 votes

I don't think the animation cancelling really has anything to do with her burst. Her low cooldowns and building item 3142 and item 3814 probably impacts it more than the animation cancel.

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

It depends on what you mean by "burst". Does animation canceling do anything for her full-combo damage? No. In fact, the most popular animation cancels (out of lane) actually decrease your DPS since you dont weave in enhanced-autoattacks between very spell.

The only problem with Riven and animation canceling isnt her skill damage, per se. Its that she is able to pump out a large portion of her combo in the duration of her very short CC. She can E-W-Tiamat-Auto-2nd R-3rd Q in the same amount of time as a non-animation canceling Riven would E-Auto-W.

You can lifesteal through DPS. You can stack Black Cleaver stacks through DPS. You can stack fervor through DPS. If you have a healing ability, you can get a couple rotations off through DPS. You can disengage, you can run to a tower, or you can stall until you get backup. There is inherently a lot more counterplay to DPS than Burst for the majority of the game.

Hinagiku333 votes

Fun Fact: Animation Canceling in Street Fighter was also never intended, it was actually a bug. But players loved it and created interesting play styles using it and the developers embraced it as a core mechanic from then on.

Riven's cancels were also unintentional but later embraced as a core mechanic. Riot made her absolute trash without it so removing it now would result in massive buffs that would still feel horrible because Riven would deal the same damage she does now but would take even less skill to play.

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

Another Fun fact: Animation Canceling in Street Fighter isnt limited to one character. Its not like Capcom said, "Cody - you get to keep using this bug. Ryu, we are patching this bug for you." When other champions really start to abuse animation cancels (like Leblanc), we see them patched up. Not sure why Riven gets special treatment on canceling abilities to this extent.

I say treat Animation Canceling on abilities like they treat Animation Canceling on autoattacks - let everybody have it. Or conversely, if youre going to patch the up, then patch them up across the board.

Riven wouldnt require massive buffs, nor would it feel horrible to play against if animation canceling were removed. Ive said it somewhere else in this thread - DPS inherently has more counterplay than Burst. You can stack up fervor through it, apply black cleaver through it, lifesteal through it, kite, run, stall for teammates, etc. The reason why Riven feels horrible to play against is that she puts out massive burst in 1.5 seconds of hard CC while also being mobile as hell. Would she need buffs if animation canceling were removed? Sure. Would that make her feel worse to play against than current Riven? I say no unless the numbers are way out of line.

Joxcab2 votes

Because Riven is based entirely around animation canceling and is balanced as such.

Other champions typically have plenty of power even without it and thus said cases are either too much power or abusive because they go against the intention (such as Graves being able to cancel R knockback with E dash).

Yes, she would. She is entirely balanced around animation canceling. Removing it would make her instantly unplayable trash and destroy her entire identity. Feel free to rework them, but you might as well make a new champion at that point.

Also, her stun only lasts 0.75 seconds. Please actually learn about Riven before you make blatantly ignorant remarks. In return for the additional power from animation canceling, she was nerfed in multiple other areas to make up for it, as well as having specific changes made to accomodate for the animation canceling.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

I dont know why you keep saying "intention". I thought even you agreed that Riven was not intended to animation cancel. And she isnt "balanced" around animation canceling - she is broken or trash because of it. Thats not exactly balance.

{quoted}

Also, her stun only lasts 0.75 seconds. Please actually learn about Riven before you make blatantly ignorant remarks.

Broken Wings' third cast damages all enemies around Riven in an expanded radius, knocks them up, and can be used to go through some terrain.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Joxcab2 votes

She wasn't originally intended to animation cancel. But animation canceling was discovered for her kit, and it fit her theme better. So her kit was changed, nerfing her in other areas in return for the benefits that animation canceling gives so that it wouldn't be broken, and also further modifying her kit as to specifically include the animation canceling.

She is specifically balanced around animation canceling. She has received nerfs to other areas to make up for the power animation canceling gives, and her kit has been modified as to specifically include animation canceling aspects. She isn't broken nor is she trash.

