Vladimir mains, arise! What are the cores of our Champion?

Over Innsmouth··19 votes·4,134 views

So the Brand Direction Dev Thread came out a couple of days ago, and it invigorates me to see the Burning Vengeance's fans pitch in and try to recreate their Champion in collaboration with Riot.

I absolutely cannot wait for the Vlad Thread to come out and put my own ideas forth, as well as see what everyone else has in mind for our Crimson Reaper.

However, before that happens I want to try to...pool our efforts, and create a cohesive, as-singular-as-possible definition for where we want Riot to change our Champion, and where we're okay with them experimenting and changing.

So, here I want to brainstorm and store our potential definitions that we collectively put forward. What do we feel is essential in remaining in order to keep Vladimir, Vladimir.

Personally, here's what I think makes up the core of Vlad on a primary level:

  • Sustain without mana, or better; Endless Sustain. Without any question, this is what separates Vladimir from other mages that also possess high-level sustain such as Swain andFiddlesticks . The way his sustain currently works is that since it's balanced around its rapidly decreasing CD as you level it, it starts shitty and finishes spectacular. This needs to remain, the fact that over a long, drawn out fight he should always prevail by virtue of keeping his health topped up. Note: what I do not want is current-Soraka levels of ludicrous healing or for his sustain to be totally free (it absolutely shouldnt be), what I want is consistent healing that doesnt outperform, but outlasts healing that's reliant on mana.

  • Being a Juggernaut-Mage, and the versatility it offers. This train of thought stems entirely from his current passive: Crimson Pact (HP->AP and AP->HP). I understand how Riot might not like his current passive since it's a) free stats and b) requires knowledge that can't be learned in-game to fully understand the mechanic. However, it provides him with tremendous versatility in build paths. Almost every Vladimir accepts that item 3152 is the core of Vladimir from an itemization standpoint. However, after that, as long as it has AP and/or HP, you can build whatever you want and find success if your Vladimechanics are up to scratch. I've found success with hyper-AP builds, I've found success with WotA-full tank builds, and I've found success with (personally my favourite) a mix of both (item 3152 item 3116 item 3158 item 3065 item 3742 and item 3157 or item 3001 ).

These are the two things I really hope Riot maintains in some way or another in Vlad. He isnt just tanky by virtue of his build path, but also because his kit amplifies his tankiness and damage with each other, and because he heals at a rate that almost doubles his effective health bar over long, drawn out fights (hello TahmKench ).

On a secondary level, these are core aspects of Vladimir that I would like to see remain, but wouldnt be disappointed or crushed if they were removed or heavily tweaked:

  • Sanguine Pool, the Puddles will Run Red. This is 90% of where Vladimir's playmaking ability comes from; baiting out abilities, tower diving, dodging or simply soaking up health and providing a not-bad AoE slow for his teammates. Untargetability is a powerful tool in this game; though not as relatively strong as it once may have been due to all the accessible untargetability (TahmKench Bard Kalista Ekko and anti-death Kindred ) that has been recently added. I like this ability, I like it very much and I feel that it's the closest thing Vladimir has to significant decisions (since Q and E are on a negligible cooldown once your first couple of items are done). I hope that some iteration of this ability - the ability that some would argue is the most iconic part of Vladimir - remains. On a side note; this is part of his Juggernaut-Mage-y-ness, as he can spam EQ in fights then drop into Pool when it gets hairy for him and slurp up some health back before re-entering the fray. Think of it like a item 3053 for a Mage, but on an ability.

  • Damage Amplification, Noxian %HP True Damage. The sub-title is in reference to the fact that (off the top of my head, if I'm wrong please, please correct me) only Noxian Champions seem to have direct %HP damage amps (Vladimir Swain andTalon ) - and I feel it should be a counter to the theme that all %HP true damage in the game is Demacian (Garen Vayne andFiora ). Other than the fact that by design, Vladimir's ultimate would better suit a burst mage with a high-damage basic skill rotation, %HP damage amp would be excellent on sustained damage Champions. Remember that Deathfire Grasp was originally conceived to help kill tanks with the %damage amp (then it was abused to burst squishies even harder), and the implementation of a damage amp on Swain (a decidedly sustained damage Champion) is both well done, and the only non-Ravenous Flock part of him that I want to remain in his update. Again, I want this to stay, but wouldnt be crushed if it were to go.

So, there it is, my personal feelings on the matter. I will attempt to compile the other cores of Vladimir that you all put forth below, along with my own:

  • Endless Sustain (beatable in burst, unbeatable in drawn-out battles)
  • Juggernaut-Mage/Mage-Tank
  • Sanguine Pool
  • %Damage Amplification
  • AoE Damage - thanks Voluug13
  • Health as a Resource - thanks TheSlogs (at the moment, his health costs are ignorable once you get Spell Vamp, this should change, especially in the early game)
  • An idea suggested by Narasimha; Vlad's damage and stats scale with his current health, with more making him stronger and less making him weaker.
  • PickleBabah - Make his laning less dull ("dead farm lanes") and more interactive.
  • Fateborn's Blood Sphere - a item 3072 -esque shield that grants Vladimir up to 1000 hp if he keeps it topped up, replacing the free stats of Crimson Pact with battle-earned ones.
  • Targeted Abilities/Reliability in the Skillshot/Bullet-Hell of Midlane - thanks VaynexVlad OTP!
  • Retain Mechanical Simplicity and ultimate lategame power, paid for by an absolutely awful earlygame - thanks BiscuitWitch

I look forward to your contributions Velkoz , and let the rivers run red.

