What problems do people have with supports?

Madjack01··5 votes·739 views

I have to admit right here that I am a support main and that I might be too biased about the matter, hence why I would like some cohesive discussion about what the baseline issue is that (some) people seem to have with the role.

Firstly, my two cents: I noticed a trend which stretches way beyond LoL, in which people somehow reached a consensus that it is good design when supports feel like they are less than a whole champ. That for example playing against a support + any other class should be like playing against 1.7 worth of a champion. In addition to that, there seems to be the idea that supports are not allowed to have a comparable impact as any other role.

I always assumed that that had something to do with the dominance of dmg roles and how anti-fun it is for them to see their (hard) work negated by (point&click) supports. That point loses some credibility with the adc hunt that it is going on right now. However, I feel like it is exactly that hunt which warped the support role into a weird and undeserved position.

This is especially aggravating since the role covers a wide roster of champions with a lot variety. So throwing the same argument out there about insurmountable heals and shields feels strange at best.

This whole post is to my shame full of speculation and so called shower thoughts (not as cohesive as I would like). So I would highly appreciate some insights into the games mechanics and general gameplay which support (or don't support) the position the support role is currently in.

20 Comments

RobbieFry133 votes

First of all I never understand why people down vote a post that is essentially a question. Like what kind of mega troll do you have to be to have a negative reaction to someone asking your opinion? So you get an Up vote from me! On the problem with support I think the main issue is that a lot of people a very limited view of how to play the game. For example "MF is not a support!" Until some pro's use her as a counter I a very specific role and a complimentary team that works fantastic! Now to those same drones MF is an acceptible support pick eventhoigh she is terrible in almost every other situation. Adc mains can get really lazy bc they play several champs that are largely the same and then a good support can heal them, buff them, poke down their opponent and stun them so the adc just has to run up and right click for a kill, then they say "you are so lucky you have me to carry" Then when they get an unorthodox support that doesn't heal, or lacks hard c.f. and the need to think about positioning and changing their build or build order but don't the adc will largely flame their support eventhough the problem is their lack of knowledge of the games mechanics and their inability to adapt. Also some support players are just bad, no warding, no sup items, stealing kills and cs, which makes us all look bad too

Ir0n Tomato2 votes

Melee supports are really weak because enchanter supports are a little overpowered.

The reason is actually because of the buffs to adc's. Making supports more necessary and effective.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

What are "the buffs to adc's"? Can you name them?

Ir0n Tomato2 votes

gradual buffs to make them no longer "adc 2k17 lul"

https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/marksman-buffs-ad-carry-league-of-legends-patch-7-1-4285

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/2QqErugJ-current-thoughts-on-marksmen

That alone wasn't bad, but they also gradually nerfed assassins and tanks. Which are the counter to adc's making them dominent.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

I don't recall ADC's + enchanter supports being that hated since January. I think it only started after the most recent Lethality hype... so really what happened?

Also your links don't point to actual patches.

Ir0n Tomato2 votes

dude I really don't care enough to baby sit your research. do it yourself. I said its gradual over many patches. Obviously there weren't any complaints in January because they weren't op in January. They became op recently due to the combination of patches from january up till now.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

But you are making those claims and now I need to prove that they are not just empty? What?

You are allowed to say "ADC's are OP" while you provide zero evidence? You are allowed to say "They became op recently due to the combination of patches"? Without relying on a single fact?

I am just asking for what YOU should have done before you even reply here. This isn't my research. It should have been yours.

I really don't understand how you can live with the belief that ADC's are OP, even defend this in a conversation when you actually can't even prove it?

You just linked some random google results that you found quickly after being asked for actual sources, the only connection to the topic is, that they are about ADC's and you probably thought that this would somehow prove what you said.....because.... you think you are right anyway?

I really don't care

Oh ok. Then don't attempt to discuss.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

As Iron Tomato says, Enchanters are being complained about because they are particularly strong right now, especially in solo queue. These are champions like Janna Soraka Lulu Nami , Janna probably being the worst offender at the moment.