Yes because she always uses her third Q to knockup, right, my bad. Congratulations on completely ignoring the rest of it.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

First you insult me by saying:

{quoted}

Please actually learn about Riven before you make blatantly ignorant remarks.

When I remind you that Riven has more than just a .75 second stun, then you respond with:

{quoted}

In return for the additional power from animation canceling, she was nerfed in multiple other areas to make up for it, as well as having specific changes made to accomodate for the animation canceling.

I'll ignore the fact that youre calling me "blatantly ignorant" when YOU are obviously biased in favoring Riven. Anyone who decides to ignore her third Q as CC for whatever reason obviously doesnt want to face facts.

What specific changes were made to accommodate for the animation canceling? You keep saying her kit was changed, despite me reminding you that her kit has been the same since release. Why dont you show me the patch where her kit was changed?

Hinagiku332 votes

Okay, Riot addressed this in Red posts literally only a few days ago.

  1. Riven is intended to use animation canceling to achieve her skill ceiling. Riot has stated repeatedly that they like that Riven can animation cancel and have balanced her around this. The idea being that gating Riven's power by player skill instead of just raw stats or a single key cooldown makes her a better designed champion.

  2. You are aware that we have patch notes and change logs for every champion right? Her kit was changed multiple times in multiple places across multiple seasons to better accommodate animation canceling and trim power so skilled Riven players aren't just completely bonkers. There was no single "Here's where we make all of the necessary changes Riven will ever need" patch. She wasn't reworked, she just got lots and lots of little changes. Just read the damn change log.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

  1. Show me. Or tell me where to find it, cause searching "Riven" with rioters comments in the past week doesnt show anything.

  2. Name them. You dont have to name them all - name 1 or 2 kit changes (not numbers changes) made to Riven to accommodate her animation canceling. For example, a combo that wasnt possible before that was "unlocked", certain combos that were removed, or entire new abilities that interacted differently. Of course she got numbers changes - every champion gets numbers changes. Show me the kit changes.

Hinagiku333 votes

  1. Riot talked about the changes to remove Renekton and Graves animation cancels and Riven came up a lot to compare them. I thought it was a Dev Corner post but I can't find it in the Red Tracker due to all the bug reports and stuff. Can't blame you for not finding that. There's older stuff too, but you'd have to search harder for that (like the old forum archive).

  2. I told you: THERE WAS NO 1 SINGLE "SILVER BULLET" CHANGE TO POINT OUT. That's just not how it happened. And most of it WAS number changes since Riot wanted to preserve Riven's overall power but take into account that when played well her skills came out faster and make her more burst-oriented. Some of the biggest changes were to Riven's Q damage and her Health Regen.

If I had to pick one, here:

V3.02 BROKEN WINGS - BUG FIX: Splash damage being incorrectly applied if Valor.png Valor was cast too recently.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Riven/History

Riot intentionally did not remove Riven's ability to use her E to cancel her third Q animation. They fixed a bug that occurred only when animation canceling to make the cancellation consistent. And that was back during Season 3.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

Here is what you said:

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bwIQT2og,comment-id=0009000000000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-08T02:31:01.702+0000) Her kit was changed multiple times in multiple places across multiple seasons to better accommodate animation canceling and trim power so skilled Riven players aren't just completely bonkers.

Your example: V3.02 BROKEN WINGS - BUG FIX: Splash damage being incorrectly applied if Valor.png Valor was cast too recently.

So youre telling me that a change which makes Riven correctly apply her damage is a nerf to trim her power so skilled Riven players arent completely bonkers?

Think of it this way - its not the first time that Riot has kept known and documented bugs in their game. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5xstco/22_unique_mordekaiser_bugs_happened_on_screen/ Doesnt make it intended. Or healthy. And it doesnt mean they should stay in the game.

Hinagiku332 votes

No, I'm telling you that Riot had to fix a bug that involved her animation canceling and instead of fixing it in a way that prevented Riven from animation canceling - you know, like what they just did to Graves and Renekton - they fixed it in a way to ensure her animation canceling functioned. That is rock solid proof that Riot supports Riven's animation canceling like you wanted.

