If ADCs are supposed to be the kings/queens of sustained damage over time, they shouldn't burst.

Joxcab·7/16/2017, 9:35:29 PM·109 votes·4,969 views

#DO CTRL-F FOR "IDEAS" TO SKIP TO MY SUGGESTED CHANGES AS TO HOW TO FIX THE WHOLE PROBLEM AND BALANCE ADCS WHILE KEEPING THEM RELEVANT AT THEIR INTENDED JOBS

(PS: I am talking about the ADCs that go crit and attack speed into actually increasing DPS, not caster ADCs that are closer to assassins or AD mages, like Lethality Varus or Jhin - whose attack speed can't increase like a standard ADC - and such)

It doesn't matter how fed the ADC is. It doesn't matter whether they're one item or six full damage items without boots and 100% crit and highest possible AD for an ADC with 100% crit.

#As long as the ADC is not massively ahead:

It doesn't matter what point in the game it is. Everyone else will be lategame by the time an ADC hits lategame level number of items. They still shouldn't be able to near instantly delete even the squishiest of targets. That's not their job at any point in the game. Ever.

Armor reduces damage but the bonus armor pen from a Last Whisper item or one of its upgrades allows DPS to affect tanks while not affecting squishies because it is only towards bonus armorpen. Well, ideally at least.

However, they should not be outperforming assassins and mages at their own job of near instantly deleting squishies. For comparison, let's assume a lategame Zed has 400-500 AD. With his armorpen he can do pretty high theoretical on a squishy without armor built. His Q has a 90% bonus AD ratio with a 210 base. Assuming 300-400 bonus AD, averaging at 350, he will do up to 525 damage with one Q. Ashe has 79 base and 9 armor from runes most likely. Zed will most likely have around 30-40 Lethality because Edge is still situational and fairly poor. That reduces his Q to around 372.

Zed's Q is the more or less equivalent of an autoattack. Shouldn't do much by itself and is part of a larger overall thing. But an ADC does 600-900 damage with one autoattack lategame pre armor, while spitting those out far faster. Yes, Zed can do is overall burst faster because he uses multiple abilities in succession in addition to shadow replication of the abilities.

However, an ADC can do Zed's equivalent of his entire burst combo in just several autos which will take just barely 1-1.5 seconds or so longer than Zed to accomplish. And unlike Zed, they're not limited to a long cooldown for their burst combo, they continuously spit out that damage per second endlessly.

Now this is purely from autoattacks, not even any abilities that just about every single typical non AD mage ish ADC has. With their abilities, they can reduce the number of autos it takes even lower.

Why play an assassin when ADCs do it better and at range safe and protected by Exhausts, barriers, shield, CC, and peel?


#IDEAS - MY SUGGESTED CHANGES FOR HOW TO KEEP ADCS RELEVANT AT THEIR INTENDED JOBS WHILE REMOVING THEIR UNNECESSARY POWER AT JOBS THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT

  1. Give squishy champions far more base armor and armor per level than they do now. Do not give that to tanks. Instead, boost the amount of armor tanks have on their ITEMS a massive amount.
  2. Increase the Lethality to compensate for that (so for example, 40 Lethality instead of 18).
  3. Give ADC champions some way of gaining scaling bonus armor pen (scaling on their own level), drastically reduce the current damage they have, but make the damage exponentially increase as they autoattack. PREFERABLY on items WITHOUT Lethality so that ADCs will be FORCED to buy those items (it can just be incorporated into standard ADC items like Zeal/IE/etc) if they want DPS over burst.

What this will do is:

  1. Still let assassins do their job by having enough armorpen (because the higher Lethality to the higher base armor/armor per level will still do the same job as with lower Lethality and lower base armor/armor per level).

  2. Kill off abuse cases of ranged champions using items they're not supposed to, to an abusive extent. They will still be able to use them, but in return, their DPS will be even lower so they still can't do hybrid BS. For instance, a Varus could go standard ADC build and reap the benefits of the exponential damage in lategame, but they will lose the damage against squishies for the first several autos. Or, they can go Lethality anyways and have large, assassin-like burst damage, but in return, their DPS will be absolutely gutted, because they will not have the DPS items and the bonus armorpen. So they will essentially just be an AD mage and thus lose all of their DPS, as they should. Or like with the first example, if they go standard ADC, they will have massively exponentially scaling DPS, but they will lose the burst against squishies. AS THEY SHOULD.