55 Comments

Erockandroll5 votes

For me, it's mainly the Juggermage concept. While he largely lacks CC and range, he makes up for with his Sustain and high health. In some respects, I wished he had better Health scaling, allowing tankier builds to be effective.

BiscuitWitch3 votes

I'm really sad that they're reworking Vlad. I'm that kind of Vlad. The kind that if I get an early advantage, I'm going to freeze the wave at my turret, and I'm going to make you fight and bleed for every last CS. I love oppressing my lanemate. I want to make him feel like I'm unfair. I want to grind my opponents out of lane with my free, ranged, non-minion aggroing q. To be undivable because pool. I want to get stomped until level 9. I want to fight for every CS against early game bullies like Pantheon. But I also love how mechanically simple he is. I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't want a big, flashy #LCSBIGPLAYMAKER like all the new/reworked champions are becoming. I actually like old GP. He was definitely weaker than he is now, but it was fun. I'm all for complicated champions with minigames and little interactions, but now, those are all the champions. Illaoi tentacles, Kindred marks, Azir sand soldiers, Kalista's unque autos, Gnar rage bar, Fiora vitals, GP barrels, etc. I want some champions who have 4 abilities, with one action tied to each ability. Vlad has a simple kit. Point and click sustain heal q, instant cast untargetabilty w, aoe 'ramp up' e, and aoe damage amp r. He's comparable to old GP and old Fiora. Both were very linear champions. Classic Bankplank with avarice blade who would just farm up to lategame and would 'kek get oneshot by my q', and fiora who with ravenous hydra would do an amped-up alphastrike-esque ult with massive AOE damage from hydra procing. They were more simple to play, and I appreciated that.

What I'm going to miss most, is VLAD. I disliked the reworks of GP and Fiora mostly because I couldn't play them anymore. GP retained some of 'GP-nesss' - his oranges, parrrley, and global cannon ult, but I miss his old simplicity without the extra barrels. Fiora is practically another champion. Q went from a 2 charge gapcloser to a skillshot, riposte from blocking the next auto to blocking everything, and her attackspeed steroid into a 1-2 punch slow/crit thing. Her ult is nowhere near the same, except perhaps that both are big teamfight ults, while also retaining their 'good for an old-fashioned 1v1' status. What makes me most unhappy about reworks is that champions die. I'm fine with little 'changes' like with Veigar. Turning his q into a semi-piercing skillshot from a point-and-click? Yeah! Making cage delayed? I can live with that. But I'll never be able to play old Fiora, who could be terrifying if she was ahead, but terrible if behind. I can't play GP like old GP where you try to get fat cash by lasthitting with your q, and your passive being a dot/slow. What I'm most afraid of is that Vlad is only going to have passing resemblances of his past self. 'Look at this new Vlad! He's a tanky mage with sustain!', but end up like the old Fiora rework where there are too many bells and whistles going on. Like 'If Vlad auto's an enemy champion 3 times, the next q he uses will heal himself and ally champions in a 500 radius!'. I love Vlad's simplicity, most of all, and I fear that that will be the least likely thing to survive of him from this rework.

TL;DR - Vlad is mechanically simple for this baddie, and this baddie likes mechanically simple things. Also, this guy would prefer that Riot just fkin releases reworks as new champions, and keeps the old champions around.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

AFAIK, old GP's problem was that his kit was very linear and possessed too much hidden power (P and E) for Riot's taste. Old Fiora was just a "my stats are higher than yours" (though she's the same now, just "my kit is more overloaded than yours"). I'm with you 100% on keeping mechanically simple champions mechanically simple, but I'm sure you can understand some of the reasons behind Riot's decisions.

Because of the scale of the these types of class-wide changes (see Jugger and Marksman), I don't think he'll become too mechanically overloaded (if at all). The most significant changes to occur between those two classes I'd say were Graves (Passive reload shtick and Q bounce-back) and Skarner (and his case is more macro on your spires than micro on your mechanics). Hell, Kog'Maw even got simplified and is now a W bot. Mordekaiser functions differently, but can still be played by a shoe with good go-in, get-out instincts (pls don't kill me Malicious Senpai), Darius still requires the brain-function of a toddler to play, Quinn is just as hard to play as she was pre-rework, MF is the same.

If you ask me, we don't have too much to fear, since this isnt a 1-champ update with larger resources like the aforementioned GP and Fiora. Again, I 100% agree with you on keeping him simple.

