Hey Riot, if you're still dishing out Vlad nerfs...

Over Innsmouth··17 votes·1,028 views

Does that mean the work you did during the MYMU wasnt satisfactory in balancing him and you'll need to take a closer look at him again somewhere down the line?

As someone who's mained him since I started the game, I've always thought Vlad needs work. His core theme of health costs and health costless sustain kind of prevents him from achieving "true balance", but that's who he is and his identity takes precedence over his health as a gameplay element. He'll always be a little bit of a bitch to deal with, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt work together to remove as much toxicity from his kit as possible. The MYMU honestly looked really promising for him - since it was more of a "how can we make Vlad less obnoxious to play against" than a "how can we further explore Vlad's identity" like it was with others such as Malzahar and Vel'Koz.

I guess the point of this post is this; are you guys over at Riot considering moving Vlad into the same position as post-Juggernaut Mordekaiser - where he's going to be looked at for an individual update later down the line - or are you going to do to him what you did pre-MYMU and just nerf him into the ground until he doesnt even need to pool anymore to avoid taking hits - because he'll be a liability to his team.

Regardless of whether he's my main or not, that's a shitty thing to do to a Champion just because they're a pain to balance. I understand you nerfing old Poppy or old Yorick into the ground because a) they were confirmed for big reworks all along and b) they were infinitely more toxic to play against than old Vlad or new Vlad ever were, but nerfing a Champion just because they're a pain to balance and leaving them in that state is...not the type of future players and Rioters should be striving for.

So, to ask my question again, if you're still dishing out Vlad nerfs does that mean you have greater, future plans for him - or are you going to leave him in the gutter until some change to itemization makes him relevant and toxic as all hell again?

Humbly Yours, Tides of Blood

20 Comments

Evewynn12 votes

I think it's weird how they're nerfing his most balanced ability, and the one that is the least impactful early game. Like ,I couldn't afford to spam it anyways...

Blood Magicks1 votes

My inner Vlad main might be overreacting here, but the PBE changes feel like murder rather than like a nerf, and I was ok with everything done so far.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I know right? Trying to use it early game against most match-ups feels suicidal.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

My username may not look it, but fellow Vlad main here agrees.

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bPXxchE4,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-08-23T23:54:28.770+0000)

My username may not look it, but fellow Vlad main here agrees.

RIVERS OF BLOOD

Veltox2 votes

LOVELY..people bitch about his sustain and sinergy with hp when item 3033 item 3153 item 3165 item 3151 exist.

Marshbouy1 votes

IMO he just kinda sucks as a design a mage draintank that deals AOE damage and literally drains health from enemies. I just find it hard for them to balance him without a big rework...

Seenan1 votes

Balance him the easy way; delete him.

/preparefordownvotes

WoonStruck1 votes

Do you remember me saying that Vlad will always be an issue as long as he has his current ultimate and isn't a support champ?

You can't be an AoE damage carry and have an ultimate like that. It makes him too strong when he's powerful, and still worth picking when he's not, forcing Riot to make him weak as hell so that he's only worth his ult, competitively.

Over Innsmouth3 votes

Vaguely, yes. Although memory is not my forte.

They've tweaked his ultimate to be more selfish though, what with the self-heal pops. If they just stripped off the damage amp and buffed the damage and the pop-heals, I think it'd suit his role better as a Drain-Tank Mage.

As far as I can tell though, people mostly complain about Crimson Rush when they talk about Vlad (nevermind that it introduced a far healthier gameplay pattern than before which was just endless E-Qing with Spell Vamp negating any and all costs). "Wah wah heals for half his health on one spell".

Anyway, you're kinda right, but at the same time I really, really don't want Vladimir to become a support Champ, and I personally think he needs a full level rework given how old his kit still feels post-MYMU (though the new particles on E still feel juicy).

WoonStruck1 votes

They did make it more selfish, but the bonus damage should be changed to ONLY apply to Vlad (if at all...though he should get some benefit off of it), then buff the heal/damage, possibly duration (so he can get at least 2 casts of Q+E off).

People complain about Crimson Rush because its on a targeted ability and they don't want to pay attention to windows of power. You don't see people complaining about Vault on Quinn, when she's more cancer than Vlad's ever been, outside of double wota meta.


I wasn't saying I want Vlad to be a support. I was simply stating that his ult, as a team-wide buff, cannot be healthy on someone who's intent is to be tanky and highly damaging.


