Why is Cass allowed to stay gutted after her rework

The Red Warden·Oct 26, 2014·70 votes·4,791 views

Remember how after 's rework her winrate dropped by around 5-10% and Riot made her broken afterward to compensate, all while she still was still pretty even with the power level of most other champions . Yet who most people agree is unplayable at this point goes unchanged.

Really, why is that? Also, remember how Rioters actually talked to the community about how to make the Nidalee rework better, while Cass gets one thread in GD where the Rioter talking in it didn't even have a red title.

84 Comments

SecretbeefOct 26, 201420 votes

What I dont get is Fizz, Morg, Amumu, Lucian, Jinx, and many others are allowed to stay at their ridiculous power levels while champs like Cassio and Eve get gutted and left in a ditch,

The Red WardenOct 26, 201410 votes

Because Riot decides what is toxic or not. Such as how Olaf is never allowed to be viable but Morgana has a castable version of his ult and doesn't suffer at all for it.

Neo CyrusOct 26, 201421 votes

"I can't Valkyrie away from Diana 100% of the time therefore she's toxic so we gutted her" - Phreak

That's not verbatim, but it's actually what he said.

When champions have shit win rates in higher Elos but are a style Riot don't like they let them rot or even nerf them further despite being clearly unviable in solo queue with shit win rates in pro games, a great example is Elise. Every Bronze 5 and his dog whined about her even when her win rate was trash consistently across all Elos so she was nerfed more repeatedly.

Then there are the opposite examples where they use the artificial win rates as their defense. "Diana has a win rate not light years below 50%". Yeah, at Bronze and Silver, it's in the shitter everywhere else and always has been since 2012. That's with only mains playing her artificially bloating the hell out of it, subtract 15% for a more realistic number. "40% win rate in Diamond over the course of 3 years? Balanced." - Riot

How successful a champion is actually has nothing to do with how they balance, they balance based on what they feel should exist, what they like and dislike, period... and what can make flashy LCS Big Plays.

Neo AragornOct 26, 20149 votes

They nerfed the absolute shit out of Morgana's viability mid though. It seems that happens every time a mage goes bot, they nerfed precisely its mid power meanwhile it's still fine as a support. They didn't even increase her ratios to compensate for the people who play her mid, they did that for Annie.

NarasimhaOct 27, 20143 votes

To be entirely fair, Annie actually required interaction. That was the problem with morg, no matter what you did, she'd drop her pool and sustain everything back. You had to either have a gank, or be ahead of her to even have a chance.

Neo AragornOct 29, 20142 votes

That's a very poor comparison. That's like someone arguing Annie has no counter play because she can drop her whole combo from a point and click guaranteed stun. That's just listing a possibility and standing there with arms crossed with a frown, it's not a proper explanation of even a specific situation.

It's never that simple and those arguments are usually worded in a way that's ridiculously exaggerated. Play Morg bot and see how easy it is to sustain back in the process without having to drop your Tormented Soil on minions, effectively ruining the lane position. That might not matter in Bronze to Gold, but at higher Elos if you ruin your lane with one wrong spell you're never going to get your positioning back, you're going to be out-leveled, out-farmed, and it will be GG.

Bionic AvianOct 27, 20142 votes

Are you kidding me? Lucian got his farming capabilities BUFFED. his Q used to deal dramatically less damage to minions than now.

AbiwonKenabiOct 28, 20141 votes

For one, I wouldn't consider Eve "gutted" she's just much more situational than she used to be, which is not necessarily bad. She can still do well, and still does fine in solo queue as far as I can see.

Second, Amumu and Jinx aren't at ridiculous power levels. I've never in my 2-3 years playing League been like "oh crap they picked Amumu. GG." He can be strong, but "ridiculous power levels"? I don't think so. Similar thing for Jinx, although a fed Jinx can be scary, but then again so are most fed ADCs. Fizz and Morgana are borderline OP. The only one you mentioned that's almost without a doubt too strong is Lucian, and even then he isn't as impactful as someone like Lee Sin or Thresh or Syndra.

