We still don't have a good reason for why the league had to be closed.

The Red Warden·Oct 19, 2014·48 votes·7,580 views

The explanation that Riot has given us is just that the league was too confining, and that it was hard to expand on, and I am worried that this will be the only actual reason given for a few years.

Look at the evidence so far if you don't believe me. The new Azir and Xerath lores could have been written with the league still in place (neither died and was a long time ago), the time between lore events and champ releases take a while (which seems to be the only time we actually recieve new lores), and that the lore team is sounding like they won't actually have anything major like a champion dying off until every champion gets a new bio(which will take years at the current pace).

Meanwhile the Xerath retcon shows how don't really care how much the bios go against the champions established personality. Xerath's qoutes in game are almost all about how he wants more power and knowledge while his lore makes him sound like a "oh no what have I done" type of character.

During the Shurima event every lore piece of him showed Xer as a power hungry villain, yet Riot has already retcon'd that within a month. Now you may wave this off as just the lore team deciding on a better course of actions, but it still shows how the lore team doesn't care that much for the pre-established stories. What does that say about the rest of the old bios and themes of champions and how they might drastically change them?

123 Comments

DotintheparadoxOct 19, 201417 votes

They just don't want to actually think of a plot that would lead any champion to the Institute, even once, for a match.

They had Abernathy for months, he had a track record of ignoring what fans enjoyed in a game's story, and replacing it with boring tropes... and a few bad-asses, but that was not enough to make up for the glaring disregard for already established stories.

Even with Abernathy gone, this lore department has been indoctrinated into that school of thought, and for a community driven game like league, that is a horrible abomination, that is now wreaking havoc on the lore the majority (There was a poll, old lore won (64% of us), HARD, if there are any new lore supporters (8% of you), hold another one, if you win use it as evidence against me.) actually liked.

DG AshabelOct 19, 20147 votes

I wouldn't call Abernathy a bad writer. Say what you will about his narrative, but he writes fairly good dialogue. Saboteur, Destroy All Humans! and Halo: Reach all had very decent writing.

A much bigger problem with Tom Abernathy is that for someone who claims that video game stories are carried more by characters than plot, he has yet to write a single character piece. Halo: Reach mostly had its story carried by the circumstances during which it's set. Destroy All Humans! is driven by action and situational comedy. Saboteur is more about ambiance of the Nazi-occupied Paris in WW2. They're all good stories, but they're not really driven by their characters.

So really, it's more awkward that far as approach to writing is concerned, Abernathy doesn't much like to practice what he preaches.

DotintheparadoxOct 20, 20141 votes

Thank you for this well researched set of points.

Although I would like to point out that Destroy All Humans' comedy was most likely written by an on-staff comedian.

DG AshabelOct 20, 20143 votes

Ha! I didn't know that. Explains a lot why it's the sole comedy work on his list.

Though my point remains in that DAH! is 90% physical slapstick and hardly demonstrates anyone's skill at writing. Hell, Crypto isn't even a character because there's five of him and his in-depth personality is inconsistent at best. He's completely replaceable by every other angry alien.

I did like the story in Reach, but IMO the best moments in it are the "quiet" ones where you get to let the situation weigh down on you. If someone wants to get a character piece from that historical event of the Halo universe, they're better off reading the novel.

ShokahOct 19, 201412 votes

Even worse, it just means all the incoming retcons will eventually be forced into faction to be able to have any interaction, then from there all the minor factions will be aligned to either Demacia (mostly good guys bar a few perhaps) or Noxus (mostly maybe not all...bad guys).

Welcome to the World of Warcraft!

Saint LatonaOct 19, 20143 votes

Every champion they made while League existed in the champions' lives would need to have the following question answered in each champion's biographies.

Why did they join the League in the Institute of War?

DiahaneOct 19, 201422 votes

Every champion they made while League existed in the champions' lives would need to have the following question answered in each champion's biographies.

Why did they join the League in the Institute of War?

And every champion they will make after the retcon will have to answer the question: why should this character be of any interest to anyone and play any role on a possible global scale story? Think of Nidalee as it stands: she's some Kumungu jungle savage; who should interact with her? Only characters framed within factions such as Demacia do have any bearing on the world's history as it stands. For instance, Annie is a complete nobody now. The story could just go this way: Annie just lives in a dangerous place and she is mighty for her age. Wow. Incredible. (Be sure to unlock her in the store for this.) Now back on to narrating how Swain does something actually meaningful for the lives of other characters as well!

AbyssionKnightOct 19, 20144 votes

Every champion they made while League existed in the champions' lives would need to have the following question answered in each champion's biographies.

Why did they join the League in the Institute of War?

And every champion they will make after the retcon will have to answer the question: why should this character be of any interest to anyone and play any role on a possible global scale story? Think of Nidalee as it stands: she's some Kumungu jungle savage; who should interact with her? Only characters framed within factions such as Demacia do have any bearing on the world's history as it stands. For instance, Annie is a complete nobody now. The story could just go this way: Annie just lives in a dangerous place and she is mighty for her age. Wow. Incredible. (Be sure to unlock her in the store for this.) Now back on to narrating how Swain does something actually meaningful for the lives of other characters as well!

Annie's parents, and her entire community were essentially hunted for being opposed to the existing political party. Everyone Annie knows is in exile from the tyranny of Noxus. I'd say there's plenty of motive there for her to try and reform Noxus, and given her personality, that would probably lead to a lot of fiery chaos, and plenty of interaction with noxians, and perhaps ionians or demacians also eager to see Noxus fall.

Emperor of ArimaOct 20, 20142 votes

She's only 5.. or 7

NarasimhaOct 20, 20144 votes

And she already has the power to match a fully grown mage. If I was in Noxus's shoes, I'd be keeping a close eye on her and trying to recruit her as much as possible.

