Atleast better than this '' early game decides the match and adcs roflstomping everyone lul '' Meta.
The only con in s5 at some point was the tank meta
cinderhulk was unfun yeah but games were more long and competetive and less one sided , comebacks were not impossible and turrets were not cheese burger.
Yaskamasandwich17 votesEven then Cinderhulk and champions using them were tweaked and fine tuned to a good spot. I remember the ban list only consisted of LB, Zed, and Fizz because they were hard to lock down for tanks when played right. Then the power creep Fiora, GP, Juggernaut reworks came and Cinderhulk and other tank items were nerfed. Power creep has been out of control ever since.
flibitydoo2 votesyeah I liked how they tuned sejuani down into the gutter
then tuned cinderhulk into the gutter after
then kept sejuani tuned down in the gutter for 3 years LUL
yay nibbers1 votesSejuani was never tuned in the gutter though. She sat at around 51% winrate for the longest time after her nerfs and even after cinderhulk nerfs. She was perfectly fine, just not played in competetive.
Critmaster Garen8 votesEven then Cinderhulk and champions using them were tweaked and fine tuned to a good spot. I remember the ban list only consisted of LB, Zed, and Fizz because they were hard to lock down for tanks when played right. Then the power creep Fiora, GP, Juggernaut reworks came and Cinderhulk and other tank items were nerfed. Power creep has been out of control ever since.
when it comes to power creep, the juggernaut rework was still fine. and the outliers were resolved within weeks.
these champions were in an absolute garbage spot before it happened and they were deserving of the buffs they got with the update.
at the end of season 5 you could actually see most types of carries performing equally well. skirmishers, juggernauts, marksmen and assassins. even a couple of mages did good. you could carry from any position depending how you performed early game. mages in general were a bit lacking, but there wasnt one single type of carry that took over games.
it was probably the most balanced state the game had been in maybe ever.
not to mention the juggernaut rework really only affected 4 champions that were in a pretty balanced spot on the last season 5 patches. even morde who was the only really problematic champion to come out of the rework was evened out by the end of the season. skarner was op initially but got hotfixed after a week, and garen and darius were quickly put in a balanced spot.
marksmen on the other hand did not deserve the buffs that came with their reworks a couple month later, as they were already relevant and strong before. it just put them over the top for 3 month for no reason. we expected some kit changes to make them individually more interesting, but not that riot also buffed the shit out of them in the same update.
everything really went downhill with larger and larger class updates after the juggernauts, since they pushed out the next update without fully dealing with the fallout of the previous update. combined with absolute complete garbage global mechanics changes to reduce game times.
Yaskamasandwich1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bPJFjnTJ,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-09-24T05:18:11.953+0000)
when it comes to power creep, the juggernaut rework was still fine. and the outliers were resolved within weeks.
these champions were in an absolute garbage spot before it happened and they were deserving of the buffs they got with the update.
at the end of season 5 you could actually see most types of carries performing equally well. skirmishers, juggernauts, marksmen and assassins. even a couple of mages did good. you could carry from any position depending how you performed early game. mages in general were a bit lacking, but there wasnt one single type of carry that took over games.
it was probably the most balanced state the game had been in maybe ever.
not to mention the juggernaut rework really only affected 4 champions that were in a pretty balanced spot on the last season 5 patches. even morde who was the only really problematic champion to come out of the rework was evened out by the end of the season. skarner was op initially but got hotfixed after a week, and garen and darius were quickly put in a balanced spot.
marksmen on the other hand did not deserve the buffs that came with their reworks a couple month later, as they were already relevant and strong before. it just put them over the top for 3 month for no reason. we expected some kit changes to make them individually more interesting, but not that riot also buffed the shit out of them in the same update.
everything really went downhill with larger and larger class updates after the juggernauts, since they pushed out the next update without fully dealing with the fallout of the previous update. combined with absolute complete garbage global mechanics changes to reduce game times.
Will have to disagree to some points. I'll admit i did love the kit changes and ideas that the Juggernaut update brought. Yes you're right, those 4 champions were in desperate need of help and needed tuning. I still remember the nightmares of old Darius and how his Q was instant mega damage early game. Then he like most bruisers were pure useless late game, changes were needed.
