Hypercarries should pay for their late game power

Tik115··22 votes·4,602 views

Azir Yasuo Vayne Tristana

These are considered among some people to be "Hypercarries" champions designed to become unstoppable beasts late game that can effectively almost 1 v 5 a team

But you would expect with champions with that level of power they would be useless against more early game centric champions, like your Caits your Lees your LBs but typically they do just fine, they can comfortably stay even with those kinds of champions and scale into the late game and destroy, so why is it hypercarries are more often able to handle their early game? lets remember that "Hypertanks" (Your Maokais, Nauts, Ali after the nerfs) rarely if ever win their lane or cause much impact in the jungle but come late game are practically unkillable and bring the threat of consistent heavy CC, why is it Hypertanks have got the whole "Weak early game, monstrous late game" concept down but Hypercarries don't?

In an even match up a Hypercarry should lose early game to the early game based champions but that isn't the case, Azir has enough power early game get a few easy kills, Tristana has insane safety with her W and ult plus pushing power with her E passive and good luck catching a Yasuo or Vayne, what is more irritating is they have shown the Hypercarry concept working correctly with Kog'maw combining lack of mobility with low range unless he uses his W or ult but with terrifying late game shred and siege power or Nasus turning into a raid boss but only if he can farm up Q stacks, and yet nowadays most Hypercarries are strong enough early game to be worth picking, so what's the point of picking anything else outside of being a comfort pick?

Could they change things about Hypercarries? absolutely the simplest being a massive alteration to their base stats and Growth per level, make their base stats be weaker then an early or mid game carry and simply give them enough growth per level to surpass them in the late game, suddenly you have the choice of picking an Early game carry for a quick win A more all round pick with a Mid game carry taking a big risk with a Hypercarry who will be able to decimate the enemy team should they get to the late game, Like how a Nasus do.

68 Comments

IGotScuttleCrabs17 votes

No mention of Poppy ? She a pretty reasonable hypercarry. Bad at farming. Mana gated. Easy to bully out of lane. But oh god if she makes it to even 4 items you better be ready for some toxic BS.

Kitten of Evil4 votes

That's why she's like first on their rework list. Her kit (passive and ult) is toxic, that's why they had to gut her early-game to complete uselessness.

WhereTheNamesAt5 votes

tbh Poppy is really the only hyper carry with an actual shit early game.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

Poppy Swain MasterYiAkali all work as intended, which is why we never see them (in lane at least, poppy jungle seems to be the new "afk farm and wonder why all the lanes lost to enemy shaco" for people who can't jungle, I legit saw someone start longsword on her in ranked).

Part of the problem is that players don't always mind their opponents and won't realize they need to dominate them. We've all seen the Caits that refuse to poke and just want to farm against Vayne.

junglerboy161 votes

This^ Poppy should ALWAYS have a crap early game, and when she doesn't you have to pounce on the situation (my best Poppy match ever I came out of lane with 7 kills because the enemy laner didn't know that my charge also stunned against my tower when he dove me). If you let Poppy snowball it is entirely your team's fault, which is how a hyper carry really should be, capitalizing on enemy mistakes and struggling if they can't.

Drunk Rummate9 votes

I have a hard time imaginging a Vayne going even with a Cait in lane unless that Cait is very bad and/or Vayne is very skilled.

Same goes with a Leblanc-Azir lane.

I think what you're asking for already exists, so I don't see your point?

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

Every single time I saw a Cait/Vayne lane while I was getting out of silver this season, Vayne won. At first I was just "lol ofc, these games just have to be as absurd as possible" but then I realized it was because a bad Cait won't poke, but a bad Vayne will farm. Doesn't help that Cait is a crutch pick for people who don't adc well; they don't try to play her as an anticarry and shut down the enemy adc, they just try to safely farm even though they're gonna get outscaled later.

junglerboy161 votes

Caitlyn actually has a surprisingly strong late game because of her range, so once she gets past her mid game (where her ability damage falls off) she can become really scary late game. The only thing is she needs a LOT of kills and a LOT of farm to get to that late game, more so than somebody like Vayne who peaks in the late mid-game.

junglerboy167 votes

Basically, Yes, Hypercarries should trade off a lousy early game for a strong late game.