This happened less because of changes to any support class and more because of other changes. Over the past half year or so, tank items have been slowly getting buffed, along with some individual tank changes, making them somewhat strong again. The logical answer to this is strong ADCs, because they can shred those super beefy late game tanks. Then there were some crit item buffs that benefited a lot of these Marksmen, along with some changes to individual marksmen as well. Add to this the support item buffs, Ardent Censer being the worst offender, and you have a recipe for Enchanters to become OP. Ardent Censer is probably the heart of the problem, as it buffs shields and heals immensely and gives the shieldee free attack speed and basically life steal of sorts. Everything in an enchanter's build now revolves around Ardent Censer procs: Locket and Redemption both proc it as well, and add even MORE shields and heals to a support's repertoire. Hence people complaining about shields in the current state of the game.

I think that's the basic gist of it. There are a lot of support mains on the boards as well, you aren't the only one.

GinoSoldier1 votes

But see, the OP asks how the game became so that a support is considered 0.7 of a player instead of, well, a player. And then you run in and completely reinforce the 0.7 player view with these arguments instead of addressing his issue.

The OP is asking why the role of support can't be 1 player, and is suggesting that supports be made on par with other roles in the game in terms of stat efficiency, at the very least.

The OP wants to know how the hell we got to the point where ADCs on average have builds 4K gold more powerful than a support's, and think it's fair for the support players (or, to a lesser extent, every other player too).

The OP wants to know why tank supports get yet less budget to do their job than regular tanks, which means they get annihilated by ADCs late game a lot faster than non-support tanks.

Put it this way; he (we) want supports to be made the highest priority to kill first if they're completely fed, just like an assassin, a bruiser, a mage or an ADC would be. He (we) want Enchanters to stand on the same level of power as Mages, and have the same threat level. Same for supp tanks and regular tanks.

We think of Enchanters like support mages, basically. Instead of say, midlane mages who're usually around 60-80% damage and 20-40% CC, we want Enchanters to be 20-40% buffing, 20-40% damage, 20-40% CC. With the same power level overall. Similar comparison to tanks.

A valid demonstration of what we want would be AP Sona in botlane. Still gets wards, still buffs allies, still gets to have a chance to fight others equally and provide great CC (don't underestimate scaled power chords). Actually someone the enemy team wants dead on a regular basis.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

No, see, the OP asked "What problem do people have with supports?". He said "throwing the same argument about shields and heals seems strange". But there is a perfectly logical explanation to this. I am not explaining how things SHOULD be, simply how things ARE.

This whole "0.7 player" thing is purely perception. I'm sure all of us have had an afk support and we all know that it stings just as much as any other afk role. People might tell you different, but they're wrong. The Marksman has nobody to help him through his relatively weak lane phase, there's going to be less vision control, less utility and just one less body to defend against a full team.

Riot has been making an effort to make supports a more appreciable role. Whether that's been successful or not is up for debate. But I'll tell you right now that Ardent Censer is not doing the role any favors. It comes down to flaws in design, particularly current design, that are making some consider supports "0.7 of a person". You aren't going to move this discussion anywhere if you don't consider what is working for the role and what isn't.

And for the record, I think it's ok for SOME Champions to have their power invested at least in part into other Champions, as long as it's fair for the enemy and provides some interactions for the support player. It encourages team play in a team game. This is not a game you can truly solo carry. Even if you're fed to your eyeballs, your team needs to play around that. And the enemy team can play against that.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

Iron Tomato just showed that he can't provide anything to support what he said. Next pls.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

I guess you all are just too lazy to look up patch notes yourself, so I guess I have to do it for you.

7.13 - tank item buffs, including big Cinderhulk changes. Also, giant coin buff, where only the mana was eventually nerfed (10% missing mana instead of 15% currently) 7.12 - Big support item changes, including Ancient coin changes, Redemption active buffs, and some appealing tank items like Righteous Glory, Knight's Vow and Glacial Shroud 7.9 - The BIG mid season tank update, which, while mostly changed items around, ultimately gave us Zac, Sej and Mao, all pretty solid tanks right now, and items like Gargoyle's Stoneplate

That's all I bothered to actually link, but other changes I came across were the Malzahar changes that pushed him back to midlane instead of bot, Cait and Lucian nerfs that were pushing out a lot of hyper carry picks like Kog and Twitch, Cho'Gath's changes along with his synergy with Gargoyle's Stoneplate, Galio's changes that allow for a midlane tank pick, some Last Whisper changes, and a bunch of stuff that I don't have the time nor the desire to comb through all the patch notes for. There might have been more ADC changes earlier in the year, but all I found were mostly Cait nerfs, a few Jinx buffs, and some Corki and Jhin changes. Feel free to peruse the changes yourself, but I think the most relevant one's are the mid season tank items, the support item changes and subsequent buffs to Ancient Coin.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

7.13

tank item buffs...