Everything else however in that patch was bad, mostly item changes. This was the same patch that nerfed Cinderhulk, along with other tank items that tanks were balanced around. Thornmail was gutted, though that item indeed was toxic. Still it was one of the good reasons not to blow your load on the front line first, including Marksmen. Black Cleaver and Deadman's Plate were insane and covered the Juggernaut's weakness. Kind of like how GA, DD, BT, and PD are covering Marksmen's weaknesses.
Sure the fixes to the Juggernauts came quick, but the fallout effect from the other damage is still around. Like how Vanguards are basically Wardens now since their tank items were nerfed. Even with Grievous Wounds on Thornmail, Vanguards, Juggernauts, and Divers still can't kill an isolated Marksman. Yes I included Vanguards. Despite what people believed that was their job, Assassins just did it more efficiently, safely, and quicker when the target was isolated. It was the reason that gave supports their job without going over the top. If the Marksman had a support, no problem. If the Marksman didn't then they were toast.
RainXBlade13 votesCinderhulk was not the only offending item in S5. Another item that was disgusting during S5 was Sated Devourer.
I'm talking about these items:
That enchantment turned Yi, Jax, Xin and any auto-attacking jungler from lackluster/strong to just outright insane to deal with. As soon as the user hit 30 stacks, literally no one can duel them and that the only option from that was to just use up every CC the team has just to not allow the Devourer jungler to even land at least 1-2 autoattacks.
Heck that item literally allowed anyone to jungle even if they were squishy (Hi Vayne/Kog) or at least have a single on-hit effect in their kit (Hi Braum). Although the jungle diversity the item brought was really good, the power it gave was immensely high, and was very cheap.
######The wolf you got though was nice.
Warwick Main11 votesAnother item that was disgusting during S5 was Sated Devourer.
Nothing this season was as bad as that abomination. Either game ended pre 20 mins because it was a 4v5, or you got 1v5'd by someone who was 0/0/0.
RainXBlade1 votesAnd I thought Feral Flare was even worse to deal with.
Sdars1 votesGood old solo baron at 15 minutes.
RainXBlade1 votesI heard Udyr takes that spot with Yi coming in 2nd when FF existed.
yay nibbers1 votesGood ol' Feral Flare Come out of the jungle after 22 minutes at level 18 Udyr.
AirKingNeo11 votesAt least Sated Devourer was decently balanced because either both teams had it or Lee Sin/Elise could equalize in ealry game power, plus Rageblade had not been buffed yet.
dunder kill2 votesSo decently balanced that it was removed from the game. You gotta take the nostalgia glasses off
Jet Sett1 votesThe problem was the type of gameplay it encouraged, not balance. It made junglers that took it non-existent to their teams for such a long time that anyone with early power could pretty much gank with impunity.
NineTailedMystic1 votesRemember Tank Yi that happened because of Sated? Yea, no one else wants to either.
Jet Sett1 votesI don't remember that, I DO remember Yi and other junglers that would rely on AD ratios that were later changed to bonus AD so they had to build damage to do damage. Did Sated help that? Probably, but if it was only Sated then we would have the same issue with Guinsoo's wouldn't we?
RainXBlade1 votesAh.... I remembered this varied build I did on Yi when Sated Devourer existed:
The important 3:
(Obviously....)
/ 
/ 
(Boots of choice)
(Synced well with Sated's phantom hit.)
Situational/s:
/ 
/ 
/ 
/ 
- 1st item/s after important 3
/ 
/ 
/ 
/ 
- 2nd item after important 3
/ 
/ 
/ 
(Old GA that gave MR and Armor instead of AD and Armor) - my preferred last items to finish my bruiser build.
Most of my situational items are mix-and-match based on the situation.
My preferred Elixir:
With my build, I was unstoppable; I could shred through squishies and tanks with no problem at all and that I'm very durable as well with the mixed defenses and good life steal. Even w/o crit, 2-3 autos were more than enough to shred through anything that didn't build any defense item.