Azir doesn't really have a good niche yet (he is both a lane bully and a late game carry), and Riot has yet to make it completely clear whether they want him to scale into late game or be a strong early pick.

Yasuo actually does have a crap early game, and is probably only balanced right now because of that. He used to have a strong early game, but they fixed that.

Vayne has a weak early game unless landing against another hyper carry, so I don't know what you mean?

I'm not sure Tristana really counts as a hyper carry anymore, she has less range per level, less attack speed, and has been refocused into an AD-ability-casting-pseudo-assassin.

You forgot the one who ACTUALLY has an issue, and that is Cassiopeia. She is a lane bully who also has a godlike late game, unlike your other examples.

Jamaree5 votes

Vayne pays for it by being the squishest ADC in the game with one of the shorter ranges.

Yasou pays for it by being squishy as well on top of doing well damage (in theory) then other melee ADCs because of the 10% less crit.

Tristana pays with her slow AS and weak mid game.

Azir, I don't know.

Icy Auron6 votes

If you have higher burst then Azir (incredibly easy to do with just about any mage), he's one of the easiest mid laners in the game.

Kitten of Evil10 votes

People get dumped on by Azir because they're afraid and timid, and won't engage on him, and refuse to recall when they're low.

Icy Auron8 votes

Or are playing one of the five mid laners that everyone else is playing, so he knows exactly what to do to stop you. The second they see an uncommon pick, they have to actually think again, and it throws them off.

Anivia basically can't lose to him.

EDIT: Hello again, Kitten. I should've known it was you, because it was a good point.

Kitten of Evil6 votes

Oh Hi Icy Auron. I saw that face Anivia and knew it would be you.

Icy Auron6 votes

The usefulness of Anivia extends to many topics. :)

Kitten of Evil4 votes

We just have to be careful, she might get nerfed if people catch on!

Random question: Anivia top? Viable or no? I recently destroyed a Darius top but I imagine she'd have a hard time sustaining without the mana regen runes.

Icy Auron5 votes

Darius is a bad test. Anivia beats the shit out of Darius in lane (I know this from many times doing it in 3s, back when Darius was considered by many to be a top tier fighter). It depends on the match up. If they have a way to get on you and stay on you (ex. Xin, Aatrox, Irelia), you're boned. If you can outharass them from a distance and have a bigger, more rewarding trade (even if Darius pulls me and gets a basic attack + W + Q, if I have RoA, I easily win the trade by simply nuking him with everything as I walk away).

Basically, DPS champs with good gap closers wreck her in lane, but she can deal with high damage melees like Riven and Darius.

I actually don't count on getting blue when I play, and I also take summoner 12 in 5s (summoner 13 in 3s, I'm quite serious). I don't know if that changes anything for you or not, but I basically just harass with ult + E until the enemy puts themself in a bad spot, then I throw my Q out and go for broke.

Kitten of Evil4 votes

Right. So I guess it's more of a situational pick then. Still, against lane bullies it could be an amusing unexpected counter-pick. I actually never take blue, so I'm used to playing without it. I would of course take TP if I were going top, there's no other way to get there quickly with Anivia.

Thanks for the response! I'm trying to climb the ladder with her and I want to see if I can use her outside the traditional mid role, since I can't always get mid.

Icy Auron3 votes

She's also a pretty good support. She's extremely slow to get damage, because you need to get Sightstone, RoA, AND Chalice, but if you focus on her amazing utility in lane, and are able to hold off on the damage until later, you basically become a second mid laner.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

I'm doing an Anivia support as we speak, hopefully it'll go well. I'm with a Vayne (I'd think it's good because the wall lets her condemn more)... but yeah, sightstone slows down the build.