Emperor of ArimaOct 20, 20146 votes

Power, not mind. Yes, If Noxus knows about Annie, they would be doing exactly what you said, but i was talking more about her having anti-Noxian sentiment sophisticated enough to guide reform and chaos. She's still more or less obsessed with playing with Tibbers than doing that stuff lol. Maybe when she grows into a full grown woman, but that is the future

DG AshabelOct 20, 20145 votes

There is no motive for her to try or do anything. She's just a 7-year old girl living with her pacifist parents and their hippie community in the middle of a swamp.

DG AshabelOct 19, 201411 votes

The new champion biographies still ask the question of character motivations, they simply replace "And then he/she/it joined the League of Legends." with a "And then he/she/it went off to wander around Valoran." as an explanation of how they pursue said motivations.

The result is more awkward and counter-productive because whereas a non-aligned champion like Diana Ahri Nidalee Rengar Ryze Zyra could join a conflict because they would have a personal or political reason provided by the Institute and interactions with other characters, now they would have to accidentally and semi-blindly putz their way into it.

The Red WardenOct 19, 20148 votes

I just want to remind people that we still have no idea who the hell Gnar is and why he matters at all.

Before the retcon- who the hell is gnar and why does he matter After the retcon- who the hell is Gnar and why does he matter

NarasimhaOct 20, 20142 votes

I don't think he has to have a specific purpose in the grand scheme of things. And why should he? Why can't he just be there because he's there? And who knows, just being there is enough to cause tremors too. What if a Noxian search part stumbles on him and tries to attack him? What if he got captured by Zaunites for research? Plenty of possibilities.

DG AshabelOct 20, 20148 votes

Because if he's so completely and utterly pointless to the grand scheme of things, then there is no point to him to exist in the game due to him not being a champion and certainly not a legend.

NarasimhaOct 20, 20141 votes

And thats why he's not a champion in the LEAGUE. He's just a...guy (you know what I mean), trying to find his way in a new and unknown world.

Earl EulrichOct 20, 20146 votes

So...and why should any player care about this? There´s just no connection at all anymore to what´s going on. Even Mortal Combat has a way more engulfing story behind it.

DG AshabelOct 20, 20149 votes

He is a character in a video game called League of Legends.

If being just a random guy with temper tantrums is enough to become a legend, may I also volunteer my neighbor's 6-year old daughter and the pizza delivery boy working in the cafe across the street to become champions in LoL? Sounds like they fit.

DotintheparadoxOct 20, 20146 votes

So, actually think of a good story to lead them to this, instead of giving three lines of text, or a story with glaring plot-holes and tropes that don't fit the characters at all?

The institute also didn't have to be the end-all be-all of an individual champion's story. For us to play a champion in game, then technically they would only have to participate in at least one match, and a judgment, for it to be canon. After the judgment, they don't have to stay at the institute, they could go wherever they wanted, and although it would definitely catch flak (Since every champion is at least someone's fave... yes, even Urgot shut up.), they could also die and stay dead, but also since this is a game with a massive community, it should do what it did in the beginning and have lore matches. Like actually deciding who would win the war of the Freljord, or the Kalamanda conflict.

Then, even the people who had no prior attachment to the lore might actually want to know about it. Dawngate, an EA sponsored title no less, does this, and it's just plain sad that Riot has been outdone in such a way.

OuttaControl56Oct 19, 20143 votes

Its not that hard to understand why the League was not good for stories. There would be no civil war in Freljord, Azir's and Xertah's beef would be finished in a single match. The league is a superior way of dealing with conflicts, period. This was established with what occurred in both Kalamanda and Ionia. Both were spiraling towards conflict and devision, both times the League stepped in and solved the problem.

Thats bad. Good for the world stage, good for the existence of the League, but ultimately bad if you want to see Ashe and Sejuani duel in the Tundra, or would like to see Katarina cross blades with Garen in a dark alleyway in Bilgewater. If you have a problem, go to the IoW. There's no reason to inflict collateral damage.

Thats at least why I think Riot decided to start over. If the new lore will be good, hard to tell. We've had so little of the new Runeterra exposed to us. All we know about is Shurima, Noxus and maybe Freljord. What about Demacia, the Void, Ionia, etc etc etc?

We'll see. Once all of the Factions have been fleshed out... THEN we'll see if the global Runeterra has better story-telling than the JoJ lore. Of course, how long we'll have to wait for all of the Factions is another bloody question and ultimately we just need to be patient, which of course we've been for SO DARN LONG. As a person who joined LoL in 2012, I can attest to how dismal this wait has been, and I can only guess how painful it has been for others.

DiahaneOct 19, 201413 votes

Its not that hard to understand why the League was not good for stories. There would be no civil war in Freljord, Azir's and Xertah's beef would be finished in a single match. The league is a superior way of dealing with conflicts, period. This was established with what occurred in both Kalamanda and Ionia. Both were spiraling towards conflict and devision, both times the League stepped in and solved the problem.

Thats bad. Good for the world stage, good for the existence of the League, but ultimately bad if you want to see Ashe and Sejuani duel in the Tundra, or would like to see Katarina cross blades with Garen in a dark alleyway in Bilgewater. If you have a problem, go to the IoW. There's no reason to inflict collateral damage.

Thats at least why I think Riot decided to start over. If the new lore will be good, hard to tell. We've had so little of the new Runeterra exposed to us. All we know about is Shurima, Noxus and maybe Freljord. What about Demacia, the Void, Ionia, etc etc etc?

We'll see. Once all of the Factions have been fleshed out... THEN we'll see if the global Runeterra has better story-telling than the JoJ lore. Of course, how long we'll have to wait for all of the Factions is another bloody question and ultimately we just need to be patient, which of course we've been for SO DARN LONG. As a person who joined LoL in 2012, I can attest to how dismal this wait has been, and I can only guess how painful it has been for others.

The argument that the IoW inhibits all conflicts is an oversimplification. The IoW did not stop the war between Noxus and Ionia, because Ionia wasn't part of the League. Then Ionia, after a whole lot of protests and Lee Sin setting himself on fire in such instance, managed to get an agreement with Noxus on settling the thing with the IoW. It's a different process from what you implied, but it's not really the point I want to make, I mention it just for the sake of it.