  1. why do tank item buffs result in adc's being op?
  2. did you realize that there are mostly changes to MR items in that patch (sunfire cape literally unchanged total cost and stats)

7.12

Redemption got nerfed and I don't even know how this would make ADC's and only ADC's overpowered since you use this on your whole team if possible.

I am tired of this. You name the patches, but you don't interpret them, you don't even look whether what you call generalized a "buff" actually is one, and then you don't even bother to connect this to Adc's.

Malzahar is back in mid lane? Who gives a shit? He was never meant to be a support. Where is the relation? Nothing you named justifies the massive QQ that infests the boards.

All I see are minor changes that resulted in a meta shift, but "overpowered" is something diffrent.

Maybe we need to bring sated devourer back so players are reminded of what overpowered means.

Right now we see players who main Assassins or Bruiser whine about ADC's being "unkillable", how is that possible when hypercarries just became popular as an answer to tanks? None of those enchanters actually got buffed that hard since ages. They didn't see them for a while, so they just forgot how to play against them, plain and simple.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

You are someone who apparently fails to see the reason in "context". The best answer to a strong tank is a strong adc. Because supports were given the tools to support them (ancient coin's lane mana sustain, along with extra money to get Ardent Censer more quickly and some other things like THE BUFF TO REDEMPTIONS HEAL. BUFF. It's not better for the support, it's better for the team, along with being yet another way to proc Censer) they became the logical answer to tanks. Add to this some changes elsewhere, including but not limited to Lethality nerfs/changes, bot lane bullies like Cait nerfs (she got trashed), Malzahar being nerfed OUT OF BOT LANE so that he's no longer an issue to scaling adcs, and things fell into place.

You can't just sit here and say "This thing is not strong right now" when it so blatantly is. OP, I'm not sure, but definitely strong. And of COURSE people on Boards complain too much. It's Boards! League of Legends! People always complain, and I'm sure come preseason it will be a brand new set of complaints for us to complain about the complainers complaining them.

I think it's ok for people to try and express what they don't like about the current meta, why, and potential fixes. This is healthy and good for the game. I will be the first to defend Janna, I don't want to see her nerfed, it's not her that's too strong. There were a lot of changes leading up to the current state of affairs, and Janna was not one of them, but to ignore that she DID benefit from them is also a fallacy. I get that you are exhausted by SOME people, that they just complain and want her trashed. But complaining back does nothing. Especially since you are barking up the wrong tree. I am not the one you want to convince. I think it would be better to try and understand why people are frustrated and to come to some sort of compromise. (I'll admit some people

Also, I main support. ENCHANTER SUPPORT MAIN. But no, I'm probably just one of those Assassin mains wah wah, I'm crying a river aren't I? [sg-soraka]

Death by Glamour2 votes

Items that are more powerful than kits

Leaf on Bush1 votes

Simple, the majority of players gets mad when kills are denied.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

I feel there is....some sort of...relevant connection here.......[sg-lulu]

Leaf on Bush2 votes

Absolutely. In the life of every top or mid laner or jungler comes that point when a decision has to be made. Do I really want that kill or is it possilbe that the support uses shields or heals so I end up with not enough damage and also without a disengage to get me out again? Obviously if you don't respect the support as another champion and you only see the ADC thinking you can win this "1v1" then the decision is often a bad one.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Just goes to show how misguided some people are, I don't have to kill my opponent to take his base, lol.

Fowus1 votes

because they have victim complexes and are passive aggressive and will whine if you say one little thing to hurt their ego at least from my experiences support mains are some of the worst people I have met

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