Baron of Bread2 votes

Have you tried Tear instead of Chalice? I find it works well enough for me.

Icy Auron1 votes

That slows you down even more. I can't justify getting Tear on a support, especially after you still have to get RoA.

Baron of Bread1 votes

I will try your method then.

Icy Auron1 votes

Don't get me wrong, Tear gives you a better late game. I just feel like I'm being slow enough as is. :)

Baron of Bread1 votes

Honestly, I am pretty sure I didn't take RoA or Chalice. I think the fact that my ADC was pretty heavy on the poke as well made the enemies back so much I didn't really have to worry about mana.

LordKentravyon4 votes

Azir has his ult to help disengage

but once thats gone he has a hard time kiting (pretty much just straight running) and he is bad at chasing in general he is first and foremost a zone control person but if you change the zone faster then he can follow (or after he has spent soldiers) or manage to push him out of it ( 2 people flanking him can accomplish this) He is in a bad spot.

It's also pretty easy in lane to punish him after he Q's especially if his Q misses you / is used to shove the lane.

I also love how riot balenced his E

He can use it to all in and gets a shield to reward him for that, but if he does that he is exactly where he does not want to be and if picked a bad time he's in trouble, whereas if he's saving it for escape not only can CC mess with him like most other escape, but smart positioning can block his route.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

{quoted}

Vayne pays for it by being the squishest ADC in the game with one of the shorter ranges.

Yasou pays for it by being squishy as well on top of doing well damage (in theory) then other melee ADCs because of the 10% less crit.

Tristana pays with her slow AS and weak mid game.

Azir, I don't know.

Azir pays for it by having crappy sustain in the early game if he uses his soldiers to CS. Everytime he does a harass combo, he also can't CS in the middle of it, because he effectively harasses through autoattacks.

Yasuo doesn't pay for it by having 10% less crit, because he has -double- crit. Having 100% crit gives more damage overall than the other champions that can maybe get 50%.

Rebonack4 votes

'Good' Hypercarry in giant finger quotes.

There's a reason why Koggy is in the Top Five least picked champions along with Zac and Urgot. His early game is so weak that there's no real reason to pick him over safer champions who, while not scaling quite as hard, have a much more commanding presence early and mid.

Drunk Rummate4 votes

{quoted}

'Good' Hypercarry in giant finger quotes.

There's a reason why Koggy is in the Top Five least picked champions along with Zac and Urgot. His early game is so weak that there's no real reason to pick him over safer champions who, while not scaling quite as hard, have a much more commanding presence early and mid.

No way, Kogmaw actually has an excellent lane phase. His W is manaless and it chunks from a pretty big range. He's capable of bullying out many strong champions, especially once he hits 6.

The reason he has a low pick/winrate in soloqueue is because he's very immobile. He gets picked on in the midgame when he just wants to farm and he gets assassinated in the lategame when his disorganized soloqueue team refuses to peel for him.

Omiwom4 votes

Hypercarries like Vayne, Kog, Nasus, have tools to survive laning, for example Nasus passive, but that's really all they have early until hitting power spikes. And you have to punish them with the confidence that you're stronger. Just because you pick a strong early champ doesn't mean you get the lane handed to you. You always have to work for it. If you change the stats of hyper carries, you're eliminating diversity by forcing them to play scared early.

On the other hand,I do see an issue with champions like Yasuo and Azir though. Their kits have the potential to do anything. It's the player's fault if they don't stomp the game with these champions, but at the same time it is impossible to play them perfectly. Have you noticed how all Riot's recently released champions scale extremely well? They don't want to give them any weaknesses. These champions weren't supposed to be late game monsters, they just turned out to be. The problem is they are able to be stronger than older champs at any point in the game through outplaying them which is just wrong because it's basically saying to their opponent they can't do anything and that the matchup is entirely in the hands of how good the person with the overloaded kit is.

I would like the next champion released to resemble pantheon or lee sin, not in the AD caster sense, but in the way that they clearly fall off late game.

