Kog'Maw: Now you're eating with explosions

Rebonack··25 votes·1,521 views

Kog'Maw has a lot of weaknesses.

No, seriously, a lot of weaknesses.

He's weak early game. He's weak to dives. He's weak to disengage. He's weak to flat damage reduction. He's weak to flat damage return. He's weak to CC. He's weak to short trades. He's weak to long team fights. He's weak to attack speed slows. He's got the weakest mobility in the game, which makes him weak against skillshots. Four of his five abilities are skillshot-based, so he's doubly weak to mobile opponents.

At the moment, his Passive is (sort of) covering one of his weaknesses. His weakness to dives. If you dive Kog, he's probably going to explode on you. It's a fairly strong (and hilarious) Passive. So instead of going the usual route and suggesting the replacement of Kog's Passive with a new Passive that augments his strengths, what about changing it up a bit to help cover a few of his weaknesses? What if he could share his Passive with his foes?

Icathian Surprise: Kog'Maw's skills and basic attacks attach Void Spores to enemy units for four seconds. Void Spores stack, refreshing the duration. After four seconds, the Void Spores catalyze, dissolving the victim for (amount) True Damage per Void Spore. If an enemy Champion is killed before the Void Spores catalyze, Kog'Maw is healed for (amount) per Void Spore and the cooldown on Bio-Arcane Barrage is refreshed.

Upon taking fatal damage, Kog'Maw remains active for 3 seconds, losing the ability to use abilities and basic attacks but becoming untargetable and invulnerable and gaining bonus movement speed over the duration, increasing to up to to 40% bonus movement speed. At the end of the duration he bursts, inflicting all enemy units hit with (number) Void Spores.

So what does this do?

Well, for one, it adds absolutely no additional damage to Kog's already impressive raw DPS. It does, however, patch several of Kog's weaknesses. Tagging a foe several times in a quick trade would hurt more. Enemies who use mobility spells to launch themselves out of Kog's range when he uses Bio-Arcane Barrage would take a little extra damage. The heal and Bio-Arcane refresh on decisive takedowns would allow Kog to bounce back from failed dives and continue to sustain his damage through protracted battles.

He would still be weak to dives. And early game. And damage return and damage reduction and mobile champions making him sad and heavy burst and assassins and large AoE effects and basically everything else. But! Now he would have an answer to some of those things!

And best of all? Those Spores are digesting stuff for Koggy! He would finally get to eat something! Considering it's been over five years since Kog was released and he still hasn't gotten the chance to eat anything, I figure it's high time Kog gets a snack.

29 Comments

Mysticman894 votes

I'm not actually following the line about how it adds no additional damage to his damage output, as it seems to blatently add true damage to his trades.

Still, his current passive is quite lackluster, so alternatives are welcome.

Rebonack7 votes

{quoted}

I'm not actually following the line about how it adds no additional damage to his damage output, as it seems to blatently add true damage to his trades.

Still, his current passive is quite lackluster, so alternatives are welcome.

Allow me to rephrase slightly.

It adds damage to Kog's trades. It has the potential to add to his damage output. However, it adds no damage to his raw DPS. If Kog burns someone down with his basic attacks in two seconds flat as he tends to do with a full build he won't get any extra True Damage to help him kill stuff faster.

That's the idea here. Kog gets no extra damage in his ideal use scenario (focus someone to death really fast). However, he does get extra damage to patch up his poke, trades, and ability to revenge-kill. And if he plays well, he nets a small heal and refreshes his W to keep up the fight. His strengths don't get stronger, but his weaknesses get less weak.

Saianna1 votes

Now, while you are at passive try and think a way to bring back AP kogmaw (not AS-OnHit) ;)

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Now, while you are at passive try and think a way to bring back AP kogmaw (not AS-OnHit) ;)

Smooth scaling on his Ult's bonus damage would do it.

Alternately, give him a flat AP ratio (0.5? 0.6?) on his Ult and leave the execution to AD Kog.

Either of those would allow AP Kog to be a bit more poke focused that he is right now. Can't do much about the base damage, though.

kile1471 votes

Make the spores scale with AP?

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Make the spores scale with AP?

That would (technically) be a buff to AP Kog, but I really doubt it's the sort of buff to AP Kog that AP Kog enthusiasts would want.