The point is that, as many have argued here on the boards, the IoW is not omnipotent nor omniscient and even in Kalamanda they had to sacrifice an unvaluable Nexus and risk the lives of hundreds of summoners to pull off their time-stopping stunt. If Demacia and Noxus were to go at war all over the IoW couldn't simply deal with the logistics involved in getting hundreds of Summoners all over the world to stop the war, all the while depleting their stock of ancient artifacts. Besides, the IoW was composed of summoners, all of whom had a nationality and/or an affiliation. They were a human organization which showed its flaws: there could be corruption inside it, as the Kalamanda arc points out. After the Kalamanda conspiracy, nations had a reason to support and trust the IoW less, thus depleting its resources. Internal conflict could have easily started inside the IoW's factions. The whole point is that the IoW was a constraint only as much as it was a plot device and as much as they wanted it to be. It's not hard to devise ways for the IoW to fail, causing mayhem or whatever, it just takes the effort to think about it.

Regarding champions being unable to clash in the old setting, that is not true: Malzahar and Kassadin clashed twice outside the FoJ and the second time they killed Karthus as a side-effect. They were stopped, at last, it's true, but only because the second time they fought near the IoW's facilities: if they had fought elsewhere like the first time, they could have come to a bloody end. It was the writers' will not to have neither of them dying, but they could have done it, the setting itself didn't prevent it. The only thing the setting prevented was champions killing each other at the Institute of War, but the JoJ reported widely how champions were completely free to act and be in danger outside of it.

OuttaControl56Oct 19, 20141 votes

The Ionian occupation issue was settled in the IoW. Noxus won. Then Lee Sin had his protest, and they had a rematch, which Ionia won. Everything went through the League. Sure, politicians called for a rematch, but it was the IoW who sanctioned and held all of the responsibilities of the outcome being enforced.

Its not that the League is omnipresent.

They don't need to be.

Cities don't want to engage in wars. Its a needless expenditure when you could just settle matters on the Field of Justice. Thats exactly my point.

Certain oddballs, like Kassadin, will go off and do their own thing because they believe that leaving things in the hands of the summoners. Sure. Champions are free to do their own thing.

But Noxus and Demacia are more than willing to just settle disputes on the Fields of Justice. That is paramount in the Noxus occupation of Ionia, as shown above. Instead of starting another bloody war, they went to the League. Both of them. Ashe and Sejuani would rather duke it out on the Howling Abyss than put Freljord to fire and sword. Thats the entire reason for the Queen of the Freljord quest, right?

So global conflict is unnecessary, nations aren't going to make their champions fight or move around. In fact, nations would want their champions close and never leaving the boarders in case something happens to them.

DotintheparadoxOct 20, 20144 votes

I don't think you understand any of the people in charge of the factions.

Swain, is nearly completely unpredictable at the moment, the only thing we know is that he believes in Noxian supremacy, which Demacia inhibits, and believes Noxus could beat them, it would degenerate into an honor shrouded pissing contest between the two most militarily minded groups, and they have their recently-founded science fan-clubs to back them up.

Sejuani, Ashe, and Lissandra want to kill each-other, but they want to minimize actual damage to the Freljord, they each have factions of approximately the same strength, with several other champions on their sides, they used the League to attract others to their cause. Also the Freljord is the largest area on Runeterra, it actually counts as a nation, unlike the others which are city-states, if it goes into full-blown war, it could easily spread.

Global conflict is dangerous, if one more breaks out, it can actually crack their planet in half.

OuttaControl56Oct 20, 20141 votes

No, I'm very much aware. I don't think you understand:

Swain is aware of the military superiority of Noxus, but did he resort to that? No, he used espionage and political savey, along with the Black Rose's cloaks and daggers. He has a completely different agenda in mind than Darkwill, who was much more militaristic, the architect of the invasion of Ionia. Thats all we really know, so I can't make any judgments on this, though so far he's acted very differently than someone who is mobilizing the troops.

Meanwhile, Demacia is building a wall around its boarder, completely defensive in posture. They aren't looking for a fight, though they are definitely preparing for one.

Exactly, which is why Sejuani, Ashe and Lissandra all have incentive to take their civil war into the Institute and not start amplify the conflict that is already occurring in the Freljord. This is my entire point: The Institute solves all disputes by providing an alternative that minimizes conflict in the real world. As it should be doing.

And this is why the Lore Team got rid of it. It was too good at its job and stories would be really contradictory if a nation could solve any dispute by going to daddy IoW, but instead wasted all of its resources on a dramatic campaign.

Without the IoW, the city states have to resort to that Heroic Age where battles raged and champions dueled. WE HAVE YET TO SEE THIS, something that I keep on saying but nobody listens. I support the lore change, but I am very much aware that currently it is SUPER underwhelming and progress is hard to measure at all.

DotintheparadoxOct 20, 20143 votes

So, you just want to see everybody fighting in a big pile, creative.

OuttaControl56Oct 20, 20141 votes

Wonderful misinterpretation just to belittle me. Jeeeeez bro....

I just don't want things to always end up being decided at the IoW. Every international event ends up as such. Its not about individual stories, these exist regardless if the IoW exists or not.

But every war eventually finished with a League match begs the question... Why not just go to the League and cut out the conflict? And I feel that as the lore extends with the IoW, that question will become harder and harder to avoid.

DotintheparadoxOct 20, 20146 votes

It's not a misinterpretation, you just want the entire world to get into a big fight, there's nothing holding anyone back anymore, that just stupid, out right war is just boring by this point, with the institute, you dealt with espionage, back-stabbing, political cat and mouse games, where the champions could actually interact without constant threat of death.

This is also a world of old-world honor for the most part, they don't want to stop hating each-other.

OuttaControl56Oct 21, 20141 votes

Now you're just being mean.

"Of course here couldn't be other factors that could keep the nations from slaughtering one another. No way there could be anything other than the IoW to prevent a Rune War."

Stop belittling something that you're not even trying to reason with or understand.