BiscuitWitch2 votes

I also love his laning. If Vlad gets an advantage - buckle up. It's gonna be a rough ride. Every time you come up to CS you're gonna lose a 1/4 of your health. I hope you brought health pots. I also love how weak he is in his laning phase. How you have to struggle to survive against Pantheon or Darius. Somewhat reminiscent of 'you might be laughing now, but in twenty minutes I'm gonna come back and beat your ass.' vibe. The problem is that Riot has shown to dislike these sort of champions. They don't like oppressive champions, and Vlad easily can be with his sustain. He's my comfort pick in top (and much better there than in mid, in my opinion), and I want to suffer in the early game. I want to be miserable in the early game so I can be strong in the late game. I don't want a 'meh-poor laning phase' into 'meh-good lategame'. I want to be knocking on the enemy inhib with flash/ghost, and I want to force 3 members to stop me, and I want to kite them to oblivion.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

I love that. I love losing two or three times and then suddenly having the tools to completely ruin the enemy through war of rapid attrition.

But Riot's not gonna let it stay, and if they do it's not by intent or design. I want to feel like Veigar feels, a wet condom full of holes in the early game, but so powerful in the late that getting hit by a single edge of Event Horizon means death. Vlad should feel like Mordekaiser; a raid boss of untold magical power.

Voluug132 votes

Sustain, AoE damage, and trollpool.

At least those are what define Vlad for me.

TheSlogs2 votes

Health as a resource, stealing the blood of enemies, and sanguine pool are his defining features imo. Although his passive is undeniably toxic, it's something I hope that can keep in some form in his new kit. Because I do like me some item 3027 item 3027 item 3027 item 3027 item 3027 item 3027 Vladimir

TheSlogs1 votes

Also a lack of real mobility is important I think. He shouldn't be some pool of blood flying around the map.

Over Innsmouth4 votes

One of my friends hates Vlad's laning safety (which is literally all he has at that point) and wants to "balance him" by making his Q a low-cd free dash that heals him for every unit he passes through.

Consider how ludicrous an idea that is.

Spizzle90001 votes

What. Okay so apparently he's too safe but you should give him a dash? Also it doesn't fit his identity as a tanky mage. At least in my head, I see Vladimir as more of his Blood Lord form, a large, intimidating beast of a man who eats away at his enemies and keeps moving to his destiny, slowly but surely. It has that beautiful "Kneel before Vlad," feeling like he truly is a force to be reckoned with; the feeling that you can run, you can hide, but when he gets to you eventually, there will be a price to pay. And the toll is blood.

Baron of Bread1 votes

If they made his Pool something like that it could be cool. It would probably be some kind of mix of his current pool with Shen's dash.

Vlad turns into a cloud of blood and drifts a short distance, draining the blood out of any unit he passes through.

It would fill a similar role in his kit as the pool, it grants him some time to wait off his cooldowns and gives him a bit of healing and damage. If they made the dash take ~2 seconds the only real difference would be trading the ability to change direction in the pool for the ability to cross walls.

Pretty sure I would prefer they just kept the pool though. Pretty sure...

Stand Alone Wolf1 votes

I have thought about it. Yasuo

Narasimha2 votes

The #1 thing is sustain through damage. He's not just passively topping himself off. He's drinking from the life of his enemies, driving them to death as he gains life. From this, #2 should be an interaction with his own health for strength. If he's full of blood, let him be the lord of all he surveys. If he starts getting lower, then his strength should wane appropriately. #3, and last but not least for my list, is a good amount of AOE. The more damage, the more life he can bring forth, the better. Why settle for exsanguinating one champion, when theres 5 to be had?

Over Innsmouth2 votes
  1. Absolutely. It reminds me of Mordekaiser's shield (Vlad's damage directly feeds into his health bar rather than his shield though), and Vlad and Morde have always been kindred spirits to me.
  2. Is a very interesting idea, but implementation might be hard. On the one hand, he might be so strong at full health it's impossible to get him lower than that, or on the other he's weak enough at full health that his health/power can be reduced and he just ends up weaker and weaker. It's possible, we would just need to find the fine line of balance. I'll be adding it to the list of ideas at the top.
  3. Has been mentioned several times, and I'm hoping personally that Riot agrees with the concept that part of Vlad's identity is his AoE.
TheOvermind2 votes

Not a vlad main but i feel like his current W is just there to say "No" when all in him and not much more( i mean yes you can use it with zhonias and pull out some nice tricks or use it to let's say dodge a powerful projectile like a veigar Ult.) He can still do all that but much more. Imo his w should allow him to travel to a target ( maybe even wards) while being invulnerable and emerging upon the target doing fizz style Aoe explosion dmg. Idk i just felt like sharing my idea.

Troll for Trump2 votes

A winning Vlad is stupid to fight against, he spams q, you can't outtrade him in small bursts, and he wins in extended with max E. Depending on how fed he is, he might be able to even 1v2. And farming is impossible.

When he's losing, he's even more useless than most champs, squishy, does 0 dmg.

Too feast or famine. Kinda like old darius

Over Innsmouth3 votes

The factor about being behind and squishy is kind of why my build includes item 3116 item 3065 item 3742 no matter the situation. Even if you're 1/5, you can be useful as a tanky slow-bot. If you want someone truly useless when behind, look no further than Swain .

And yes, a winning Vlad is a nightmare with very few options to combat him without sending a 3-5 man goon squad to stop him. I hope Riot fixes this. I still want him to be a one-man-army lategame that with properly play, kiting and use of his pool can effectively defeat a group of people, but not as binary as it is now with EQ spam.