Also, I found the Riot comment thread, it was on the PBE Boards (I keep forgetting they're separate and not searchable form here):

https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/IYzG01mq-710-riven-changes

Riven's animation canceling is 100% intentional. Riot has said over and over and over again that they like her animation canceling and have been gone back to her kit to make it fully integrated. She's gotten balance changes to accommodate it, bug fixes to keep her animation canceling functioning properly, and multiple times Riot has even look into making her animation canceling easier and/or more consistent since it is so core to playing her.

You think it is unintentional, you think it is unhealthy, and you think it should be removed from the game. Riot says you are wrong on all 3 points. If you think Riot is wrong, then make a thread and convince them that you are right.

48983507DEL14 votes

She's a highly trained warrior who weaves martial arts into her fighting style to counteract the problem of her sword being bigger and heavier than she is.

She needs to have a high skill ceiling to fulfill this fantasy. Since her base kit is fairly simple and easy to understand, it makes sense to balance her around the ability to execute these difficult animation cancels.

Robertsmash2 votes

Same, I don't get it. Champions with identities that revolve around exploiting a game system don't make sense to me.

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand how it does, tbh. Nobody's bothered to explain it to me :/

A standard doublecast combo involves 4 animation cancels.

First off, E+R. Casting R during your E lets you go in a lot smoother, and with the element of surprise. Second, the doublecast. W and Q are casted at the same time. Third, the Q cancel. Like a fast combo, WQ is canceled with a move command to make use of the Q's auto attack reset. Fourth, the R2+Q. R's animation can be hidden/canceled with Q's animation.

Without all this, Riven's oneshot combo would be a 6 shot combo, because it'd be so fucking slow.

Starboyˇ2 votes

How does animation cancelling perfectly fit her identity?

Joxcab4 votes

{quoted}

Her theme is meant to match that of a Street Fighter style. Lots of extremely fast combos, flashiness, movement. The animation cancelling is what allows for that. There's also the skillcurve aspect which directly ties in because certain characters are difficult but rewarding with various combos to be potentially mastered in a game like Street Fighter or Tekken for example. That is also the reason they didn't put a resource on her, instead limiting her to only her cooldowns (as would a character in there be).

In return, they nerfed her in the non-sideways fighter game aspects, such as things like health regen. Street Fighter doesn't have stuff like that for every character. League does. By making hers lower than the others for instance, it's a drawback that works as a weakness without ruining the theme.

Starboyˇ1 votes

oh okay that makes sense

InivtesPreeze1 votes

Except it doesn't.

He's saying what he wants to believe, ignoring reality.

Joxcab2 votes

Yes, we get it bud. You love to cry about champions because you are too ignorant to understand anything about their actual history and development. Now go on and go back to your corner and wait till the people who actually know what they're talking about or are willing to learn are finished.

TheGoomyGamer1 votes

I'm still not sure what side ur on. Do u dislike riven's cancels? Or do u hate how people are comparing Riven's cancels to Graves' cancels

Joxcab17 votes

The latter.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

What cancel did Riven lose though 0_o

Also exactly what do you mean by canceling autos? There are things like Nasus Q's which literally cannot be interrupted, which means they can have next to no animation time, which can be done by autoing with it in range and clicking away instantly instead of waiting for the damage to go through like you normally would.

Or do you mean normal auto attack resets where you need to wait for the auto to finish, otherwise it doesn't go through.

Joxcab3 votes

There was an instance where using the laugh emote could somehow essentially mask frames of animations of other abilities from what I heard, which is what they removed.

I don't fully understand the details, but it wasn't a necessary feature anyways and thus Riot removed it.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

There was an instance where using the Mastery symbol could somehow essentially mask frames of animations of other abilities from what I heard, which is what they removed.

If it's simply masking them that shouldn't be a problem, because that means the animation is still happening, you just can't see it.

BUT - that would be a bug. I don't want to not see my W animation just because I was spamming mastery at the same time.

Joxcab1 votes

Self-correction, it was laugh, not mastery, my fault.

But yeah, it was just probably considered hidden power/unnecessary (almost no one used it anyways).

