to much tank hate out there

hobomann2·Oct 19, 2014·13 votes·1,746 views

what i mean by this is the disgusting amount of ability's and item's that easily runs tanks into the ground

be that either damage that scales off enemy max HP (kog maw , vayne come to mind but liandry's and botrk exsist so everyone can use this)

or ridiculous amount's of true damage or way's to mix your damage output so tank's cant itemize effectively againt's you( and bork

OR the general inflation of armor and magic pen item's and shredding ability's( , and ) and no item that helps mitigate crit's in this gross "crit meta"

26 Comments

MartyrofsandOct 19, 20145 votes

The issue against tanks isn't items like BoTRK, or Liandries, it's the effects of the penetration changes from S3. Back in S2 if you wanted to kill a tank you built a % based armor/magic resist penetration item and that was it because % based pen and flat pen worked against each other. Now you can stack penetration to idiotic degrees so we have stupid scenarios where Assassins are 1v1ing tanks and ripping them to shreds in seconds.

Want tanks to be viable? The answer is simple, revert the penetration changes that have been nothing but toxic, hell back in S1 they tried the set up for armor/magic pen that we have now and deemed it was unhealthy for the game but suddenly in S3 that toxic set up they had already dismissed suddenly became exactly what they wanted.

Done25Oct 19, 20141 votes

The issue against tanks isn't items like BoTRK, or Liandries, it's the effects of the penetration changes from S3. Back in S2 if you wanted to kill a tank you built a % based armor/magic resist penetration item and that was it because % based pen and flat pen worked against each other. Now you can stack penetration to idiotic degrees so we have stupid scenarios where Assassins are 1v1ing tanks and ripping them to shreds in seconds.

Want tanks to be viable? The answer is simple, revert the penetration changes that have been nothing but toxic, hell back in S1 they tried the set up for armor/magic pen that we have now and deemed it was unhealthy for the game but suddenly in S3 that toxic set up they had already dismissed suddenly became exactly what they wanted.

They need to just remove penetration in its entirety and then rebalance defense from there.

Jinx: "But then I can't mow down entire teams of Thornmail with my Last Whisper!" Well maybe you should have let Brand and Vladimir have some of that CS!

MartyrofsandOct 19, 20142 votes

They need to just remove penetration in its entirety and then rebalance defense from there.

Jinx: "But then I can't mow down entire teams of Thornmail with my Last Whisper!" Well maybe you should have let Brand and Vladimir have some of that CS!

Not really, penetration as a stat is perfectly fine, it definitely needs to be properly tuned and balanced and right now league is leaps and bounds away from accomplishing that, but on it's own vs armor/magic resist is fine. Many games already use similar systems in a healthy way, but the issue right now is there is no real decision making in buying armor and magic penetration. It's just a stat you get as much of as you can because enough flat pen gives you true damage to squishies and with how it combos with % pen you shred tanks as well.

If penetration was changed so you had to focus your builds, IE flat pen is what you picked up if you wanted to rip through a target with 50-100 armor, and % pen is what you used if you needed to cut through people stacking it, then it would be perfect. Assassins would favor the flat pen because of how they tend to target squishy champs while ADCs who would do the majority of the constant damage and would need to cut through the front line would favor % based pen.

The issue was back during S2 there was really no effect flat/% pen items. For armor you had Yomuus which was the time was worthless and Last Whisper as the only two real armor pen items. Black Cleaver could shed up to 45 armor but it was a very odd ball set of stats that no assassin at the time would of really wanted. For Magic pen wasn't as bad as you have Haunting Guise(but at the time it built into nothing), Abyssal Scepter, Sorc Shoes, and Void Staff. If they just let Haunting Guise build into Liandries, perhaps added 1 or 2 more flat pen magic items, and then actually added some flat armor pen items without changing the way stacking penetration worked the game would be infinitely better off that it is now.

AtheosisXOct 20, 20141 votes

The issue against tanks isn't items like BoTRK, or Liandries, it's the effects of the penetration changes from S3. Back in S2 if you wanted to kill a tank you built a % based armor/magic resist penetration item and that was it because % based pen and flat pen worked against each other. Now you can stack penetration to idiotic degrees so we have stupid scenarios where Assassins are 1v1ing tanks and ripping them to shreds in seconds.