For example:

Noxus can't demolish Demacia because Demacia built a massive freaking wall. Noxus can't invade Ionia because Ionia has parlayed the aid of Bilgewater Pirates that prevent an ocean crossing.

Laugh and chortle all you like, but you're just being shortsighted and condescending for no basis.

DG AshabelOct 21, 20144 votes

I'm not sure "But we could always have extremely convoluted, illogical and migraine-inducing justifications for occasional ceasefires instead of a single convenient and well-established one, all so we could have lulzy indiscriminate bloodshed that doesn't amount to anything the rest of the time." is as good of a counter-argument as you think it is.

Actually, I'm fairly sure it isn't.

Legacy of XionOct 21, 20143 votes

I'm not sure "But we could always have extremely convoluted, illogical and migraine-inducing justifications for occasional ceasefires instead of a single convenient and well-established one, all so we could have lulzy indiscriminate bloodshed that doesn't amount to anything the rest of the time." is as good of a counter-argument as you think it is.

Actually, I'm fairly sure it isn't.

I have something to add.

It doesnt matter if Demacia is invading Noxus, Bilgewater launching an attack onnthe Shadow Isles or Sejuani putting her fur bikini on and charging down Ashe.

You will still be ten random people from this place called Runeterra killing each othe for forty minutes or more.

Runeterra could be swallowed into the Void and I'll still be running down mid lane firing Lasers as Magical Girl of Demacia.

Sigh...

DG AshabelOct 21, 20146 votes

Y U P

A character's death before the retcon: a number of summoners who worked with them a lot have combined their fond memories of the character in order to manifest a shadow of them during battles, thus honoring their legacy as a warrior through future battles.

A character's death after the retcon: lol why would you want a story in a game they just like fight and kill each other and there are all these particles and it's totally cool amirite lmao.

OuttaControl56Oct 21, 20141 votes

Thats where you're miss the point, again.

Because the IoW, your single convenient justification why a war can't happen is exactly the problem.

War is outdated! IoW fixes all through a single competition. Why even bother with conflict if you can just settling things with a single skirmish with five champions. If you can't go to war to solve issues or assert dominance, why bother with the whole bloody conflict deal too? If everything will end up being settled on the Fields of Justice, why not skip the fighting and go straight to the IoW?

Thats what Ionia and Noxus decided to do. They both went with a rematch instead of sending forward the troops. Boy how exciting and lore building, an hour of competition. Glorious! Karma and Swain are really going to develop a rivalry in that period of time, don'tcha think? Maybe they'll do it again in another month for another hour, gee whiz! Imagine the dialogue!

(Insert typical Midlane banter)

WHAT A DEEP STORY.

My god if you try and drag me into a circle I will be very unhappy.

DG AshabelOct 21, 20145 votes

War is outdated! IoW fixes all through a single competition. Why even bother with conflict if you can just settling things with a single skirmish with five champions. If you can't go to war to solve issues or assert dominance, why bother with the whole bloody conflict deal too? If everything will end up being settled on the Fields of Justice, why not skip the fighting and go straight to the IoW?

Because when I'm Sejuani and I have a hungry boar, an angry viking, a giant armored bear and an army of drunken mooks, you better bet I'd want to show my awesome viking superiority by going to war. Institute of War? Ha! They're complaining about all those runes and magics and parlor tricks, but there won't be any here. There will be swords and axes and I will ride in on my awesome boar and I will gore people and drink booze from the skulls of my enemies.

Not everyone is Karma. If that was the case, Freljord wouldn't have been locked in civil war during the many years between the Institute's foundation and the first issue of JoJ (which is why Ashe finally made her push toward unification), and they wouldn't go right back to war as soon as Sejuani and Lissandra made themselves known.

DG AshabelOct 19, 201411 votes

This was established with what occurred in both Kalamanda and Ionia. Both were spiraling towards conflict and devision, both times the League stepped in and solved the problem.

But that's not what happened in either case. I recommend actually reading those stories to completion, because the Noxus vs. Ionia war had the League as a political tool used by Karma to her advantage. As for Kalamanda, the Institute actually staged the conflict there and used a very hazardous spell they weren't supposed to use in order to contaminate the area and take it for themselves. Neither of those actually had the Institute as a solution for the conflict.

OuttaControl56Oct 19, 20143 votes

In both cases the League came out stronger because of it. In Kalamanda, the league halted the actions of Demacia, its allies, and Noxus and their allies and took Kalamanda for itself. The fact that it was staged means little, because they both instigated and resolved the conflict. Risk doesn't factor in much.

For Ionia, the Institute was literally the solution. I don't understand how you misinterpret the lore. Noxus won the the first battle and stayed until Lee Sin had his protest, then agreed to a rematch. They lost the second tournament, packed up their bags and went home. End of story. Literally. So what if Karma gains more influence, the Institute did all of the enforcement, not her. She just called for a re-match along with Irelia, thanks to Lee Sin's demonstration.

DG AshabelOct 20, 20147 votes

Sorry to say, but you're the one misinterpreting lore here.

Kalamanda The League didn't actually stop anything. LeBlanc putting on Jarvan's underwear and screaming at Swain for a bit is about as much of a conflict as me dressing up as Batman on Halloween and accosting IronStylus outside Riot's offices. It's certainly not enough of a justification to put together a magic spell that risks the lives of 400 mages, soldiers stationed in the area and numerous civilians, as well as contaminates a small town beyond repair.

On the other hand, the build-up and aftermath of that event included:

Tense political relationships between Bilgewater and other cities after Noxus framed them for sinking military ships.
Swain and therefore the Black Rose taking over Noxus after murdering most of the Darkwill clan.
Numerous riots sparking in Demacia and Noxus.
Katarina and Talon openly coming into opposition with Swain, thus marking themselves as enemies of the Black Rose.
Jarvan joining in the investigation concerning the disappearance of Marcus du Couteau.
Skarner waking up to discover a world in ruins.