They are looking at Lucian's power level just as surely as they are looking at Cassiopeia's.

xJLx MCHammerOct 26, 201415 votes

Mainly because she is not popular. This game is a loy like politics. Popularity will get you further than reasoning with riot in some cases

questirOct 27, 20149 votes

That's the grim and sad reality of Riot. They take non popular champions playerbase like we were third class citizens. This would not happen with someone like Lee sin or Nid

NarasimhaOct 27, 20142 votes

Well, Nid has been gutted and trashed for a while again...

The Red WardenOct 27, 20141 votes

Nid was a little weak after release then Riot buffs her back into broken status, now she gets nerfed again.

Nid is always going to either be broken or nerfed too hard, it is just how her kit is, and I don't think Riot will ever try to fix that

Knight SoIaire Oct 27, 20142 votes

yeah but nid is supposed to stay gutted till she gets a real rework you might disagree with me but there is only one case in which champions like nidaele get poular it is when something about their kit gets exploitable to the limits of toxicity (first nidas spear, then nidas takedown destroying top)

MrBuffingtonOct 27, 20141 votes

Yea, I talked to Riot before, they said they liked Nidalee being a champ with no CC, so either she's too strong and toxic, or she doesn't do anything for the team. All the roles she's played in need some sort of utility (read: CC) to be effective, so the only way she keeps up is if she's doing crazy amounts of damage.

It's the same problem with ADCs now, I think.

OnegarionOct 27, 20141 votes

I don't see why they can't balance her with making her rations all ad or all AP based on Riots direction. This would make it so you can put quite literally half her damage in each form and making sure that she has to use both to deal the max damage instead of overloading one.

I think the overall issue with champs like Nid/Jayce/Elise is all the damage is put into one form and thats based on scaling the for most part. I think that the idea behind this is very flawed with these champs. It works with Gnar because each form is very unique in their play style with Mini being mobile and good at kiting and Mega being the powerful tank, but only for a limited time. This in a way makes both forms OP in terms of what they do, but you can't chose to stay in them. Causing an overall balance.

I know its been discussed, but I truly believe that this is where the heart of these problems start. When you build a champion with both AP and AD but only put 1 source in each form. If they were to leave the passive as is, but tone down the damage and not give her all the insane benefits like increased takedown range I think it would tone her down a lot and in a more balanced champ overall.

Just to emphasis I REALLY hate that she gets that increased range in cougar form. I'm ok with the damage, but with it being on such a low CD and it makes it near impossible to get away for 1 minor misstep. I don't think there are as many champs that can punish you as harshly as Nid can and take so little in return. Reminds me of the old Lb with silence.

Knight SoIaire Oct 27, 20141 votes

there is one reason you can toss milions of spears without going in or you can use point blank spear just to go in as the kitten

OnegarionOct 27, 20141 votes

It shows how little you know about the champ. If you build AD the spears are rather wimpy overall unless you are a squishy carry and she decimates you with the AD in cougar form after. If you build AP those spears hurt a lot, but her cougar form is a glorified escape tool. You have to bring them in align with each other and make them harmonize instead of the giant split between them both. If you force nid to use both forms to deal all her damage, instead of having the damage focused in one form based on build, you force more out of her and can tone back her overall damage for each skill. This would weaken the spears to deal moderate damage and focus more on the Mark and going into cougar form to use it.

Knight SoIaire Oct 27, 20141 votes

still it does not force her to change the form if she feels like it she will poke for entire game and play just like old nidaele did (yeah dmg will be weaker but its still 100% safe poke with low mana cost and cooldown)

if the spears wont be worth it and cougar will she will go the other way around and use spears point blank just to abuse the cougar

if we assuume that she is at a ballanced level of overall power ppl will still abuse one form over another
its prolly because they are 2 separate champions instead of 2 forms (they dont share anything besides art theme , human nida is a siege mage, cougar nida is a meele assasin , the fact that she covers 2 totaly diferent roles means that ballancing her is close to impossiible)

OnegarionOct 27, 20141 votes

It actually would force her to change form. Early game she would still hurt but if you are barely scratching a tank with just a spear you aren't going to sit back and do nothing if you poke is severely hindered. The same goes for cougar form If you can use takedown and swipe all day to do half damage you won't get anywhere. You have to use the combo of them both to deal the full damage AND they both will scale off the same AP or AD ratios (different overall numbers but the same source of damage).