  3. Still let ADCs do their two jobs (and what should be their only two jobs) perfectly well. The exponentially scaling damage means their first few autos will do far less impact on squishies, which is the point. However, said exponential scaling and their scaling bonus armorpen they will receive will make up for it against tanks, which is the people ADCs are supposed to focus anyways. And after they PROPERLY ramp up, if they focus squishies, they will still kill them quickly. But not before, which is the POINT.

  4. Leading off the above point, their damage against turrets will still be just fine because they are supposed to ramp up damage anyways. The longer they auto, the more damage they will do, including against turrets, and potentially burst them even faster than before. However, they will not gain that immediately in the near burst-killing towers way they already have from the very first second. As they should.

  5. Buff tower health, give them more armor, but treat said armor as bonus armor so that ADCs will properly work against them lategame, but reduce the massive snowball in early from everyone shredding them like toilet paper.

134 Comments

Void Kaiju7/17/2017, 1:35:11 AM38 votes

The thing that makes ADC seem unfair is when they have excellent ambush potential, or like vayne a way to break enemy aggro if she messes up. If somebody invests in full damage, don't be upset when they do damage.

Comparing zed to an adc is silly. ADC don't have even close to his level of poke or mobility or ACTUAL burst. Zed will hop on to you, death mark and slam his spells on to you in just over one second and then you die as a squishy and he's probably out of there. And adc has to go out of their way to chase you down and if much easier to retaliate against and CC. They don't get the shadows to leap to in order to escape or engage. They walk at you the old fashioned way. After the Lethality changes it's not preferable on carries because they won't be able to be as effective against targets with actual armor. If they build lethality and kill you, and you're a squishy, then they are doing the thing they built for. Get a tank to pressure them hard and then delete them since they have all the squishiness of an assassin with none of the safety.

The items that give ADC's "burst" are Shiv and RFC. They frontload extra damage which imo isn't necessary at all, it makes twitch's stealth+R combo have a decent initial burst, a vayne Q do silly amounts of damage, etc, etc. I think those two are problematic items when an ADC gets to engage a fight. The only assassin who is as easy to punish as an ADC IN THE LATEGAME is Talon. Earlygame talon has crazy burst, he rolls on his keyboard and destroys you. If he uses his ult for damage lategame then he is caught and probably dies unless he can flip a jungle wall which is hard in a teamfight where he may be focussed down. Please don't confuse high DPS with burst. Draven is the only champion whose DPS is so high I could consider it burst and that's after several items and usually with proccing either shiv or rapidfirecannon, and he pays for that by having no dashes and needing to play his juggle minigame. Draven doesnt leap from the jungle or dash past all your minions to get to you, he uses his legs.

To quote the argument EVERYONE said to ADC players when they were having a tough time dealing with tanks during the cinderhulk meta "you built glass cannon, you don't get to be tanky too." It applies to ADC, it applies to assassins. Grievous wounds is more accessible now than it has ever been and if an ADC is "draintanking" you then make the investment. Assassins have enough safety in their kits, their lives do not need to be made easier by removing a carries ability to fight back in the lategame where they are supposed to shine and be a proper threat. if their damage "takes time to ramp up" then they essentially only have the choice of running from an assassin regardless of if their support is there.

Ariel the Cruel7/17/2017, 12:32:36 AM11 votes

ADC's and assassins are both glass cannons. ADC does this late game. Assassins start doing this as late as lvl 6.

It's a question of timing these days

Sexy Jack Rabbit7/17/2017, 3:59:39 AM10 votes

I feel like a lot of this is hyperbolic. I really don't think the balance team appeals to "ADC-Overlords" I think it's just a case of circumstance.

Tanks needed to be reworked. They were just so stale, boring, samey and their itemization felt stagnant. And as much bitching came out of the update I do like tanks more for it. Now a lot of follow-up work is just being done.

Assassins needed more meaningful itemization. Whilst I'll always wonder why Riot decided to go with the follow-up lethality buff they did (from 40% - 60%) I'll never know. All that being said, I do like Assassins (Save for Fizz and Rengar ) SO MUCH MORE Now. Katarina is more fun and I'd argue healthier, Talon is actually viable, Zed isn't always the best assassin anymore, and Shaco feels at least a little bit better to play against.

Juggernaut update was so obviously an experiment for the class update system, similar to Karma for VGUs. They sucked, but they worked out in the end.

The marksman update set out to individualize what it did and it did a pretty good job for a few champions.