Malicious Metal3 votes

So you want a ranged Mordekaiser? :^)

Over Innsmouth4 votes

With more red, less metal, and none of that juggernaut patch/post-patch fuckery you and the other Iron mains had to deal with.

On another note; how does our resident Revenant feel about my post, and the collective of Vlad opinions thus far?

Mordekai Senpai1 votes

SKIP THIS PARAGRAPH TO SPARE THE DRAMA You understand my pain :D, after (through silent tears) being forced to part from my beloved Mordekaiser who I will likely never see again, left with little but memories of all he could do (lets be real, there are few things more satisfying than ulting a rengar, then perfectly manoeuvring myself while keeping track of every enemy champion, and earning a quadra kill through the use of rengars passive as a ghost in the jungle. (but really, the greatest thing about Mordekaiser was large mid range damage and using your ghost so well that anyone watching it could forget that it was not just two people in perfect sync.)) since then I have been playing different champions such as swain and cassiopiea trying to find the right person, and although vladimir is solidly different, he has an overall general similar vibe, build, and playstyle. And I am quite happily suprised to find that i was not the only mordekaiser main that flocked to vladimir.

Now, down to business! I am quite a savvy Vladimir main who, could probably not be bothered putting in any effort if I were not to go the full way expecting a reply (no pressure, huehuehue <3) As far as Vladimir's play style, I am quite surprised that although people talk about champions having a number of play styles, they seldom get into detail on each one and what they mean to the people who play them, as it is not just a spectrum of damage to tank, or how much mobility is built, or how ever it is generally put; but more of a complex system made by overlapping a number of spectrum's. A good example of what i'm trying to say is the spectrum of tankyness a Vladimir builds (ranging from assassin, who relies on passive for a more healthy balance, and nearly full tank Vladimir (lets face it, they all buy spell vamp which is a damage item) who again relies on passive for a more healthy balance) Each level affects how you act when fighting and strategising depending on what you intend to do, e.g. For a Vladimir who greatly prefers to initiate by jumping into the enemy team and getting off a 4 man ult plus aoe damage, how he/she acts with the supposedly same play style (initiator) would be completely different from how another might act due to the overlapping of spectrum. This may be shown by, a damage heavy initiating vlad would hop in, use abilities as quickly as possible, but focus on the carries above all else and after a moment of bursting would most likely pool or zhonyas to avoid being slaughtered. Meanwhile a more tank focused Vladimir would be likely to build some cc (such as rylais or randiuns) and focus to hit as many targest as possible almost regardless of who they are. (though lets be honest, if your options are ult the braum shen and mundo, or ult the azir and vayne, you will choose the hyper carries no matter who you are, unless who you are is someone either stuck in bronze, or facing a tank vayne and assassin mundo) After that a tank vladimir would be much more likely to put off pooling as long as safely possible to soak up damage and distract for your team, as a random vladimir between you and your carry is very distracting for a support. On top of these differences which were only small at first but would keep building up through the ripple effect for completely different effects on the fight, before any of this took place, when and which each vladimir could safely initiate and what they were looking for to do so was completely different. damage vlad was paying attention to any enemy carries being alone, or visible and close enough that if their team was not going to follow, or it was not a good idea for them to follow, he/she would be able to back off with minimal losses, since assassins have much less health to spare when messing up. Meanwhile tank vlad has been looking to direct the team more with situations that let her/him ult as many people as possible, and being able to make much more gutsy moves, as the cc and health/mr/armor would allow their team to notice and follow up on sudden but calculated moves.

Where does that leave thoughts on effects with vladimir? Well obviously there are going to be some styles less viable and some styles more so, but I think its important to take note of what is more popular, viable, and definitely iconic now. Although there are as many ways to go about playing vladimir as there are leaves on a small tree (no one really cares but tree fanatics go nuts on counting them for some reason) it would make sense to focus on just the general 90% (as for the other 10% well, nut jobs. gotta love them, except when they are able to make decisions on things that affect you.)

Basically I am pretty sure that the 90% of people agree on keeping certain catagories intact to be re explored after the changes. Most of the damage to tank spectrum, Initiation to safe mage, and mobility to immobile(dont take that one the wrong way, i dont mean add in dashes or anything like that, I mean the vladimirs who will take ghost plus flash, then go for applicable masteries and high speed boots/enchantment to keep moving as much as possible through a fight, vs a vladimir who goes for power above movement) (if I forgot any important spectrum's then I apologize and will add them as soon as noticed)

With all that aside, I quite agree with keeping Q, ult and passive mainly intact, but worry about what changes may be brought about with good intentions. The main things that come to mind is when I see things such as true % damage mentioned I am looking at the negative impact it would have on bursting carries after balancing is done, which seems to be the blood lords main prey of choice, and when more health cost more power is mentioned (which I agree completely with) but how this is actually accomplished may be just as predictable but too easy to take advantage of from both sides of the table, leaving a kit which feels far too powerful against those who don't know about it, but easily made useless by others who have seen it many times, (which would in turn make it extremely powerful at release then after enough drama to make a soap opera or two leave vladimir nerfed into the ground and forgotten like Mordekaiser (rip morde, he was numero uno))

All in all, since changes are like budget balancing or in a more simple example, when you squeeze a squishy and watch one part suddenly bulge as other parts shrink, I feel (and stop me if I am wrong but I think most people who go over the entire picture would agree) like a suggestion and or idea is only really complete once the power increase is paired with a power decrease and in what way that change is supposed to effect which playstyles. And, although I made my previous explanations possibly much more complicated than needed, i wanted to make sure we were on the same page at every turn with examples to lay out my entire point, rather than make assumptions and cause confusion, the suggested format would not specifically be very complicated.