Serevas3 votes

Vayne is pathetic early game, I'm not sure where you're getting that she isn't, you have to be incredibly skilled with her or have a support that can carry you up to the point of being effective, typically both if you're playing against anybody who has ever played any ADC beyond the tutorial Ashe.

Yasuo only gets away with his weak early game because a properly skilled player can take advantage of minion waves to dash up to an opposing mid laner to bully them out with enhanced auto attacks and the like. Not to mention that Flow provides a slight absorption shield and he has wind wall to help him survive the lane and not get poked out every 3 seconds. Not to mention that people tend to play scared of Yasuo allowing him to free farm into his hyper carry status.

Finally the entire point of a hyper carry is to be a difficult to play champion that is fairly weak in the early game, which all of them are. So yes they should be stronger because they're more difficult to play.

JC DarkOmen3 votes

Azir can't 1 v 5 Vayne has an incredibly weak early game Yasuo falls off harder since the nerfs and you can dodge his ult unless his team helps him out (Alistar Vi Malphite Yasuo Draven ) Tristana just got reworked. give the balance team time. Also, she can't 1v5 either.

RexZor2 votes

TBH tristana change has made her not a hypercarry anymore after a few games with her i just don't feel like she deserves that title anymore. Vayne is a mechanically hard champ and her early game is terrible vs your caits and jinxs. Yasuo has fallen off hard and is not even worth playing. Azir is probably the hardest champ to master in the game right now and is easily miss playable in the early mid and late game. These concepts of hypercarries has fallen off there's non atm IMO. Hypertanks i feel are becoming harder to deal with , with the nerf to assassins and the damage all around to champs that could deal with them. Making the Sion's Nasus's unstoppable if the game does go that far. But if you still feel the same way they could start by nerfing they damage per level early but still being the same value at max level.

Tik1152 votes

The thing is something shouldn't be stronger because it's tougher to play, that's just fundamentally a bad design philosophy, if you had a champion who had 1 HP all the time but had a global skillshot that 1 shot any champion it hit would the fact they have only 1 HP justify the damage because it's more difficult to play? No it doesn't and I know that's a massively blown up example but It's still a very similar scenario, the reward for playing tougher champions SHOULDN'T be superior power because the "easier champions" would always be at a disadvantage which means why bother playing them? why bother having them in the game? what playing a Tougher champion should reward the player with is more versatility with their role or champion, stuff like Lee sin, as much as I hate him shows how a high mechanical champion SHOULD be, able to utilize their more complex mechanics better then the less mechanically intensive champions

RexZor3 votes

{quoted}

The thing is something shouldn't be stronger because it's tougher to play, that's just fundamentally a bad design philosophy, if you had a champion who had 1 HP all the time but had a global skillshot that 1 shot any champion it hit would the fact they have only 1 HP justify the damage because it's more difficult to play? No it doesn't and I know that's a massively blown up example but It's still a very similar scenario, the reward for playing tougher champions SHOULDN'T be superior power because the "easier champions" would always be at a disadvantage which means why bother playing them? why bother having them in the game? what playing a Tougher champion should reward the player with is more versatility with their role or champion, stuff like Lee sin, as much as I hate him shows how a high mechanical champion SHOULD be, able to utilize their more complex mechanics better then the less mechanically intensive champions

I disagree they do deserve to do more damage. If they don't whats the point in playing them in the first place when i can choose annie who does more damage and is point and click. Syndra does tons of damage but is hard to play more damage than annie if played right. But why pick syndra when i can just click on you with Veigar and one shot you. If have ever noticed the higher the difficulty of the champ the higher the damage. It should be that way or its literally no point to playing high skill champs. But the trade off is i do more damage but i gotta be skilled to actually do the damage and the balances out the high damage low skill champ. If played correctly i feel Azir should beat most mids. Because he is IMO the hardest champ to play.

Tik1153 votes

By that logic why should anybody play Garen, Kat, Cait etc when a more mechanically intensive champion can outdamage them all the time? Why have them in the game to begin with if they're just going to be outdone by a champion that is slightly more mechanically intensive?