People played AP Kog for his relentless Ult poke grinding the enemy team down. So long as Riot keeps it as an execute, that probably isn't going to happen.

kile1471 votes

Well I mean it would change him, but the spores scaling with AP would still give him relatively long range poke if he presses W, tags them a couple times, then backs off. I guess the biggest issue with that being that the play style isn't super different from AD Kog

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Well I mean it would change him, but the spores scaling with AP would still give him relatively long range poke if he presses W, tags them a couple times, then backs off. I guess the biggest issue with that being that the play style isn't super different from AD Kog

Bolded the important part.

Riot is only interested in resolving between AP and AD play styles provided they bring something different to the table. At the moment, the only difference between AP Kog and AD Kog is:

'AD Kog burns down his target with W and then finishes them with his Ult'

vs

'AP Kog bursts his target with QE and then finishes them with his Ult'

If Kog's Ult had a flat AP ratio rather than an amping one, that would help to resolve between the two builds. AP Kog's Ult would be much better at poking full health targets while AD Kog's would be better for execution. That, I think, would be a compelling difference. But I'm not sure if Riot is interested in leaving design space for AP Kog to function. They probably want 'poke Mage' to be covered by Lux, Ziggs, and Xerath.

Rebonack2 votes

Honestly, though, I think this would be a pretty great way to make help Kog out a bit.

Making his strengths stronger is dangerous. Everyone seems to be able to agree on that one.

But by patching up some (though certainly not all) of his weaknesses, the number of situations where Kog isn't too much of a risk to pick grows.

DrNova1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, though, I think this would be a pretty great way to make help Kog out a bit.

Making his strengths stronger is dangerous. Everyone seems to be able to agree on that one.

But by patching up some (though certainly not all) of his weaknesses, the number of situations where Kog isn't too much of a risk to pick grows.

He has too many situations already, and half a match, where he is a risk to pick. More so then any other champ. I see no downside to giving him a little extra room.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

He has too many situations already, and half a match, where he is a risk to pick. More so then any other champ. I see no downside to giving him a little extra room.

It would certainly make his early and mid game a little stronger, since his trading and poke would be a bit better. In the team fight phase he would actually be able to keep doing his thing through the whole battle rather than crapping out in the middle of it.

Given how the game works these days, I don't think 'complete shit early game, only good past 40 minutes' is really a thing that's functional.

Yuumi or Lose2 votes

Not to mention that 3 of his abilities doesn't scale with AD. Right now the the most efficient build is on-hit Kog, which is so weak late game and if you go AD Kog, you're not getting much bang out of your buck. AD Kog was relevant when they added the AD ratio on his w, despite not having the instant 2% max health damage. That made Kog'Maw transition towards late game way better than on-hit. Now, you need to rely on the same exact build (rageblade, blade of the ruined king, etc.) to be useful, reach your power spike mid-game if you don't feed and live through harassment over and over, and still fall off late game.

Kog'Maw falling off late game is the biggest issue imo and it would be really great if they brought back the AD ratio on w. And for the love of fucking god, REDUCE HIS MANA COST ON W, E AND R PLEASE.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Junkyard TrundIe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bgL2QXH1,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-05T00:30:17.615+0000)

Not to mention that 3 of his abilities doesn't scale with AD. Right now the the most efficient build is on-hit Kog, which is so weak late game and if you go AD Kog, you're not getting much bang out of your buck. AD Kog was relevant when they added the AD ratio on his w, despite not having the instant 2% max health damage. That made Kog'Maw transition towards late game way better than on-hit. Now, you need to rely on the same exact build (rageblade, blade of the ruined king, etc.) to be useful, reach your power spike mid-game if you don't feed and live through harassment over and over, and still fall off late game.

That's certainly part of Kog's problem. When his W had a total AD ratio it let him build AD without feeling bad about it. If you aren't spamming OnHit for his W, then you may as well be picking Trist or Jinx instead. Reverting the last change Riot made to Kog's W, but keeping the 15 minimum damage, would help him out tremendously.

Kog'Maw falling off late game is the biggest issue imo and it would be really great if they brought back the AD ratio on w. And for the love of fucking god, REDUCE HIS MANA COST ON W, E AND R PLEASE.

It does seem weird that Kog's E costs more mana than most Ults.