A random idea which I have not put much thought into, but is just to display what i put above, may look like this.

If the e was changed from doing damage with a flat health cost, ramping up the damage and healing with each stack, it cost a % of max health and did a large percent of the cost (and possibly some ap scaling) in an aoe with similar size and speed of the current E, but instead of stacking up would add damage to all his abilities based on damage done, and add healing based on health used, for a small amount of time.(though i seriously suggest reducing or removing how much the healing from E affects the following E's, if not then the balancing would leave you with basically the same ability with different methods of execution.) you could also swap it so more damage done meant more healing, and more health cost gives more damage, if the health cost gives more damage that will provide vladimirs with more hp, more ways to damage and damage vlads with more sustain, if its reversed then hp vlad will sustain more and damage vlad will damage more. I think if its balanced properly it can retain vladimirs identity of sacrificing health for more healing and damage, and void aatrox's desperation to stay in battle and olaf's masochistic desire to get himself low health.

Ok, that was a horrible example of not being complicated, but I hope you get what I mean because at this rate i'm going to blend in with wikipedia.

Thanks for taking the effort to read this, and if you just happened to notice this at the bottom then go away, your cheating, you have not earned this thanks! Looking forward to your reply untitled king, I hope this makes as much sense as it did when I was writing it!

Troll for Trump1 votes

Why get Dman's the passive only works if you are melee...

Over Innsmouth2 votes

You still get the MS, so you can be the speediest puddle. By the time you get Deadmans, AA'ing to clear waves is a thing of the past.

DemonHunterIX1 votes

Had to log in to upvote this for the speediest puddle bit.

WitchQueen Annie2 votes

Vladimir is my most-played champion and for months in the past I played nothing but Vladimir (though nowadays I tend to use Annie and MF in Ranked).

You mentioned most of the defining features... Endless sustain, No Mana, AOE damage, the iconic pool.

Personally, I think its very important that his kit remains consistent and reliable (and that means no skill shots for his basic abilities). E is actually very important for last-hitting early on if you time it situationally to last hit while controlling the wave and keeping an eye on your health. I'm quite worried that they'll change E so that it's less useful in farming.

One thing I've noticed people did not mention is spell-based DPS. Maybe its just my playing style with him; I build full AP glass cannon after WOTA with him with the occasional early item 3116 rush when I'm ahead or when I'm sensing that CC could make a difference. I rely on positioning, sustain and the emergency Pool to stay alive while kiting most enemies from the front-line (only selectively going in with an Ultimate initiate).

Essentially I play him like an ADC in team fights except he fights with spells and has greater survivability. Hence for me, a defining feature of Vladimir's feel is that dance at the frontline. Moving forward and back while firing his AOE Mana-less targeted spells. The consistency of the damage and the sustain as well as its AOE and non-skill shot aspects to create a DPS tempo is essential for me.

I feel like this is the main reason to pick Vladimir instead of say Ahri or Lux. The targeted aspect combined with the high damage over time. I think of Vlad as a DPS mage as opposed to a burst mage (even though he DOES have a burst option, its not the go to option unless there is a clear opening). Vlad's high damage is balanced out by his short-range.

My biggest concern is when Riot says they want to introduce ''counterplay'' to his kit. To me that just spells NERF.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Here's my 2 cents; I'm by no means a main but I still occasionally like to play him for a change of pace. So take my advice more as observations than actual experience. I'll suggest minor changes/buffs/nerfs like garen & darius; not drastic overhauls like mordekaiser & skarner.