Personally, I would love a total rework if only to make his cast animations/delays feel more smooth...

Over Innsmouth2 votes

Man fuck Quinn. I havent played League in more than three months and I still hate Quinn. She's not just unfun to play against, she's actually badly designed.

Anyway.

Vlad's ult is more or less what gives him the most teamfight presence now though, since Tides of Blood can be body blocked by tanks to prevent squishies taking damage. It's not like it's thematically unfitting to inflict a blood-based pathogen that increases damage taken too.

The thing is, I honestly can't see why Riot is still nerfing him, so I can't really think of what needs to go. If it's just a case of "we don't want certain Champs to be played in Worlds because they don't have the approved amount of mobility" then that's understandable. It's bullshit, but understandable.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

I hate Vlad because he wins DPS fights and doesn't die to burst. ADCs are countered by burst so they can't deal their sustained damage, Juggernauts are are melee and are easily kited so they can't do their damage. Vlad is an unholy combination of both.

Vlad is A) Ranged, so he doesn't suffer nearly as much as a melee despite being moderately short ranged

B) Rylai's is so synergistic its disgusting. You don't get the option to run form Vlad without burning important CDs after he builds Rylai's.

C) Virtually resourceless. I despise Health costs because they often don't mean anything. Big whoop his E costs 2.5-10% of his Max HP, what does that matter when his Q just heals him back up. You have to constantly fight Vlad just so he doesn't get back up to full and mana based champions just can't handle that early when he's weak and he bullies out melees top.

D) Has such a huge teamfight presence with his ult, but cannot be dealt with 1v1 mid-late.

E) The only counter is Grevious Wounds where the only reliable source is Executioners and good luck having anyone who is AD build that on your team. Morello is worse because it requires the target to be 40% or less and you're not getting Vlad to 40% or less as an AP who builds Morello, aka burst mages most often.

I'll agree that he's moderately better than before with WotA, but relative to the of the champions, he's still pretty cancer.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

I hate Vlad because he wins DPS fights and doesn't die to burst.

So you hate Vlad because of what he's designed to be. That's fine, I hate Ekko because he was designed as a "utility assassin" (two words that should never be together). His job is to damage soak and drain-tank.

ADCs are countered by burst so they can't deal their sustained damage

...Yes, this is true, though I fail to see how this is relevant. You just said Vlad wins DPS fights. He's not a burst mage in any sense, he enjoys extended battles of attrition that he can outsustain. Vlad does not beat ADCs with his "burst" because he does not have burst.

Vlad gets outsustained by any ADC with a Bloodthirster. His only reliable heal (Crimson Rush) has a minimum CD of 6 seconds at its best point in the game, whereas ADC's can pump out Lifestealing AA's and crits more than six times as quickly.

Rylai's is so synergistic its disgusting. You don't get the option to run form Vlad without burning important CDs after he builds Rylai's.

Not really Vlad's fault, though I can see where you're coming from and personally agree that Rylai's passive needs a bit of a change at least.

Virtually resourceless. I despise Health costs because they often don't mean anything

Health cost Champions are designed differently from mana costs Champions, same for Energy and Resourceless. Of the 5 health-cost Champions (Aatrox DrMundo Vladimir Zac Mordekaiser ), none of them are burst-based, they're all short-ranged DPSers. Of them, three of them lack hard cc and mobility, and another one of them is total trash.

In regards to Vlad specifically, yeah, it's not meant to feel like he's killing himself with his own costs. His entire theme is based around self-sustaining, not slow suicide by abilities.

Has such a huge teamfight presence with his ult, but cannot be dealt with 1v1 mid-late.

He absolutely is not a be-all-end-all 1v1 monster in the mid-lategame. Any Champion with a moderate combination of AS, AD, and Lifesteal will beat him (aforementioned ADC's, Irelia and Jax, Master Yi, Yasuo, Tryndamere). His teamfight presence is nothing to speak of. He contributes less to a teamfight than the average support Champion, especially since landing any more than a 2-man Haemoplague gets increasingly difficult the better the enemy team is.

Grevious Wounds

Grevious Wounds as a whole shouldnt exist. It's a shitty solution to Riot's shitty balancing of healing and results in shitty gameplay patterns where healers are gods when no one builds and and are complete shit when people do. Riot needs to rebalance all healing based Champions individually and remove Grevious Wounds.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

So you hate Vlad because of what he's designed to be. That's fine, I hate Ekko because he was designed as a "utility assassin" (two words that should never be together). His job is to damage soak and drain-tank.