In no argument will people trying to push her to use both forms evenly be logical. Its just not going to work. So instead you have to force her to switch between the forms to deal out the total amount of damage and not focus it all in 1 form based on damage source. The very description you give is exactly why its not working. If she could change her damage to be all from 1 source it narrows her down and makes it slightly easier to balance her. Versatility is nice and all, but have a hybrid champ just proves to much of an obstacle for Riot and they need to drop them. Jayce is a much better example of what nid could be if they balanced it around 1 source.

Jayce is primarily AD in his main damage sources. He isn't an ad in melee and AP in ranged. It makes it so you can balance him better. While ofc people tend to stay in ranged because its easier to poke and harass that way, but when he goes all in he switches to melee to deal his max damage. If they took the same concept and attempted to make Nidalee the AP jayce I believe you would balance her more overall compared to what she has been.

Knight SoIaire Oct 28, 20141 votes

jayce uses ranged form for actual fights and meele form for cleanups (yeah he is played like this and it kinda wrecks your argument, not to mention that there were times when he had similar problems to nida) if nida has half of her dmg in one form and the half of dmg in the other what forces her to change forms realy? the answer is easy and its NOTHING, her kit does not actualy force some cross form interactions that would make her want to go in

OnegarionOct 28, 20141 votes

and thats what i've been saying she needs. man its not that hard

Knight SoIaire Oct 28, 20141 votes

you said she needs the same dmg on each form not that she needs some cross form interactions

Knight SoIaire Oct 28, 20141 votes

she always had her power redistributed quite fair, but it was just better and more effective to grind only one form its usualy the same longing for reliability that khazix faces with each nerf at first nida had reliable spear so ppl didnt give a crap about the cougar then nidas spear was nnot reliable so they went full takedown now she just lacks sheer numbers kha is similar case, with each change ppl look for the best tool to realiably grind in yoloq

AbiwonKenabiOct 28, 20141 votes

Traps and heals are no longer utility? I wasn't aware.

MrBuffingtonOct 28, 20141 votes

I was talking about CC, should have specified

AbiwonKenabiOct 28, 20141 votes

Ok that's better.

Serpents EmbraceOct 27, 20148 votes

A lot of it is due to how poorly the community relations is being handled by the designer.

I've been meaning to go through and make comparisons between Stashu's development and reaction to the Skarner rework which was the point that Riot claimed it was bad enough they were going to refocus on community communication. TBH I think this whole Cassiopeia debacle is a lot worse than Skarner's incident.

ZeranaOct 27, 20148 votes

She would be fine if her passive didn't take 40 mins to stack completely and her q was faster, even Karthus is faster. Maybe she should get the full benefits of her passive at 100 stacks instead of 200. If it took 20 mins she would be fine, especially since that's how long it takes for Nasus to have a more viable q.

AbiwonKenabiOct 28, 20142 votes

Yeah her stacks take forever, I think that's one of the big problems. They increased the amount of stacks whilst on PBE and I think that really hurt her. Furthermore, she is really easy to catch out and duel, especially early. She doesn't have the tools to farm safely and get to that late game. Look at someone like Vayne or Kog or Ryze who have to get to late game: Vayne has tools to reposition herself, Kog has a slow, extra long range, and long-range scout tool, and Ryze has a solid form of CC and scales off of mana, which allows him to build a little tankier. Cass, meanwhile, has no way to reposition herself, has fairly short range, and has no hard CC outside of her ult which is fairly unreliable.

KiharonOct 28, 20141 votes

She's shorter range than some of the currently popular picks (Ahri, Syndra, Orianna, Xerath, Ziggs) but has the tools to stay out of range of most of the mid assassins. She has 75 more range than Ryze on E (her shortest range skill).

I think you are underselling her ability to kite with Q and W. The slow on W is comparable to Kog's E slow (slightly better early, slightly worse late) and she can speed herself up with Q. The only time I find the Cass's ult unreliable to hit is if the enemy is right on top of me or suddenly behind me, which is usually the result of some sort of dash (Zed/Akali/Katarina).

She also gets more built-in sustain than the champs you mention and can benefit pretty well from building a WotA for even more sustain.