An amusingly enjoyable champion that's often forgotten among a dozen others. Like swain & cassiopeia he's not meant to detonate his opponent suddenly, however he thrives on outlasting his opposition by being underestimated. Unlike them he tends to draw hate because he's hard to kill; news flash, the game isn't a death match, you win by destroying structures. Surviving fights is fun and exciting, which is part of why some players main nothing but tanks, swain & vladimir I'd put into this field since they have a similar mindset despite different playstyles. He's a mage tank, relying entirely on sustain, both in damage and in healing; this should be his focus point. Unlike the other two mages I'm reviewing, he's been around for quite some time, added in a time when lore had impact for playstyle; so while not being flashy or sudden, his abilities make sense thematically and are rather fair in gameplay. Like zac, mundo, and mordekaiser, he scarifies health for his abilities; an amusing note is that they cannot kill themselves with their powers, they'll remain at 1hp. His passive (Crimson Pact) is simply a stat bonus, gain bonus health based on his ability power, and vice-a-versa; but doesn't stack with itself for obvious reasons. Sure it's dull since it's merely a buff, but not overlooked or unwelcome; it gives him some flexibility, he can go as on annoying off-tank and still have a little damage, or run full offense while not worrying about being 1-hit, usually. While a slight buff here would be nice, it's not unnoticeable or overbearing. His Q (Transfusion) is one of the few point & click abilities left on old champions (as recent champions have them while older reworked ones don't for double standards), it's a little damage and a little healing without cost, having both small base values and scaling for both halves of the ability. However the healing portion is delayed ~1 second, so there's still an opportunity to kill him there, along with it's cooldown and short range (for a mage). These trade-offs make it fair enough without being painful to deal with, while still feeling useful to himself. I'd suggest scaling up only 1 of the 4 variables, either a base value or scaling value, on either the damage or healing; nothing huge just enough to make it noticeable, but a minor health cost or slightly longer cooldown. Perhaps give it some kind of bleed effect (like darius but not stacking) instead of just buffing one of it's values would make it more interesting; but again I'd suggest a minor health cost added on for such a strong effect. His W (Sanguine Pool) is probably his most iconic ability, as it makes him nearly untouchable for a couple seconds (targeted channels still hit him) like fizz; but unlike fizz his is more fair. Fizz is an assassin that has passive damage reduction against auto-attacks and ignores unit collision, but his pole ability gives him the ability to jump walls while doing massive damage despite leaving himself nigh invulnerable (low risk/high reward). Vladimir has no natural damage reduction and can clip on any unit just like most everyone else, he can't 100->0 someone in less than a second like fizz (unless the enemy is doing something stupid, like not buying items); vladimir's pool doesn't allow him to cross walls either, nor does it do immense damage. 'But he can become intangible at will' I hear people cry, yeah along with any other mage or magic assassin that buys zhonya hourglass, and they'll abuse it much more than he can. Why? His cost's him 1/5 of his current HP. Fizz's barely costs any mana & is on a much shorter cooldown (5 seconds compared to vlad's 10seconds), hourglass just has a minute long cooldown, but vlad's is detrimental to himself by sacrificing his own survivability! Yeah it could keep him from being crowd controlled, but he probably just hurt himself more than the ability he dodged would've; and like flash, enemies will engage harder knowing it's on cooldown and that he's injured. A thing to note that most people don't know is that it's also his ONLY cc, a painfully short ranged weak AOE slow, so if he wants to try pinning someone down, he has to go all in. This is one of his defining abilities, a core power that's more balanced than the majority of the recent reworks. Though I liked the original animation more, I wouldn't suggest any changes to this, other than showing how much healing he gained from it; like how braum & maokai get to see how much damage they're nullifying. His E (Tides of Blood) is a medium ranged area of effect duel purpose power; low cooldown but high cost too. Each time he uses this, it deals more damage but costs more health; also increases all healing effects on himself by a percentage, like a weak spirit visage passive. Like sona's Q, it's auto-targets anyone within range, but barely as much damage even if fully stacked; this is often his late game farming ability, since he suffers damage for it he probably doesn't want to be spamming this near an enemy until he has some items. Honestly this one feels the weakest; sure it can chunk some enemies when fully stacked but it's health cost isn't negligible, the self-healing amplification also often goes unnoticed (perhaps if it had some kind of notation or counter), and the brief cast time can interrupt him long enough to be cc-ed or otherwise hit in a teamfight. This is the ability I'd suggest replacing. Now his R (Hemoplague) is also a curious case; and area of effect ultimate that ONLY has delayed damage, but makes effected enemies more vulnerable to all damage (by 12%) until it deals it's damage. This ability while appearing pointless is the one I'd say gives him any presence in teamfights, the subtle debuff can sway teamfights if your allies capitalize on it, but has a decently short cooldown that it shouldn't be too much of a problem if they don't. Like velkoz I don't see anything wrong with it, just need some quality of life buff; like vision on effected enemies or something, perhaps this should have the bleed effect I mentioned earlier? I don't think both his Q and ult need a bleed bonus though, only one or the other if either. His raw survivability should be annoying enough, whether it be regenerating or vampirism, he's playstyle should be to out-sustain his enemies.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Good points, if a little hard to read :P

Thanks for your thoughts, it's always good to get perspectives from different perspectives; main or not. Btw, on a 45% cdr Vladimir build (15% runes/masteries, 10% boots, 10% SV, 10% WotA) pool has a 7.7 cd, and two of those seconds are spent in pool. Granted, you max it last (unlike Fizz who can max E first and his damage won't suffer).

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Yeah I was about a sentence away from the character limit, so I couldn't do much for formatting. That and I'm more of an engineer than linguist XD Granted, but in practice I find building him full cdr hurts his survivability for fights; because he has lackluster damage and health. However I also might not be playing him well either so I'm probably missing something. But fizz needs a rework since his existence is an obvious double standard; they nerf tanks for having damage, but let assassins run around with more defense than tanks? Anyway thanks for reading it.

PickleBabah1 votes

Curious about what Vlad mains think about making lanes "dead farming lanes"?

Over Innsmouth4 votes

Personally, I enjoy lanes with interaction (like Azir Gangplank Jhin ), but I also enjoy "dead farm lanes" in the sense that it's a means to an end, and that end is outscaling and destroying my foes (Veigar Nasus ). There's an art to surviving lane to rule the lategame.