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

Self-correction, it was laugh, not mastery, my fault.

But yeah, it was just probably considered hidden power/unnecessary (almost no one used it anyways).

It wasn't even hidden power - it did nothing. It hid the animation but it didn't cancel it, it didn't speed up the fast combo or anything at all.

LyingOnLine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bwIQT2og,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-05-03T18:43:28.238+0000) Also exactly what do you mean by canceling autos? There are things like Nasus Q's which literally cannot be interrupted, which means they can have next to no animation time, which can be done by autoing with it in range and clicking away instantly instead of waiting for the damage to go through like you normally would.

What are you on about?

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

What are you on about?

Nasus's Q isn't like most auto attacks. It's like a Kalista auto. It can't be canceled. Unlike Kalista, moving away during the animation, which would cancel a normal auto, does nothing except speed up the animation.

Automated Riven1 votes

Moving away from any aa doesn't cancel it. How man times have people flashed last minute still to be hit by the last as which was que'd. The only exception that I know of is that Jax has a bug where sometimes it cancels autos if they get out of range.

Rednewspaper1 votes

actually the auto will not go off if you break vision

Automated Riven1 votes

Unless they changed it (which I am certain they did not) that is unique to kalista.

statelesskiller1 votes

nasus q is a empowered AA. no empowered AA can be dodged once it starts. seriously i have killed vlads mid pool. fizzes mid E. with a arrange of things from nasus q to shyvana q jax W any AA empowering ability can do that

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

nasus q is a empowered AA. no empowered AA can be dodged once it starts. seriously i have killed vlads mid pool. fizzes mid E. with a arrange of things from nasus q to shyvana q jax W any AA empowering ability can do that

But... I'm not talking about dodging the auto. I'm talking about canceling the auto yourself.

I have 100% canceled my Q as Shyvana. When I take Drag and use it as an auto attack reset, the Drag pushing me back cancels it, effectively wasting my auto attack reset.

Troll for Trump1 votes

The graves nerf is much larger in magnitude and honestly shouldn't be fixed.

Joxcab4 votes

Why not? It was abusive as fuck and ran against the entire point of his kit and ult.

Troll for Trump3 votes

It wasn't really abusive. He's supposed to be a burst ADC, and not do DPS. He isn't really sacrificing dueling power as of late though. Because the animation cancel of the ult fits the burst identity of Graves, it shouldn't be removed. They should instead try to nerf his DPS, and make him more focused on burst.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

The point of it was to be the finishing blow, pushing him back towards his team after casting. Canceling it to use it as just another attack in the middle of his burst completely kills the point of it.

Nerfing him to compensate for this unintended and unnecessary mechanic is unreasonable and unwanted by most players. It means you'd have to play him in that specific manner to be at 100% while in other situations he sits at a spot lower than before the supposed nerfs.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Yeah, that' s why is burst theme is an issue.

What is his burst. What's his burst ability? His passive? No. His E? No. His W? It's basically just his Q. You're supposed to be using his R as an execute, but how will he ever get you inexecute range. He has to be constantly close to you, AS A SQUISHY ADC(supposedly "squishy" ) use Q and just spam AA. The only tools he has to get you in execute range is E, Q next to a wall, and then spam AA. That's not enough to get him into burst range, and that's one of the reasons why people don't build for bursting.

By nerfing his burst combo, they encourage players to avoid building and playing graves like a burst ADC, and more of a dueling sustained dmg dealer, which is what's been going on for a while.

It's like with Tank Ekko. The time it takes to burst someone on either of them takes so long, people would rather build for sustained dmg.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Burst was what he originally was. Post-rework he has intentionally been what's essentially a ranged bruiser.

I prefer he stay that way. It's unique and as long as it's balanced I see no reason why it can't or shouldn't exist.

Plus we needed and still need more contenders for LeeSin's endless hogging of the jg spotlight anyway.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I prefer he stay that way. It's unique and as long as it's balanced I see no reason why it can't or shouldn't exist.

Yeah, but most people don't like that. Myself being one of them.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Ah well, you win some you lose some. Can't please us all :/

...I miss old Karma.

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