Some champs just rub some people the wrong way.

...Yes, this is true, though I fail to see how this is relevant. You just said Vlad wins DPS fights. He's not a burst mage in any sense, he enjoys extended battles of attrition that he can outsustain. Vlad does not beat ADCs with his "burst" because he does not have burst.

I meant that he does some crazy DPS but can't be burst like an ADC.

Health cost Champions are designed differently from mana costs Champions

Aatrox is garbo but a balance nightmare, Mundo is pretty bullshit at times but at least you can dodge cleaver and make him lose the HP return, Zac typically doesn't lane but you can kill his HP blobs, and Morde really does kill himself but gets a shield to compensate. You just can't stop Vlad from sustaining in laning phase.

His teamfight presence is nothing to speak of. He contributes less to a teamfight than the average support Champion, especially since landing any more than a 2-man Haemoplague gets increasingly difficult the better the enemy team is.

Even a 2-man ult is good. Damage amps aren't a joke and lets Vlad live considerably longer through the HP restore on pop. After that he can just live as long as humanly possible to draw focus or he'll do a lot of damage.

Grevious Wounds as a whole shouldnt exist.

I lack the insight on this personally. Although I can only really see a GW removal with a rework of Soraka honestly.

Over Innsmouth2 votes

You just can't stop Vlad from sustaining in laning phase.

His heals are 50% reduced when used on minions, so all you gotta do is stay out of his danger zone or cc him for the duration that he can Rush. It's not perfect, but it's there.

Other than that, I don't really have much to say now. We both have fair points I think.

At least Vlad's not Ekko though. Or Fizz. Or Fiora.

Sohleks1 votes

They might have to tone down his tank path a bit to make him feel fair. The promise of a tanky build removes one counterplay possibility of burst especially in conjunction with his insta pool. Of course I don't believe he should be total glass either or it would be difficult to fulfill his sustain vampire carry fantasy.

I guess it's worse his new core sustain multiplier is now a full tank item. item 3065

The rework was a mild success in that it made his E make sense. He actually has a kinda higher skill cap from that resulting from combination of holding his E during pool or flashes, rather than fire forget e stack spam. He feels more mindful to play than he actaully looks [in teamfights] because you wanna cycle his cooldowns and defensive tools to maximize your lifetime while deciding where to be and dmg.

Mid Vlad has always been problematic to balance though. The lane is short and tiny and he has range and a slip away tool that makes him very hard to shutdown short of insanely hard aggressive trades. HP sustain inherently counters a lot of mid laners as they tend to be on the squishier side. He definitely wasn't a liability on the team pre-reworked picked to abuse safe counter matchups.

Over Innsmouth3 votes

Yup. Vlad has always been an excellent stone wall against Assassins and other snowballers if the Vlad player knew how to survive and outscale without losing lane.

Given that outside of his ultimate though, Vlad's damage abilities consist of a single-target that only does real damage half the time (at most) a shitty AoE dot that drains his own health to use, and a really powerful but blockable AoE burst that drains even more of his own health to use, I don't think Vlad being as tanky as he is damage-y is unreasonable. He has no cc or mobility, so him being a walking ball of killing and nigh-unkillableness is fair I think.

They've already reverted his passive back to the pre-MYMU state, where it heavily favoured AP builds. They've buffed the AP ratio on his Q while nerfing the bases. I'm almost certain this is just "we don't want Vlad at Worlds so we're gutting him" on Riot's part.

WoonStruck2 votes

I mean, the majority of mid picks can punish him early, and are safe enough that he can't touch them without flashing.

Competitively speaking, at least.

He actually has to be at risk a little when wave-clearing, unlike pretty much any other meta mid-laner. That more than makes up for the fact that he has healing (that takes 15+ seconds to fill you up if you can't completely top off from 1 CR proc).


The E nerfs I can see, since he rushes HP items early on, generally. I don't see why they're nerfing his Q in addition. Healing can hardly be considered his problem atm. Its his early trading and E's waveclear even with low ranks, if anything.

VvVVvV1 votes

peronally I hate every champ that has to lose health to use a ability, which is why i cant use them. Makes me mad that they changed soraka ...you got to damn near kill yourself to keep you adc alive because they dont know how to let the minions tank minion damage...geesh.

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