I'm all for giving Vlad interaction in lane, particularly based around his sustain (Zac is amazing for this with his blobs). The issue with Vlad's laning is that it suddenly turns from dead-farm to outsustaining anyone that hasnt beaten him into uselessness at around level 9/WotA + CDR boots.

Want me to add "make Vlad's laning less dull" as a suggestion?

PickleBabah1 votes

Sure. Coming from someone who hasn't enjoyed enough Vladimir to say that I'm a main, I feel that his laning phase shouldn't be as safe and yet still be very effective later (though still safe enough to turtle). I also think what you said with WoTa + CDR is pretty much true. I think in general he just needs more interaction.

Spizzle90001 votes

It's definitely the eternal sustain which really brings out the whole vampire fantasy of Vladimir (yeah I know he's not a vampire). His Q must not become a skillshot. You aren't throwing out some kind of device that drains blood; you're simply ripping the blood by thinking that you want to do that to your foe. His Q must remain as it is.

His W also is a necessary aspect of his kit. Don't change it Riot.

His E, well, while I do value his AoE damage and the damage amp/healing amp but cost increase that emphasizes that he grows stronger as the battle rages on, I do think if there's anything Riot will change, it should be this or his ultimate. If they love skillshots so much, they can change his E into a skillshot of some sort and give him a Blood Well kind of like Aatrox's, but have a function closer to a Fury bar where it empowers his abilities. His Q could increase the resource (which I imagine would be blood).

His ultimate, while I love the idea that as a blood mage, Vladimir basically gives you AIDs, I feel like it could be changed potentially. Perhaps it could become a morph of Morgana's ultimate and Fiddlestick's Drain where he drains the health of all enemy champions near him and slows them down or something, although I feel like he should still be able to move. It would also increase his resource bar as well.

His passive needs to stay. It really emphasizes that tanky mage feeling that he has, which no one else possess quite like him. It allows him to build full damage but still be tanky a bit, which is necessary as he needs to be right in the middle of the battle to do damage.

Edit: Also the tanky but not super tanky in terms of health or whatever, but mostly tanky due to some health and a lot of sustain is also super important. The idea that he can be bursted, but if you can't, you will die, is essential. The damage mixed with the hidden tankiness is part of what makes him so damn fun.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

The thing is, his Q is what Riot have the most issue with in his kit. You can't dodge it if you're in range, it costs nothing to cast and it has a very short cd during mid-lategame.

If anything's going to change I imagine, it'll be that.

That's why I emphasized sustain in general (specifically continuous, endless sustain) rather than only his Q. He should definitely have a primary sustain tool post-rework as he does pre-rework, but with the way his Q is now, it's toxic - even if thematically perfect. I'm with you in that he has to have a primary self-heal tool and it has to be above all things: reliable, but his current Q is archaic.

There should only be two types of people that can kill Vladimir lategame. High DPS monsters that can hurt him faster than his CD's can heal him (MasterYi , high-damage ADC's like Draven and Jhin , Swain - provided he doesnt go OoM) or groups.

Your idea for his ultimate seems well-intentioned, but honestly a little...broken. That is the ultimate zoning tool, like Illaoi without having to press W. What if it was more like you cast a large, Illaoi-ult-sized zone and anyone in the field gets afflicted with your slow+drain debuff, which is stronger the closer Vlad is to them?

Personally, I want his damage amp to stay in some form, since the AIDs thematic is perfect for a blood mage.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

On the flipside, riot is lying to our faces with double standards; ekko & talon have the same problem, you can't escape them if you're in range of their targeted gap-closer that deals high damage. At least vlad isn't instakilling people with his; personally I'd say riot can complain to their toasters instead of ruining another champion.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Ekko's is telegraphed by the dash half and shorter range (MUCH shorter than Talon's), and Riot's said that they're planning on looking at Talon (possibly in the potential Assassin Update that might happen end-year).

I'll admit that Riot's full of double standards (if they remove Vlad passive while keeping Tahm R passive - the idea of hp -> damage - it'll be a slap in my face), but they're doing a few things to plug those flaws.

Spizzle90001 votes

Ugh. Okay I'm thoroughly bummed now. While I may not be a professional, I can't think of a single thing that makes sense for his Q other than that. Like, maybe just copy+pasting Fiddle's Drain, but that's lazy and dumb. I have this feeling that Vlad will end up like Mordekaiser, albeit not forced into a lane that he makes no sense in. I get his Q is toxic, but I would much rather have toxic abilities than something that makes no sense on him, such as a skillshot for sustain.

I agree that only a few types of champions should be able to kill him alone, but the problem is then I feel it's likely Riot will butcher him and turn him into some kind of AP juggernaut where you build straight health and like one AP item that also gives defensive stats.

Yeah, now that I think about it that ultimate is absolutely ridiculous. I love the AIDs thing he has going on, but it just doesn't feel like a really strong ability. Yes, it is one of the most useful abilities in a teamfight, but it doesn't really have a satisfying feeling compared to like Darius's or Garen's ultimate. That might just be me though.