Tychusfindlay9185 votesCinderhulk was not the only offending item in S5. Another item that was disgusting during S5 was Sated Devourer. I'm talking about these items:
That enchantment turned Yi, Jax, Xin and any auto-attacking jungler from lackluster/strong to just outright insane to deal with. As soon as the user hit 30 stacks, literally no one can duel them and that the only option from that was to just use up every CC the team has just to not allow the Devourer jungler to even land at least 1-2 autoattacks.
Heck that item literally allowed anyone to jungle even if they were squishy (Hi Vayne/Kog) or at least have a single on-hit effect in their kit (Hi Braum). Although the jungle diversity the item brought was really good, the power it gave was immensely high, and was very cheap.
######The wolf you got though was nice.
Devourer was a noob stomper item. Even when it was spammed in solo queue it was never touched in the higher elos and competitive because you could absolutely decimate anyone running devourer when they tried to sate it with just semi-coordinated counterjungling.
RainXBlade1 votesLow elo is a different story though. You do realize that......
RainXBlade1 votesNobody mentions the little wolf pet you get with the item?
Ok.......
Yaskamasandwich1 votesCinderhulk was not the only offending item in S5. Another item that was disgusting during S5 was Sated Devourer. I'm talking about these items:
That enchantment turned Yi, Jax, Xin and any auto-attacking jungler from lackluster/strong to just outright insane to deal with. As soon as the user hit 30 stacks, literally no one can duel them and that the only option from that was to just use up every CC the team has just to not allow the Devourer jungler to even land at least 1-2 autoattacks.
Heck that item literally allowed anyone to jungle even if they were squishy (Hi Vayne/Kog) or at least have a single on-hit effect in their kit (Hi Braum). Although the jungle diversity the item brought was really good, the power it gave was immensely high, and was very cheap.
######The wolf you got though was nice.
Good lord I forgot entirely of Devourer. No idea how, that was a hell scape of a nightmare at that time. Worse than anything else really, including the rework and Juggernaut update IMO.
Barcid10 votesThe "tank" meta didn't even last the full season. It came in near the beginning-middle and faded out in the latter half of the middle of the season.
And people seem to forget that part there where instead of problems being fucking season-long hellscapes, broken things came and went rather quickly by comparison, getting balanced out within a month or so with only specific champs really completely abusing things.
Like, coming into the end of that season, the game was hailed as quite literally the most balanced it had ever been. While people were pissed about tanks being an actual threat, the thing was that it never clicked until that point that maybe - just maybe - tanks should be an actual fucking threat for once. Immobile, kiteable, easy targets that can be bounced around and needed actual focus to kill. I remember season 4 being an assassin retard-scape in that tanks were practically a joke - something to pack some CC so that assassins could do their job easier. That was their sole purpose. In fact, if you weren't "focusing the ADC/mage", you were doing something incredibly wrong.
Then season 5 came where you should actually focus that giant hulking menace standing right in front of you between your team and his own? Oh the humanity of it! Spare me that, please! Bring us back to a time where tanks were a fucking cc bot to be joked about.
Honestly, the key issues at the end of season 5 - and the cause of the massive problems we continue to see - were the juggernaut reworks and the unmitigateable damage from champs like Fiora or Gangplank - damage you can't reduce and will stay consistently impactful from start to finish. And these two things not only came in toward the very end of the season but were more a precursor to season 6 than an actual representation of season 5.
Season 5 was a fucking gem compared to season 6 by far. And this season is looking to be equally awful.
Melledoneus9 votesSejuani and Vayne were the only broken champions at the time.
Even then, Sejuani got nerfed and Vayne is always broken, so it was a better time.
Zëd Lęppelin4 votesOMG how does a noob like you get to be warden. Vayne has clear counterplay: dodge her mouse and pink ward the Q. SMH some people on the boards....
EndlessSorcerer1 votesPink wards no longer exist.
Control Wards don't provide true-sight of stealthed enemies.
Zëd Lęppelin4 votes'Dodge her mouse'. The fact you didn't realise that was a satire comment upsets me a lot.