AbiwonKenabiOct 30, 20141 votes

That's the thing though: You just mentioned how she can have trouble with longer ranges like Xerath and Ziggs, but also has trouble with assassins with jumps (i.e. most if not all assassins). So who does she lane against? I understand she is meant to have some kiting capabilities with Q and W, but once Zed or Katarina is on top of you, does it matter? Further, she doesn't have her built in sustain until she hits the amount of stacks required, which means that early advantage doesn't happen until at least a hand full of levels in.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like the direction Cass is being taken. The focus on E, improvements to her E reset, and the insane lategame she gets from her passive are all really appealing to me. It just feels really difficult for her in lane. Too difficult. What's the point of having all this late game power if its so hard to reach, you never get it?

KiharonOct 30, 20141 votes

I think she has an overall favorable matchup against assassins. The primary problem with them in lane is getting the ult off for self-peel. Usually, I deal with the dives by walking backwards a step or two once they jump and then ulting or flashing and ulting if needed. The rest of the lane matchup comes down to watching cooldowns and capitalizing on those windows and punishing them when they try to get close. Those windows are easier to take advantage of when their AAs are melee. Once laning phase ends, Cass has an even better time "against them" since she can stay behind the front line and still deal tons of damage.

My current average is to get the first tier around level 7-8 at 9-11 minutes on the clock. (I am tracking this via replays.) I have also recently started experimenting with spell vamp runes, but I don't have enough games yet to make a good statement about those.

I wouldn't be opposed to having more of a power curve than power steps. Cass does have a relatively high skill floor (along with a high skill cap), which contributes to the difficulty in reaching her potential.

KiharonOct 28, 20141 votes

(FYI, She maxes out at 400 stacks.)

I agree that stacking is definitely part of why her skill floor is so high, and it can take longer than many games allow until you get good at it. I reached max stacks <25% of games I've played on her, and when I do, it has been 35+ minutes. I've heard better players can stack to full in under 30 minutes, but I'm not there yet.

However, she actually stacks as well or better in team fights than in lane, unlike Nasus and Veigar, who stack better when they can farm minions in peace. (I don't play either of the other two, but that's the impression i have of them.) In a teamfight, you can get 1 stack/second when poking and 2-3/second when the fight breaks out.

Reaching the 75 and 200 tiers doesn't feel too bad to me any more, but that last tier can feel unrewarding to build towards, given how rarely I personally reach the max. At one point on PBE, the passive was something like 1% AP/25 stacks and then the bonus doubled at the max. If they brought the sliding scale back, that could help it feel better to stack. Something like 1%AP/20 stacks, with additional +10% at 400 (keeping the current 10% at 200 and 30% total but a slightly lower 3% at 75 to 4% at 80). The other 75 and 200 bonuses could stay the same.

I would also appreciate a faster Q, but I'm not sure how that would affect overall balance if it became "too easy" to hit. Either way, she can still put out decent utility (W slow, R stun/slow) and decent enough damage to be useful with proper positioning.

AudiomancyOct 27, 20146 votes

They just need to make her poison actually do something by itself, not just be a reset button for Twin Fangs.

Circuit BearOct 27, 20145 votes

Because Riot has gone full cooperate. There is no longer concern for what the players want and just for what makes them money.

Replay mode? Cancelled cause too hard yet most other competitive games have it. Reworks? About half of them are horrible and just piss off the community, rather then deal with it maturelly, they just leave it.(ex, Skarner, Cass, Sejuani who was good for two weeks then nerfed again) Limited Edition skins? "We won't rerelease Champ riven for a few years" then gives her out for free at worlds. Seasonal Events? Progressively worse every year. No map reskinning, less new skins, ward skins went from IP purchasable to all rp, even the ones that were ip purchasable. URF mode? Considered easily as popular as ARAM, refused to be brought back even for a week.

OnegarionOct 27, 20142 votes

Honestly though they are a business. The main point of a business is to make money. While they may be going about it a bit wrong its still working as it should.

With the number of Third party programs its not that hard to do this. If its really that big of a deal then you probably don't see the other issues in league.