Nogrim2 votes

in all honesty you sound like you are just shit with kog imho, not everyone can play every champ, the sooner some people realize that the less of these dumb threads there will be.

Rebonack6 votes

{quoted}

in all honesty you sound like you are just shit with kog imho, not everyone can play every champ, the sooner some people realize that the less of these dumb threads there will be.

Thank you for your honest opinion.

Tell me, do you feel that Kog is a worthy competitive pick for the ADC position in Solo? If so, what do you feel makes him valuable on a team when compared with other late-blooming Marksmen, especially in a meta that strongly favors early and mid-game strength?

Profirix2 votes

I appreciate your polite response to this troll. Most people would have just given the middle finger.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I appreciate your polite response to this troll. Most people would have just given the middle finger.

I think the board could use a little more civility.

I'm glad other people agree.

You know what else our community could use?

A Kog'maw that isn't terrible!

Rebonack1 votes

I'm curious here.

Totally disregarding how strong it is or how well Kog's Passive fits with his kit, how many people enjoy using it?

I'll say I do. It's funny. And there's a certain satisfaction that comes from blowing the shit out of that Talon who thought he could dive you and get away with it.

Jalkan1 votes

I have an idea: Make Guinsoo's his passive.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I have an idea: Make Guinsoo's his passive.

Passive - All the Rage: Kog'Maw begins the game with Guinsoo's Rageblade in his inventory.

I'm sure that would go over well.

Or do you mean something like a Hybrid version of Orianna's Passive with MOAR stacks?

Rebonack1 votes

Now I'm just spitballing here, but I figured I would suggest a few concrete numbers on this new passive concept.

The basic idea is that each Void Spore would have the potential to do roughly one tenth of the damage that Kog's current Passive does. So if you hit someone ten times at level 18, that'll be about 550 extra damage if they somehow manage to escape. Because let's be fair, aside from a pure Tank that Kog is attacking with no team support there really aren't that many champions who will survive ten auto attacks from a fully built late game Kog.

Kog's self-destruct would inflict the target with four Void Spores. So to get the same damage from Kog blowing up, you would need to hit the target at least 6 times first. That means Kog's self-destruct would be quite a bit weaker if you manage to jump the Voidpuppy and kill him before he has time to react. Which, I think, is a good thing. Players should be rewarded for quickly neutralizing Kog'Maw.

As far as the heal goes, that one I'm not as sure about.

When it comes to late game champions sitting on two Lifesteal items, healing for over 50 health on each attack really isn't unheard of. And Kog can't use his passive to sustain off minions. Nor to sustain in the midst of a beat-down. He only gets the heal if he wins. I have the feeling that healing for the full amount would probably be fine, but if not then half or even a third would be workable. The main draw of fast take-downs is refreshing his W, the heal is just supposed to be a nice bonus.

Leu071 votes

just buff the kog

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

just buff the kog

Well, yes.

That is sort of the point of these suggestions.

pooppoop31 votes

[deleted]

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Kog is also susceptible to creep block while in his passive.

Fun Fact: Back in season 1 any CC that was on Kog when he died would persist for the whole duration of his Passive.

Trying to catch people after getting snowballed by Nunu wasn't any fun.

Alex Sloan1 votes

Something needs to be done, about his early/mid game I believe.

But, that being said... Kog's late game Gigacarry is absurd.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Alex Sloan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bgL2QXH1,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-02-05T23:10:33.095+0000)

Something needs to be done, about his early/mid game I believe.

But, that being said... Kog's late game Gigacarry is absurd.

That's the goal of this new passive.

Kog's early and mid would be improved since his poke and trades would be better. The heal would also be great for smaller skirmishes so long as Kog doesn't get caught out.

Late game it probably wouldn't be adding much damage to his raw DSP, but it would allow him to sustain his damage through extended battles.

Ruin Lance1 votes

this seems like an awesome idea, as long as the numbers aren't very high.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ruin Lance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bgL2QXH1,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-02-06T02:34:54.337+0000)

this seems like an awesome idea, as long as the numbers aren't very high.

It's hard to guess at how powerful effects like these would need to be without being able to actually test it in game.

I would imagine something like one tenth the value of his current Passive per Void Spore might work, but that's just spitballing it.

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