Want tanks to be viable? The answer is simple, revert the penetration changes that have been nothing but toxic, hell back in S1 they tried the set up for armor/magic pen that we have now and deemed it was unhealthy for the game but suddenly in S3 that toxic set up they had already dismissed suddenly became exactly what they wanted.

Exactly. All the penetration out there is really obnoxious when you are playing a tank. I don't get why my items should be completely negated by an ADC's items. I paid money for them just like he did. Penetration should lessen the effectiveness of armor/mr not basically ignore them.

Potato DocOct 20, 20141 votes

So i played in season 1 and 2 and while I really agree with the fact tanks should not be so squishy, I also have to disagree with the way it was in season 1 and 2. I remember in ranked games if you didnt ban amu, rammus, and malphite it was basically gg as they had so much potential to destroy a team everyone was scared of them.

However what if they lowered the % pen? so example would be yasuos ult would only give 25% armor pen, last whisper/ void staff would only give 30, and so on. Dunno just something i thought of

as for those who would say 25% armor pen on yasuo would be a huge nerf, think about it, a LW plus his ultimate gives him 90% armor pen (okay maybe like 84% if it is like tenacity) but that is basically true damage, true damage with crits are op, people give irelia greif for just having 75 for each hit and only for 6 seconds at a time.

Kuroi86Oct 20, 20141 votes

Yas ult gives bonus armor pen, in other words it's only effective against bonus armor, not base. Calculates a bit differently.

Tit MasterOct 20, 20142 votes

The issue against tanks isn't items like BoTRK, or Liandries, it's the effects of the penetration changes from S3. Back in S2 if you wanted to kill a tank you built a % based armor/magic resist penetration item and that was it because % based pen and flat pen worked against each other. Now you can stack penetration to idiotic degrees so we have stupid scenarios where Assassins are 1v1ing tanks and ripping them to shreds in seconds.

Want tanks to be viable? The answer is simple, revert the penetration changes that have been nothing but toxic, hell back in S1 they tried the set up for armor/magic pen that we have now and deemed it was unhealthy for the game but suddenly in S3 that toxic set up they had already dismissed suddenly became exactly what they wanted.

you think thats dumb? you should see Xin with armor pen ( around 50% with just Last Whisper)

MartyrofsandOct 20, 20141 votes

you think thats dumb? you should see Xin with armor pen ( around 50% with just Last Whisper)

I'm well aware of how stupid someone like Xin can be. Way back when Vi/J4/Xin where top junglers I did the math showing that if they just had Black Cleaver and Last Whisper then they could shred a tank with 300 armor to around 100 or so between those two items and the armor shreds in their kits. It's really dumb.

SecretAgentHulkOct 19, 20143 votes

IDK, seems like if any of these champs are focusing the tank, they deserve to get three-shotted by the ADC.

Champs doing damage at %maxHP also means that they do less damage to squishies so that's not a net loss; tanks shouldn't be unstoppable monsters (Darius I'm lookin' at you) but damage sponges.
For mixed damage types, (and I'm getting better with armor/MR so I'm no expert) it seems like there are all kinds of mixed armor/MR items, or that if you're building true tank, you can just alternate items that give bonus armor/MR.
For armor/MR shred, Yas is entirely dependent on a skillshot, Ryze is not played (at least in my ELO), and Vi I don't know much about. :)
Crits are stupid.

clickheadOct 19, 20145 votes

Ryze is one of the most popular top laners, what the hell do you mean he's not played xD

I think the argument backing up tanks in this meta is thornmail. Its very strong.

SecretAgentHulkOct 19, 20141 votes

OK. I'm high bronze/low silver and have seen him maybe five times since level 20. YMMV. Thornmail is really cool too.

clickheadOct 20, 20141 votes

Damn, it's ironic that Ryze isn't played in low elo when he's so simple mechanically. You should pick him up sometimes if you're top lane, he can carry very hard.

Sightless66Oct 20, 20142 votes

His winrate actually goes up significantly at higher divisions, more than almost any other champion. A lot of low elo players don't realize that you can't just faceroll or you lose a ton of your dps.