Whats wrong with the reworks? Cass is bad, but skarners? While he isn't the same as release skarner I'm not really sure whats so wrong with him? THey had up till recently been working on him in most PBE updates. Sejuani is honestly in need of a rework. She is just terrible atm. While her AP scaling is amazing she is a tank and has terrible time pre6. I honestly wish that they did change her. Ofc you leave out the other reworks like the new Sion, Karmas (whos success is split), Kass's semi rework, Master Yi, and Viktors semi rework. There are more reworks that have panned over much better in general.

These reworks are coming from champions with outdated kits and in need of something to keep them even relevant. More reworks are coming down the pipeline too for champions that need it more WW, Urgot, etc.

Your whole point about limited editions skins is just the Champ Riven debate? Really? That debate is long over with them releasing even older skins to yes make money, but also to include a community thats has expanded exponentially. So while the older community sees it as a terrible thing those that are like me who didn't start until season 3 or sooner never had the chance to buy those skins. Honestly I think it would say more about how anti community they are if they outright refused to have these skins out for the multitude of players that joined after season 2.

I can't really disagree with you on the Seasonal Events. Everything I've seen from old events shows much more effort put into the events. While they said they stopped using some of the old maps due to color issues I still fail to see why they couldn't have adjusted them, but then I think about the new Summoners Rift VU and honestly thats not some simple matter. SO i give them some leniency here. The skins.....meh. I mean there seems to me a bit more skins coming out over time since I started early Season 3 instead of a lot at once. Ward skins are SKINS and we pay RP for those and its a way of expression just like buying your favorite skins. I see very little reason why they wouldn't change the ward skins to RP since the community actually wants them and that takes time, effort, and resources that add a price to it. While its annoying and all its not really a bad business concept.

Urf mode was popular, but they said that it was limited. Deal with it. Its not a thing people were having in custom games like ARAM. While they couldn't it doesn't matter. Its a mode they can control and can latter exploit it or release it fully with an event. Also with the new server migration they could be setting up new servers for this very thing. YOu can't tell me with a fact they aren't. This would allow Urf to be on its own servers to handle a high volume of traffic.

Circuit BearOct 29, 20141 votes

Your statements on the cass and skarner reworks just prove you didn't play either of them or read any of the threads about them. I'm not going to argue it because you are not researching your statements. You can look them up. But here is the short version, neither of them feel good anymore also they don't feel like them., only a few outliers who used to play them still enjoys playing them. As a cass main, I played her once and just could not touch her again after her rework. Skarner still feels like a mess to me and both of them used to be my favorites in their respective roles.

Secondly, yes there are good reworks(Sion's has ended up decently, there is one I should be thinking of that I am coming up blank on that I.. oh right Sona), but the point wasn't that all their reworks were bad, but that they don't give a F about the community, except Esports. So your argument is moot because sucessful reworks aren't due to player concern but rather just a fifty fifty gamble. If they were because they worked with say... top level players, then I might agree, but based on the fact all the pros are saying Cass is beyond horrible...

Look at Stashu's handling of the Cassopia rework and its disgustingly rude. He never plays Cassiopia so he barely has live experience with her state, and while a lot of posts were hostile, he never responded on the polite, helpful responses to his rework.

The Limited point was just part of a list of recent events. If you want me to go farther back I can but based on your attitude I don't think care about that sort of thing.

As for Urf, you are right, I can't tell you for a fact they are not except that they won't put the effort for replay mode for people like me who don't believe that I should need to download and use a third party program to do something their game should innately do. Also the fact they haven't made East Coast Servers despite the fact their pros have also been talking about how much just a 50 ping difference can make pretty much tells me there is a high probability they are absurdly conservative on server upgrades

FlagrockOct 27, 20144 votes

I mean Riot is just treating Cass like they treated Olaf... The only reason that they are not seeing the light of day is some Rioter on the balance team hates them and wants them to stay that way... The balance team allows champions like Orianna who is a jack of all trades and is one of the few champions who has been played since her release to stay alive, but champions who make it to the spotlight for 2 weeks are gutted because they are "toxic".