Noxus vs. Ionia Once again, let's consider the following things:

The Institute's existence is the only reason why this conflict happened at all. Not only because Noxus wasn't allowed to fight anyone else, but because their geographical position means any move against Ionia would end in them pincered between Ionia, Demacia and Piltover and crying for mercy while Bilgewater cackles and ransacks their ships. The Institute keeping Demacia at bay is the only circumstance under which the invasion can play out.
The Institute didn't stop the war, Ionia joined the organization to ensure better international security after trouncing Noxus and driving them all the way to the southern provinces.
The Institute was actually legally forbidden from interfering with the Noxus vs. Ionia matters after the first League match for the southern provinces. It was Karma's political campaign centered around Lee Sin's protest that led to Noxus requesting a League rematch, given that it was the only way for them to save face. While the Institute was used to resolve the conflict over the southern Ionian provinces with minimal bloodshed, it was established champions who drove the resolution of said conflict.
Even after that resolution, there were still the issues of Ahri being born from the magic released during the war, Yasuo being framed for his master's murder, Riven's exile and Varus's vengeful killing spree directed at Noxian officials.

In both cases, resolving one single conflict (a fake one in one of the cases) sparked numerous other ones, with plenty of them not being resolved up to this point. Care to explain to me how that makes for an efficient way of handling conflicts? Or is it only a conflict to you when it involves exaggerated body counts of numerous NPC soldiers?

The League was founded to stop Rune Wars and environmental destruction. It wasn't founded to stop conflicts, else it would have been dissolved years ago due to disastrous inefficiency.

OuttaControl56Oct 20, 20141 votes

Kalamanda:

Risk 400 lives, along with a champion's, shut down Noxian, Piltoverian, Zuanite, Demacian, Yordle, Freljord forces to enforce a ceasefire. Look at the JoJ, they were literally going to start a war there.

Push forward an agreement to grant the Kalamanda mines to the League alone.

I'm thinking its a good deal for the Institute of War, I dunno. Pay-off was good, man.

Tensions between Bilgewater and other city states was never good to begin with. They're pirates. Gangplank hasn't left the Institute of War to become Pirate King and unilaterally command the Bilgewater forces, so its safe to say no massive war is going to happen because of this. Perfect example of the problem with the IoW, actually. Gangplank chose to go to it instead of commanding an entire freaking nation. Like wtf? How much story could have been made from a massive oceanic campaign led by the Saltwater Scourge?
Swain taking power surprised little and Katarina even admitted that power shifts freely in Noxus. A "coup" means little in the grand scheme, in fact, it was presented to be more of an election if anything.
Oh no, riots. Did they change anything? Did they start any wars? No? Then its safe to discount them.
Katarina and Talon never announced this. Only their investigation of the Kalamanda incident could warrant backlash, but by Volume 31 they received no punishment after Darkwill was taken care of. Everything after is headcanon. Katarina and Talon would never be stupid to write a letter to the Grand General declaring opposition to him. They'd hang in an hour, tops. Or lose their heads. Either or. So right now, they comply and follow orders, even though they hold suspicions and work against him in secret. For now, Swain and the Black Rose are aware of the possibility but uncertain.
Jarvan's involvement leads to a search for a man. It does not lead to a start of a battle or war. Truth be told this is a story is more focused on Du Coteau and the Black Rose than it is connected to the League.
Skarner is a wandering champion. His lore isn't hindered or affected by the IoW in the slightest, so its removal means little. The retcon, on the other hand, holy moley that changed things...

Ionia:

This reason makes no sense. Noxus picked a fight with Ionia because it could, not because they were forced to. They weren't backed into a corner and invaded Ionia as a way to escape. And once again, while a war did occur, the IoW put an end to it. There isn't any more occupation, there is no interaction between Ionian and Noxian champs anymore. If there are, you can bet your rump they'll be in the Fields of Justice, because thats what they did to settle the war twice in a row. TWICE.
Wrong, Ionia ended the occupation by winning the second league match. That effectively ended the occupation and hence, the war.
Noxus did not request it, they accepted it. Amazing, that Noxus decided to go the League instead of giving the middle finger to Ionia and daring them to start another war. Imagine the stories that could have happened if the League didn't solve things in a simple rematch.... Are you catching my drift?
Ahri is not going to do anything bad, she just wants humanity without stealing human souls. Varus is a problem within Ionia, not to mention the fact, the League's removal did not affect his lore in the slightest, he came into being regardless if the IoW was canon or not. Yasuo's story and Riven's story are the same deal, why the hell are the in the IoW? Their story isn't hindered anymore with the awkward scenario that Yasuo is going to the league instead of finding a way to restore his honor.

The method to stop another Rune War is to prevent conflicts. The IoW provides a cheap and effective alternative to disputes, at the cost of development in characters and their individual struggles. All of these consequences you pose aren't going to lead to future conflicts, just future League matches that will settle things. Also, singular character stories occur regardless. You feelin me mon?

DG AshabelOct 20, 20145 votes

Kalamanda

You're the one who should be checking the JoJ. You somehow imagined forces from four factions that were nowhere near the incident and you're still insisting that there was actually a conflict when it was confirmed to be LeBlanc disguised as Jarvan and fighting Swain to make it look like there was a conflict. That's the entire point of the Kalamanda conspiracy. There was never actually a conflict there. There couldn't be because Jarvan IV, the commanding officer on the Demacian side, was nowhere near Kalamanda and thus couldn't give an order for an outright war.

There can still be a story of an oceanic campaign because nothing in the Institute prevents it. Also, you were probably looking for the word "relations" in the first sentence. Yes, relations between Bilgewater and other factions have never been good, but now there would be more tension. More tension = more conflict.
Katarina said he made a "strong move", not that power shifts freely in Noxus. Anyone who actually followed Noxian lore will know that the Darkwill clan has been in charge of the city-state for centuries. This also doesn't change the fact that Swain coming into power can potentially trigger new conflicts with other factions.
They didn't change anything because the narrative team erased the entire lore instead of following up on that plot point, so your argument is kinda bad there. Being retconned out of existence =/= not changing anything.
Yeah, I'm sure Swain is totally happy about those two revealing that he's been manipulating the Institute from behind the scenes for several years. He will welcome them into Noxus and do nothing at all. It's not like JoJ mentions Katarina seeking sanctuary in Demacia or anything.
How is Jarvan IV coming into a more direct conflict with Swain by searching for a man who might know about all of Swain's manipulation and the disappearance of the previous High Summoner, not a conflict? Once again, you seem to think the only conflicts are wars with numerous people dying, but that restricts the idea of conflict more than it expands.
Skarner's personal conflict was still introduced via the Institute's actions, so your argument is kinda pointless there.