SecretAgentHulkOct 20, 20141 votes

Any good guides you could point me to? I struggle with mages sometimes (my top style is more Jax/Teemo right now) but I'd love to learn.

Tit MasterOct 20, 20141 votes

Any good guides you could point me to? I struggle with mages sometimes (my top style is more Jax/Teemo right now) but I'd love to learn.

if you want to fight mages then take up Cho'Gath, he has a 3 second silence, max your spikes first and silence second, don't listen to people who say it's best to max rupture, they can't poke you if they don't have any poke skills

Tit MasterOct 20, 20141 votes

IDK, seems like if any of these champs are focusing the tank, they deserve to get three-shotted by the ADC.

Champs doing damage at %maxHP also means that they do less damage to squishies so that's not a net loss; tanks shouldn't be unstoppable monsters (Darius I'm lookin' at you) but damage sponges.

For mixed damage types, (and I'm getting better with armor/MR so I'm no expert) it seems like there are all kinds of mixed armor/MR items, or that if you're building true tank, you can just alternate items that give bonus armor/MR.

For armor/MR shred, Yas is entirely dependent on a skillshot, Ryze is not played (at least in my ELO), and Vi I don't know much about. :)

Crits are stupid.

okay Yas doesnt just depend one ONE skillshot, he depends on KNOCKUPS, meaning if you get hit by Rammus Powerball or Sion Decimating Smash/Unstoppable Onslaught then you are done for, Vi's armor shred doesnt stack, and is all around not as annoying as the itemization, some champs (most notably Elise) still do high damage to squishies, Crits just need nerfed in general, 30% crit chance from one item is just stupid

2000boxesOct 19, 20142 votes

kog maw and jax and warwick dont have true damage

Sire HippingtonOct 19, 20147 votes

but mixed damage, and in case of kog and WW also %health

DropFillOct 19, 20144 votes

kog maw and jax and warwick dont have true damage

They have mixed damage, that is hard to itemize against. But MF mixed damage shouldn't be a problem since she is immobile as fuck and has no E

forgottenfablesOct 19, 20142 votes

I wonder if you were here for Season 2, when you had tanks that could tank your turret, your ADC, and your team all while still killing you.

RoyaiChaosOct 19, 20141 votes

Ahri's true damage is not that hard to dodge...

Asyulur LokarOct 19, 20141 votes

tank's cant

This bothers me so much more than it should...

NoMonkuOct 19, 20141 votes

You might be right, but it doesn't really change the fact that for most of the champions that deal a significant amount of damage, outside of Ryze and Jax who both take a long time to scale, most other champions are relatively squishy. IF you can catch them out, they will die, as simple as that. It may be that you would have fun being an invincible tank that can just walk through teamfights and shrugging off all damage, but it's incredibly unfun to the people who have to fight against it. This still happens too, if a tank is actually able to get fed compared to the rest of the other team. I'd rather have damage being a little over the top with it possibly being nerfed, then just have to deal with super tanks all day and get run over because they got fed off of their opponent.

GalgusOct 22, 20141 votes

Crits need to be strong, since they only work with heavy gold investment and dedication to damage.

They flat-out should be the highest sustained damage source in the game.

Anyway, I don't see tanks having trouble staying alive currently - and most are tanky DPS anyway.

7ha7guy777Oct 22, 20141 votes

some champions can build relatively tanky and still shred tanks thanks to high % max hp abilities or moderate % max hp abilities on low cooldowns (no point listing the ones you already listed) Malzahar Mordekaiser Maokai Zac Trundle come to mind. item actives like bork and dfg are also anti-tank

ceaselessphantomOct 22, 20141 votes

Please not Ahri's true damage. I do not want her to be pushed even more into the assassin role by not being able to do decent damage to tanks with her.

On another note Kog'Maw and Vayne are pretty fine. Killing tanks is their purpose and what makes them special. Vi, Ryze, Jax and Yasuo defiantly do not need it. Another one you did not mention is Maokai who has become popular because of his anti tank ability.

Miss Fortune is not really that much a tank killer and I do not know much about the others.