I do think that Riot should give you the option to refund champions/skins for champions when they make relatively large changes to them though. Like, I get they're a private company and aren't bound by any rules to do this or whatever, but it would be very kind of them to give you the option to refund things for a champion which is no longer the same champion that you once enjoyed playing, ya know? Or at least partial refunds. Because I know that if they screw up Vlad I'll be fucking pissed cause I've blown ~$25 on skins for him (yeah I know that's not a ton of money but I'm not old enough to get a job quite yet).

Over Innsmouth2 votes

I'm with you, but Riot does as Riot does. With enough community backing, I reckon we could get our Reaper into a good place even if Riot want to butcher him, just look at all the progress Malicious and the other Morde mains made.

Spizzle90001 votes

Potentially, but Mordekaiser still isn't the Mordekaiser we all knew and loved. I'm really quite worried about what Riot will do to him. Like, without Vladimir, I'm pretty sure I'll just quit. I'm not saying that like the people in the threads that are like, "RITO ZED SO OP IM DOEN WIT THSI CRAP!" it's more of he's my favorite champion and the only champion that I consistently play and frequently. For some odd reason I haven't really played Zed at all of late even though he's not always banned and is super spooky.

Mordekai Senpai1 votes

I disagree with making his Q not a point and click, if things were made better by blindly making them harder to use, then at some point you should stop pretending its about making use of his kit, and install in our computers something that would randomly smack us when we try to ult instead of bland and pointless difficulty added. Its not that we want a brain dead champion, its that when a kit is more simple it means you need to focus on other areas such as positioning to make proper use of that champion. :D

Edit: now that i think about it, that would be a pretty magical addition, all on board for adding this to teemo's kit?

Xeynid1 votes

Endless Sustain, at least in terms of constantly healing yourself, is a big no-no by riot's standards. It'll probably end up turning into a Blood Shield.

Actually, it'd be kind of cool if Tides of Blood was replaced with a "Blood Tempest" type thing, where your Q grants you a shield of some kind that does AoE damage to anyone near you.

La Barbotte1 votes

spamming in all chat : RAINING BLOOOOOOOOOOD FROM A LACERATED SKY !!!!!!!!!!!

Fateborn1 votes

I created a new kit for Vladimir a month ago hoping to pitch in my idea, and since you brought up good points, I'd like to see your thought on it. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/0hGgYAPE-vladimir-the-crimson-reaper-relaunch-idea

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Of all the things I saw, the Blood Sphere intrigues me the most. I actually think that might be the most balanced and interesting way that Crimson Pact can remain without being toxic, free stats. I'm someone who believe that Vlad's deadliness should ramp up with how long he spends in combat, so the longer he spends charging up this shield/health, the stronger he should be for it.

I'm going to add it to the list of things we love/suggestions up top. Tell me if you want me to take it down.

Fateborn1 votes

By all means keep it! I'm happy to know part of my idea is good to discuss upon.

Desiderium1 votes

What I enjoy about Vladimir:

Stacking as much spellvamp as I can. Seriously. Wota, then a Hextech Gunblade, then after that I get a Revolver, then after that I get Spirit Visage. Because why the fuck would you not stack Spellvamp on a VAMPire? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Basically, I just LOVE getting into the absolute thick of the fight as Vlad, and drain-tanking while still dealing decent AoE damage.

When I pick Vladimir, my fantasy is to get as much spellvamp as possible, and survive the middle of a teamfight for as long as possible by taking life away from the enemy team. Basically, an AP version of Aatrox, except actually successful (unlike Aatrox.)

Venedictos1 votes

The Blood Sphere thing sounds totally awesome. Maybe it could be part of WotA effects should they rework it?

thumbnail91 votes

Clearly what defines vlad is the fact you have to pray to god that the enemy team doesn't end the game before 35 minutes so you can actually play your champion.

Strong PvE interaction feels like you're grinding for end game in an MMO.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

Nah, PvP begins at item 3152 item 3158 . Well, of a sorts at least.

Brâin1 votes

I was wondering if they could make his E look more interesting like maybe make the waves look like tiny blades or maybe just swords in general for either whole thing or his blood lord maybe a scythe for soul stealer

Battleguppy1 votes

If the Vladimir changes are going in the Vampire direction then change his Q ability to a ranged pounce that drains the life of its victims that would be a neat possibility and make his kit a bit more offensive yet still allowing the tankiness that he has with the rest of his kit. Also, it allows Vladimir to be an engaging champion making his laning phase WAY more exciting.

I'm not a vladimain but I respect a good Vladimir player so I hope you like my input on this thread :)

 -The ![Viktor](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Viktor.png)  Main
SLAG8091 votes

For me, selfishly, I would want him to keep his "Q" and some form of healing amplification in his kit. Personally I see his pool and ultimate as niche abilities and so, would not kill me to no longer see them in the rework.

His sustain is not really the problem. Theres already a summoner spell, "AD" item (mortal reminder), and "AP" item (morellonomicon) that guts his sustain. I find a 100crit Yasuo with bloodthirster's sustain more ridiculous than Vlad's.

Without his sustain Vlad would be considered a very redundant pick as there is not much unique qualities left that sets him off from the other champions.

But, all of this is from a strictly biased viewpoint and as such should be regarded as only my oppinion (not yours). No more, no less.

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