Rioters get to set what's toxic so if they hate a champ that champ dies eternally.

kunkudunkOct 27, 20142 votes

They did nerf ori a few patches ago although it wasn't a huge nerf. As much as a like ori, her ratios are higher than champs her serve similar functions to her. I feel like a nerf to her w damage but a buff to its cd and mana cost would be both a fun and appropriate change as then she would have to hit you more than once to murder you but she would also have more access to her utility. She is a utility mage but still does hefty burst damage. And while I understood their concerns for olaf as he was just 1v3ing people pre-rework, cass never really had that issue. Yeah she was a lane bully but that is really easy to fix so idk why the buffs for her are so hesitant. I mean if they want her mid then her passive needs to stack faster so she has time to roam otherwise she is a detriment to her team.

Pvt Yong TaiOct 28, 20141 votes

Jack of all trades? More like the Queen of all trades. I'm playing Annie and my damage is only ever slightly higher than Orianna's, meanwhile I have 200 range less than her Q and much higher mana costs on all my abilities. My zone is trash comparatively. Not to mention my ult is riskier, has less utility, and less team synergy in the current meta. Unless I can 100-0 her with a single combo, there's pretty much nothing I can do against a good Orianna. Her 825 range 3-second uber-chunk fiesta ball is no fucking joke.

Oh yeah. I forgot to say, her shield has way more utility than mine, yet she's viable in mid and I'm "supposed" to be a support?

zwi3trachtOct 27, 20144 votes

The last 7 days she is only undermatched in unpopularity in solo queue by Urgot and Zac. That's how bad the rework is. http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-unpopularity&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1

And it's trending downward...she is not only pretty bad, she is less fun than before.

Comments by Pros (from my memory, was on twitch): Pobelter was asked to pick Cass by his Streamchat and he was like: "No way, she is complete trash." HotshotGG played Cass on Stream and concluded: "Cassiopeia is godawful and if he knew he would've played against Bjergsen he would've picked a good champ."

Just two opinions on Cass i caught while watching stream the last few days...

MrBuffingtonOct 26, 20142 votes

Cassio got some minor "buffs" soon after her release, and Stashu said he was working on her, but it's taking a really long time and I'm starting to wonder...

The Red WardenOct 26, 201410 votes

Don't get your hopes up for the buffs to come soon, this has had mostly the same reaction by Riot and the community as the Skarner rework so I am expecting a brand new rework to be launched in 4 months or so

MrBuffingtonOct 27, 20142 votes

I might be in the minority, but I kind of like her new kit, if she had some number buffs so her QW actually did anything and she didn't have to sit around for 20 minutes stacking her passive to a point where it's relevant, I think she could be pretty cool to play. A lot of people had complaints about her thematically though, so I guess she might get another rework

Knight SoIaire Oct 27, 20142 votes

my personal opinion is that her e has too low ap ratio after 30 min of the game where she gets her 400 stacks her e turns out to deal medicore dmg while you have over 1k ap she is supposed to be extra weak early and extra strong late, thats what all those power scalings are for (they are substracted from your early and add to your late making you more of a hypercarry) she is extra weak early and "meh" late

MrBuffingtonOct 27, 20142 votes

That's also true, if it's her main source of damage it should either be substantial or at least have a lower mana cost. 90 mana a pop is absurd for that kind of spell.

TiowthyOct 27, 20141 votes

maybe there's a way to change her poison or kit that would still make her feel like cass? hm... idk

QuephaOct 27, 20145 votes

maybe there's a way to change her poison or kit that would still make her feel like cass? hm... idk

they could revert the rework.

MaliginantOct 27, 20141 votes

Maybe you're all playing Cassiopeia on Summoner's Rift, but on Twisted Treelines she's quite viable and is one of the few ap mages who can solo spider before 20 minutes even if she didn't stomp her lane. This is likely due to her ability to buy a straight up tier of the goddess and avoid and early game mana problems. She's only bad in TT if the opposing team took katarina, karma, or syndra; otherwise she's a very powerful hypercarry. I should know, I've played over 7 games with her in TT in the past two weeks. I'm a silver 1 player if that's relevant.

The Red WardenOct 27, 20143 votes

You have to realize though that most balance discussions only apply to SR since that is where Ranked and most games are played on. It would be better if her kit was buffed then nerfed afterward so that it was not too dominate on the other maps