Oops, ran out of symbols there. To be continued.

DG AshabelOct 20, 20145 votes

Ionia vs. Noxus

First of all, Noxus picked a fight with Ionia because it could, but also because it couldn't pick a fight with anyone else due to more stern laws for international engagement. Second, the Institute didn't put an end to the war; both matches were specifically for the control of the southern provinces after the war ended on a standstill. Third, the Institute is still necessary for the war to occur because Valoran's map indicates that Noxus and Zaun are pincered between Demacia, Piltover, Ionia, Bilgewater and Bandle City. There is no way for them to survive a war with Ionia without the Institute to keep those city-states at bay. Read the lore.
Ionia won back the southern provinces which were considered Noxian territory at the time. The actual war was long over by then and people were settling down enough to start mixed Noxian/Ionian families. Read the lore.
Your drift is still that a conflict only counts when it's a large bloody war with an exaggerated body count. It's a boring, uninspired drift that limits the number of storylines to an unfortunate degree, and is precisely why people dislike the retcon; because the narrative team seems to think that the only time a conflict counts is when it's noisier than a Michael Bay movie. That said, Noxus was still bullied into the second rematch by a very aggressive political campaign from Karma; the Institute still had little involvement in the political circumstances surrounding the match. Read the lore.
For someone who argues about how the reboot is good because it provides more room for characters' personal stories, you sure are quick to cheapen their personal conflicts into something that doesn't really count as soon as it doesn't work in favor of your argument. In the meantime, your argument completely ignores the part where their personal conflicts were once again created through circumstances brought forth by the Institute's existence.

So no, I'm not really feeling you because you can't seem to decide whether characters are important or not, and you keep cheapening events of the established story by explaining them away as "not real conflicts". None of your argument actually relies on explaining why the Institute affected the story poorly, it relies entirely on treating the established characters and events with contempt.

It's very hard to feel your arguments when they're built entirely around disrespect for the material.

OuttaControl56Oct 20, 20141 votes

No u read lore. U.

The entire basis for the rematch is because of a rekindling of hostilities. Lee Sin's protest represented a growing population (Varus) that wanted to boot Noxus off.

Noxus wasn't going to just let themselves get evicted, some a conclusion had to be reached.

It wasn't reached in a war where people ended up deciding to parcel out land....

No they just played a match and the results decided it. Noxus left. No conflict, no battle, no chance for Darius to cross blades with Irelia.

The precedent is bad, because if this was reached so simply, city states are more convinced to skip the middleman (War, battle, loss, Champions fighting champion) and instead jumping straight to the conclusion (LoL match and then treaty signed and carried out.)

Boy, geopolitics would be soooooooooo interesting. (Not really)

What the hell? What? Families? What? WHAT? Read JoJ issue 12 PLEASE, I don't understand... Battle won, Noxian forces withdraw from provinces. Ionian governance is reinstated to the territories previously occupied.Possible conflict avoided. End of story.

No more Noxian/Ionian interaction that we know of. Factions do not count.

No, Noxus agreed to a rematch, they weren't intimidated. If they were they'd back up and try to appease the Ionian people rather than take them head-on in the rift. Draven would have a severely lower chance of meeting Varus. Not impossible, duh, but the canon would have to do some gymnastics.
Where the heck did you pull this from? Really, where am I cheapening stories? I'm just saying canon. Ahri doesn't steal souls anymore: canon. Varus is in Ionia: canon. That's not cheapening, dude.

It's not built on disrespect, just critique. Currently it's still number 1 in my book, but that doesn't mean it has some flaws.

DG AshabelOct 20, 20144 votes

This doesn't even address anything about my observation on how the conflict would have gone on the global scale without the Institute, namely that it wouldn't really happen because Noxus would have been smashed in a month. It mostly argues about how the rematch is bad because it kept things escalating into a long-term violent bloodshed, which goes back to me pointing out that you only seem to think something counts as a conflict when it's a huge war with explosives in it.
Yeah, you might want to also read the 11 issues that came before it and all the tidbits about Ionia's relationship with Noxus. You know, the ones that mention the war ended 7 years ago? The one where Noxus argues plenty of its citizens have settled down on Ionian soil?
I didn't say they were intimidated; I said they were bullied. Karma forced them into a very particular situation where they needed to break the Institute decision of "no more Noxus vs. Ionia rematches for the next two decades" in order to save face, otherwise they would be seen as cowards. The Institute still had less to do with the procession than actual champions.
You're cheapening them because you claim they don't count as conflicts created through the Noxian/Ionian war, which is once again possible only in the unique geopolitical environment provided by the Institute. You're dismissing them by saying "Nuh uh personal conflicts don't count for why Institute of War can be good, only for why the retcon can be."

It's built on disrespect because you keep on claiming the story's unique political foundation makes for a bad story, even though it's the only thing that made it unique. Large wars filled with bloodshed won't make the story unique, neither will they make characters' stories more personal and meaningful. They will simply be yet another fantasy war story of which there are hundreds, with an additional embarrassing part where they make up a story for a video game despite not being actually related to a video game (thus eliminating the player's reasons for investment or caring about it).

OuttaControl56Oct 20, 20141 votes

Problem:

It was going to be a freaking conflict. The armies marching towards one another was not some light show. It was real. It would have led to deaths. It would have lead to a WHOLE bunch more drama and anger than just Bilgewater being blamed for random stuff.