It isn't fair to make a champion stronger just because they are more mechanically complex, a more mechanically complex champion should mean they are more versatile in their role.

Example, Garen V Vi

Both are tanky damage dealers meant to go in and cause havok

What can Garen do to for this? Hit Q and W, Run in, hit E hit R, thats it. Vi on the other hand can go through walls, disrupt teams with her ult, weaken tanks with W, she has alot more options then Garen and thus makes her more versitile in ether a disrupter, Picker or Peeler, Garen can only run in and spin

Why would you ever play Garen when Vi can do the same? because Garen is easier? sure but that means he's easier to stop so whats the problem with him being equal in terms of damage and such with the more mechanically complex ones? The reward for Mechanically intensive champions should be versatility, allowing them to beat their less mechanical intensive counterparts by means of being more flexible in their role

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

Easy champion: raw power Hard champion: outplay potential

That's why if you play a 450 ip champ and win, it's 90% because your opponent didn't deal with you properly. Vayne isn't strong because she's hard, she's strong because she can potentially outplay anyone (and has to do so in order to be as impactful as Tris)

Budupops2 votes

"tanks monsterous late game" item 3035 item 3153 item 3135 item 3142 item 3071 Nope.

JedenVojak2 votes

Those champions aren't hypercarries.

To be a hypercarry, the champion has to reach a point in the game where the entire enemy team working together cannot stop them.

The closest thing to a hypercarry in the game is Poppy, as far as I know.

This is what a hypercarry should look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0BsPSsQvr0

Skoonie3 votes

Your definition is a little skewed. Hypercarries are champs that have a near undefeatable late game in exchange for having a meh early and middle. Champions like Vayne, Kog, Nasus, and Poppy are all hypercarries.

Sooko1 votes

I still don't see Fiora/Vayne being weak any time of the game, and later on their strength doesn't drop at all. To me, it feels like they have a huge kill potential from very early, and as soon as they get a kill, the game ends for the enemy team unless they have a champion made specifically to shut them down (Malph for example).

But I don't know what can actually be done about it.

junglerboy164 votes

Fiora is in a really messed up spot right now, and is the poster child of "low counter play, feast or famine snowballing", so don't expect too much from her (Riot knows she is a problem and has said it quite a few times).

Vayne though, unless you put yourself in really bad spots (like right next to a wall at less than 50% HP) shouldn't have a strong early game at all without a support literally spoon-feeding her early kills, So I would argue she either outplayed you or was lucky and had an amazing support.

MrSexyHobo2 votes

pick a strong early game support with the weak early game adc....... profit

MrSexyHobo1 votes

to kill a good vayne you need a bruiser with cc and burst. malphite is the worst champ to take on a late game vayne that i could think of

junglerboy163 votes

Wait, what did you just say??? Malphite is the DEFINITION of how to shut down a Vayne. He is an armor/HP tank whose core ability has a 50% AS SLOW. I'm going to assume you are either drunk or don't know how his kit works, because armor and health stacking combined with his amazing initiation and crippling AS slow against possibly the most AS reliant ADC in the game makes Malphite beyond amazing at hard countering her. He is a Bruiser with CC and Burst, like you said is needed, and inherently counters her kit with his design.

MrSexyHobo1 votes

in a team figth yeah. outside of teamfighting malphite is your bitch

junglerboy162 votes

Well that is because Vayne is a duelist, so of course she does well outside team fights.

Per Favore1 votes

Vayne can't beat anyone in lane so there's one wrong on that list

Zoof1 votes

As someone who mains vayne adc, I'll be serious when I say that winning lane is not a common experience. Playing against any competent person on just about any other adc will almost always lead to me being down on cs and behind in lane generally speaking. Until I get a BotRK, winning a fight as Vayne isn't easy.

Also by picking Vayne, your team and the enemy knows that you won't join team fights for the mid game.

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