Chief Mayonnaise7/16/2017, 10:27:55 PM8 votes

Twitch Xayah Vayne These are the only champions I can think of who actually provide burst and sustained damage. It's not their items, it's their kits.

I'd like to ask though, why isn't it the job of the adc, the champion who builds only damage, to deal damage to everyone? Building crit means you're all inning into damage. You need 3 multiplying stats for it to work, leaving very little room to build much else. Why would somebody build damage to only counter tanks? Why wouldn't that damage also affects squishies?

Sulghunter7/16/2017, 10:56:46 PM7 votes

An ADC builds to achieve these numbers for two major purposes: working down tanks and working down towers as quickly as possible. This involves maximizing DPS, which entails a balance between raw damage, attack speed, and critical strike chance, with armor pen as a possible substitute for one of these factors. When done right, this will allow an ADC to, eventually, chew down the massive health pools of tanks and towers in a span of time that is useful, as compared to how long burst mages and assassins would take.

Now, keep in mind that this is taking into consideration of how tanks have two things: a huge health pool, and a not insignificant amounts of resistances. Combined, these two things lead to an ADC still needing a good measure of time to work down a tank, despite their absurd DPS numbers.

At this point, I would like to pose a question to you: What do you think is going to happen when your garden variety ADC with its massive DPS, which needs a good measure time to work down beefy tanks, turns said DPS against champions that don't normally build neither large health pools, nor any armor in significant quantities?

A more realistic example: What do you think will happen when something like this: https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/maxpayne/images/4/40/Rpg.png/revision/latest?cb=20120722225813 Is shot at something like this: http://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/large_1x_/public/images/2015/08/latvcrop.jpg?itok=C3p2s2vl When it is normally used against something along the lines of this: http://nationalinterest.org/files/main_images/abrams-transparent_0.png

magic lasso7/17/2017, 8:38:11 PM5 votes

The problem is that burst mages do not have enough burst to knock out the adc on a single cycle and if they fail in that regard (which at this point they always do) the adc WILL kill the mage and then proceed to kill everything else.

Riot has removed the rock paper scissors that is supposed to exist where mage kills adc kills tank kills mage.

They are turning league adc into dota equivalent without giving mages and tanks the massive early game advantages that they have in dota.

Dream High7/17/2017, 6:26:53 PM4 votes

When you're a top laner, 3 level higher and have armour then get chunked for half your health by 1 auto. FeelsBalancedMan

Critmaster Garen7/17/2017, 10:13:43 AM3 votes

marksmen arent even supposed to be kings of sustained damage.

adc or marksmen in specific arent the only type of carry and theyre not supposed to be the kings of carries. theyre just supposed to play different in the tools theyre utilizing to carry and theyre supposed to have their own different strengths.

there are skirmishers, fighters and ap carries that are supposed to be able to keep up with them lategame in terms of dps.

Darius Nasus Cassiopeia Ryze Azir MasterYi Yasuo Fiora

the only difference is the tools their utilizing to carry. theyre trading defense for range (much like ap carries), and reliability of said damage due to their damage source being their auto attacks.

juggernauts dont have range and frontloaded damage like marksmen, but high amounts of defense.

ap carries dont have much reliability in their ability to carry since theyre usually relying on some form of skillshots still. (like cassiopeia has to consistently hit her q to make the sustained damage on her e effective)

skirmishers dont have range or a lot of defense, but massive outplay tools and mobility.

adc or marksmen arent supposed to be anything special even when it comes to sustained damage. their specialty is their ability to siege and freely position in fights, while their sustained damage is 100% reliable to apply.

this reliability in itself already justifies them dealing less sustained dps than most of the other guys.

Elikain7/17/2017, 6:31:06 PM2 votes

I'm not sure what you do mean with "they shouldn't burst". Crit should be deleted? They shouldn't be allowed to use any skills? They should DoT to turn them into sustained damage dealers?

Every character has the same potential to deal you a chunk of damage, through AAs or spells.

Wicked Hunter7/17/2017, 7:14:28 PM2 votes

ADC'c are not even far op. Tell me with how many ADC's can you kill a tank in reasonable time?? Even with vayne it takes way too long to kill a tank and in the meantime if you focus the tank u ended up by dying, if you focus the adc/mid u die by tanks etc.

This tank meta is AIDS for this game. ADC's are deleted the moment they get a single cc and most of champions have more than one cc and imagine 3 champs with more than one cc each. GG

BoilTheOil7/17/2017, 11:47:29 AM1 votes

adcs are annoying besides Ezreal Jhin