Conflict with what? Conflict with who? As long as Gangplank lollygags in the IoW, these conflicts are just like the riots in the city. Sure they're details, but they're not an actual story where a champion actually shifts the geopolitical world. They're just random pirates raiding random ships. You really want a story about Ted, Jim and Harry and their life of the SS Swagger and how they pillage Yordle ships? I mean, its good stuff, but ultimately doesn't amount to anything. Just daily pirate life stuff.
She also said that the strong rise to power. One could argue that the Darkwill lost their touch. It is clear that the Darkwill weren't the only house with a monopoly, as shown by Annie's backstory. Crown Prince Raschallion? Doesn't sound Darkwill-y, lol. And once again, we don't know Swain's motives or how he'll address things. I think this is a moot point.
Exactly... My... Point... Now that the IoW is gone, we can actually see Noxians and Ionians cross blades again, or interact. Its freaking inevitable since now there isn't some group hosting a Fields of Justice tournament to decide things, keeping their interactions formal and quick.
Once again: Never explicitly. All that was revealed was that the IoW was manipulating things. That was the official release. The rumors that Swain was involved do exist, but with the official story its not hard for anyone to charge Swain with that. He can't say Katarina believes that, can't pin down that she started that rumor, or even believes it. Obviously, he's not blind to the threat, duh... He needs one single inch of confirmation, and then he'd pounce.
These personal conflicts aren't related to the IoW. The Black Rose/Swain infiltrating Demacian nobility and stuff is something that I believe in, regardless of the IoW exists or not. The idea that the Swain was behind Du Coteau's disappearance is going to exist regardless of if the IoW exists or not. At least, it better. These sort of storylines don't need to die because the IoW is gone.
Thanks to the retcon, not anymore. Now we actually might see him do something.

Pay attention to the word "Might". That implies doubt. Because Riot could just as well never mention him again.

Which would suck.

DG AshabelOct 20, 20145 votes

Yes, it would have led to deaths. It wouldn't have led to war because only one side had a commander on hand. The battle would have ended the moment Jarvan IV would have crawled out of Marcus's basement together with Katarina and said "say wot m8". That's why the Institute rushed to "stop" it with an exaggerated and extremely hazardous spell. Because there was no actual conflict, only a thinly veiled excuse for Noxus to screw Kalamanda over.

And how would the Institute stop Gangplank from shifting the geopolitical world? Sure didn't stop Ashe. Or Karma. Or Swain. Or Lissandra.
We actually don't know how long ago Annie's "tribe" moved out of Noxus, so there is that. There is also the part where her lore has been referenced very little over the years and was likely meant to be reworked with the retcon or not. Still doesn't address the part where Swain rising to power opens up room for new political conflicts.
So your point is that the war that might happen in the new lore is superior to the one that might have happened in the old one because... bzuh? Actually, your point seems very unfinished there.
Katarina outright stated "Swain gave Kalamanda to the Institute of War". She had the documents to prove it, authorities made numerous arrests based on them. That's as explicit as it can possibly be. Also doesn't change the part where a conflict started between Swain and Katarina due to the incident.
How in blazes is Swain being possibly related to the disappearance of the Institute's original High Summoner not Institute-related? How is Jarvan investigating the web of corruption woven by Swain within the Institute not Institute-related? This is making less and less sense.
Yeah, we'll see him sit in a cave and be angry and merciless. Or maybe we'll see him pointlessly wander Valoran like all other non-aligned champions are doing. Sounds fun, huh?

OuttaControl56Oct 21, 20142 votes

A slaughter of Demacian soldiers doesn't just go over as "lets take this rationally and put the pieces together in a rational and balanced way..."

Hell no Demacian citizens would want blood.

Of course the league couldn't stop political shifts, but it resolved conflicts like nobody's business and was on its way to be the standard for dealing with international disputes. My entire point. Restated. Again.
The point of Annie's family clearly provides a reminder that political power is as fluid as water in Noxus. It doesn't matter when it happened, only that it did. An entire order expelled, fleeing, from their own country. Pretty rough.
EXACTLY! Completely uncertain. Loyalties questioned by the pound. Daggers in the dark, skirmishes and iron-skin diplomates. Without the IoW, countries don't have some middle-man to establish some ritual or standard of communication. Things can be as formal as a ball or luncheon or as punctual or brutal as a outpost burnt to ashes.

But once again, none of this is certain. Riot needs to do this. Whether or not they do it is not up to me.

Now this, this is a funny one, because with our knowledge its easy to infer that Swain made a deal with IoW. But once again, common knowledge in Runeterra was that Swain agreed to the resolution which ended the conflict by relinquishing Kalamanda to the IoW. He supported the pact, as did Demacia and the rest of the world. This is what Katarina means by giving up Kalamanda, she means that he supported the peace.

Of course, Swain can have his suspicions that she meant it literally, but this isn't proof enough.

Tough, the IoW doesn't exist anymore according to the new lore. Its done. The disappearance of General DuCoteau is going to have to change a bit, I'm afraid. As a champion story, it has many elements that make it something to preserve (as in General Du Coteau's disappearance), but certain factors have to change (IoW corruption as being the conspiracy he went to uncover.) Ultimately its up to Riot. Once again, they best not *&^% it up.
Purposefully lowering your expectations for the champion's lore and potential role in a story isn't respectful or honest. There is a hell of a lot more that Skarner can be, don't purposefully shorten your imagination just to make his lore change look stupid. He might be defending the Braken for all you know, but no, apparently you just think he's some scorpion staring at the wall muttering to himself. I don't think Riot's that bad at writing. (Plz no passionately passionate 3rd grader jokes)

DG AshabelOct 21, 20143 votes

One staged skirmish doesn't equal slaughter of Demacian soldiers.