EndlessSorcerer2 votesAt this point, I assume idiocy unless proven otherwise.
Sadly, I have seen people provide worse arguments with complete sincerity.
It doesn't help that I tend to skim posts since few are actually worth reafing. I saw the insult, saw the reference to using pick wards against stealth and judged that sufficient.
Swarovsko7 votesS5 also had lots of champs diversity. Every support was viable and most of them were equally good, now enchanters have been dominating since support itemization got updated. There was lots of diversity mid too, now you either pick a burst mage or 
and gank bot so your ADC gets fed. The only good things this season had were skins, lores, splash arts and VGUs, the rest of this season was garbage along with all the shitty champions it brought (
were probably the only champions I liked, 
were dogshit no offense).
GelsominoKiller1 votesI indeed recall an extreme variety of mids and supports, not only junglers.
While I do enjoy every recent relase I think that every single systemic change in S6-S7 fucked up the game, and they were never fixed.
xJLx MCHammer7 votesSeason 5 was good.
Outside of a few small issues, the game was pretty healthy.
Now we have this ADC philosophy that they are true carries. Everyone has to be a secondary support in one way or another.
SpecterVonBaren6 votesLet us never forget the glorious period of balance we had before the Juggernaut patch.
XDDD5 votesEarly doesn't decide the match unless you're talking about bot. If you get a 100-200cs lead vs a tank in top then it doesn't really mean anything if you're bot's losing.
SwiftKitten884 votesno season 4 was the best... season 5 was trash...
PePsiLemoNN3 votesWon't even try to say how retarded s5 was , this post is like a magnet for people that get a boner thinking of s5
OverpoweredSoap3 votesPeople say this every season.
I'm not saying its true or its not, but this happens every season.
Last season ends with every rejoicing because they fucking hated it and then midway or at the end of the newest season everyone praises the last season.
sobi9991 votesThat's actually because riot is going down a steep hill of doom. They are fkn up their game every seasn. Simples xD
ViciousSummoner2 votesFeral Flare was best meta.
RainbowIcee2 votesI wish we had the previous jungle again, it was amazing. Also i wish we could delete 
and have 
be melee only. I feel those changes would help the game quite a bit.
Not xPeke2 votes is too oppressive even on melee champions.
That item as a whole needs to be nerfed.
It's only adding to the already too high damage creep that has been going on for a while now.
RainbowIcee1 votesmaybe for some champs but i think it would be fair game on most. I can see it being abusive on 
and maybe a few others. Just gotta fix how the proc actually works.
Not xPeke3 votesI don't understand the need for it.
Assassins were fine in the past. Then came new masteries and damage creep. Keystones like Thunderlord helping out with bursting people more.
And to all of this, we add , to add EVEN MORE unnecessary extra burst.
What's the point in having different classes when masteries and itemization help someone have burst when unnecessary? And yes, assassins build duskblade.. but it only increases the burst that they should already contain in their own kits.
martincastillo22 votesAnd there was old Graves, old assassins, old Ryze, old last whisper, brutalizer... i really miss s5
ankoanko192 votesWut r u talking about? Did you play under the beginning-mid of s5? ADC's were dominant af, Trist even got a rework.. TWICE!
NineTailedMystic1 votesYea, no. I'll take this season over old LW and Brutalizer any day.
PaladinNO2 votesJust remember that season 5 came after the best part of this game, namely season 3 and first half of season 4. This game used to be fun - now it's all LC$.
EinarUlfar1 votesCould we theoretically achieve the same champ diversity again that we saw in S5? I loved S5, but I didn't have a strong understanding of the game at the time; what caused the diversity?
Titanium707 votesA balance between Early- Mid- and Lategame - primarily.
Right now this balance doesnt exist. Early has to much impact- Mid is basicly non existing- and Lategame begins when the ADC has 2.5 Items and a Censer.
dunder kill1 votesIn season 5:
"SEASON 5 SUCKS BRING BACK SEASON 2!!!!!"
SephAgro1 votesexcept no one said that. sorry but this time its objectively true