A point that was already proven wrong through numerous conflicts listed during this incident. Which is why I said your argument is built around contempt, you treat every conflict that doesn't support your argument as not a real one.
Annie's backstory involves everyone who spoke up against General Darkwill's heavy-handed politics being exiled from Noxus shortly after a failed coup. It does nothing to show that power in Noxus is fluid, only that Boram Darkwill ruled the city with an iron fist.
So your point is hollow excitement over something that might or might not happen, peppered by looking down on people who pointed out that the same something could have happened with the Institute in place. Got it.
No, she meant is that he created the right circumstances for the Institute to destroy and take over Kalamanda in exchange for being propelled to Grand General status via the same circumstances. Katarina never would have called him strong otherwise. You are trying very hard to rewrite the entire event so there was still somehow a conflict that the Institute somehow stopped, and it's getting kinda silly.
So your counter-argument to the fact that a very interesting conflict existed despite you saying that they don't is "Well whatever, it doesn't exist anymore". How nice.
He can be a lot of things, but the fact is that he won't be Skarner as the fans know him. He will be some giant scorpion who is also named Skarner, but his identity and personal conflicts have completely shifted and people are allowed to no longer give a damn about him.

OuttaControl56Oct 21, 20141 votes

These numerous conflicts aren't nations at war. Katarina and Jarvan searching for General Du Coteau isn't pitching Noxus and Demacia against one another. All its doing is pissing of Swain, if they do succeed it will just prove to Swain Katarina and the Du Coteau house is against him. He won't declare war on Demacia, nothing major will happen on international scale. Sure Noxus might change, but Demacia couldn't care less.
This is just lame on top of lame.

The High Command had just put down a coup attempt from the self-proclaimed Crown Prince Raschallion, and a crack down on any form of dissent against the new government was underway.

Where does Darkwill come into the picture? Even more interesting, this was a "new government", even with the failed Coup attempt. We don't know it was Darkwill or not, and once again, it doesn't matter. Noxian political power is temporary and fickle.

Hollow excitement? You make it seem that the nations will forever be staring at each other, as if they won't poke and prod and take a swing at one another from time to time. In your eyes, nothing happened Cold War because America never invaded the USSR.... Its not that simple.
No, you're just refusing to take what she said for face value: Swain agreed to the agreement that Kalamanda would be owned by the Institute. Its a strong move, its one that takes nuts, especially since you were in the heat of battle only days before and could easily just flip of Demacia and the peace agreement. Especially since the Demacian scum cast the first stone.
Well, its true, but what you said was false. That was not all that I said. The Du Coteau storyline can be kept the same if Riot wants to keep it that way, and I think we all agree that it should. The topic on what conspiracy General Du Coteau is unraveling is what would have to change, then. So might as well go hibernate and see if Riot follows through in the next year or so.
Not if Riot just reasserts that whatever he's guarding is the Braken's dormant bodies and that he's untrustworthy of the world to lash out against those who approach his dormant comrades. Maybe Nasus and Renketon were sent to deal with him the day that the Shuriman Empire went Kablooie....

Oh, wait, we're supposed to assume that Riot won't do anything for Skarner ever again. Right....

DG AshabelOct 21, 20143 votes

And once again you cheapen characters' personal stories and conflicts by claiming they don't matter as much as nations at war. You should really stop doing that.
We actually know that Boram Darkwill has reigned over Noxus for centuries, presumably by prolonging his lifespan through necromancy. The "new government" part was probably something they wrote in but soon retconned, or something they miswrote. Do keep in mind that her biography also states the coup failed, so it couldn't have been a new government.
Actually, you are the one who keeps on arguing about how none of the conflict in a Cold War-type setting created by the Institute is real conflict because it's not all-out war. And your excitement feels hollow because you basically claim unrest in Noxus and Demacia being retconned is good because there is a chance those two cities might murder each other instead.
Swain wouldn't have to agree to Kalamanda being owned by the Institute because by general rules, any area severely contaminated by magic automatically falls into the Institute's care. You know, much like the Summoner's Rift and original Twisted Treeline did. Once again, you're kind of coming up with these insane interpretations which are completely off-base for Katarina's role within the story arc.
You said "Tough, the IoW doesn't exist anymore according to the new lore. Its done. The disappearance of General DuCoteau is going to have to change a bit, I'm afraid". Yes, you dismissed my point that there was an interesting conflict revolving around the Institute. Even worse, you claimed that it's okay, they can retcon it into some other other conspiracy not related to the Institute. Once again, you treated established lore with dismissive contempt in order to prove how the new lore is an improvement. Your arguments are consistently not "This new lore is better because," they are "I'm going to insult the old lore until it looks like the new is better".
Given that the Kalamanda conflict doesn't exist anymore because it was so tightly woven around the Institute, no. Skarner's identity has shifted heavily. It's like comparing G1 Optimus Prime with the movie one, which is never a compliment.

John BerserkOct 20, 20141 votes

Playing devil's advocate here for a sec, but, looking at Azir and Xerath's new short stories, why would they even need the IoW? I mean yeah they can fit it in easily, but is it really necessary? I dont know, to me, it'd seem like it'd almost be forced in.

It should also be taken into account that, yes, while they did pretty much do away with Xerath's original themes, it seems most people are of the opinion that his new character is better and more original than what we had before. If they plan on rewriting all of the lores to fit this style, assuming they can keep the already-original and interesting characters original and interesting and make the boring and 2D characters original and interesting as well, then would the IoW really be needed?

Also, Xerath's power-hungryness was not retconned within a month. The Shurima videos were not shown from his perspective. Thats why whenever everyone complained about "Eww Xerath is now Jafar-tier villain gg Rito PLS", Riot continuously stated that what they showed in those videos was not all there was to their lore and bios and all that, and that none of them were from Xerath's point of view, which we WOULD see (and we did). They just took their time is getting the actual stories to us.

Earl EulrichOct 20, 20147 votes

I think you miss the point there...the IoW certainly is not just there because some champs need it, but it´s needed because it did fullfill several purposes:

it connected the game and the lore (immersion and such)
it made some Champs reasonable (instead of just bruning down everything on their path, not much depth there)
It connected the Champions to the world
it added a lot of depth to the world
it really had been the main point that made Runeterra "special" compared to other fantasy-worlds ...