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Support mids should be meta now

TeCoolMage··1 votes·908 views

I could never play Soraka due to her kit being hardwired to require allies but some supports like Sona can go mid and seriously mess up the enemy team. She'll never be able to burst like Xerath or even TF and mages counter her really hard, but in exchange she hard counters assassins similarly to how they counter mages.

Why? Because her Q burst is point and click so there's no shadow dodging or whatever out of her way.. She has a speed buff and her ult to get her under tower quickly (against Zed or Talon, they have to dodge by sacrificing a lot of their all in damage or their entire ult if they use mobility to get out of the way, so use it immediately after an all in ult). Even when the enemy gets her to half HP, she has enough heals in her first rank W with a full AP setup to get her back to full health before the enemy assassin, who's waiting for regeneration and other cooldowns, can dive again.

Supports also have at least one good ratio that's usually their main ability (Soraka's W, Janna's W + E, Sona's entire kit, Lulu's entire kit) in teamfights. Unlike assassins who have to rely on being able to kill one person then retreating before coming back to clean up which makes them fall off as it's inferior to constant damage from mages and marksmen, supports can still have utility thus letting them scale better.

Their weaknesses are serious problems against mages. I barely scraped out of lane against TF and completely lost against Cassiopeia. It's so extreme that I find it comparable to having LeBlanc dash into my tower as Xerath while missing then getting killed anyway. A support will always seem to have at least one ability that seems suited to just countering assassins and very little else (shields, silences, CC) leaving them with 1-3 abilities while most mages have 3-4 that are useful in such a fight. They also get hit very often regardless of skillshot vs point and click so a lot of the advantages supports have start to disappear. Then they get outscaled but not as hard as mages vs assassins if a mage manages to win lane.

EDIT: Zed mains gonna hate due to their experience against Zyra. When Sona, Soraka, Nami and Janna finally go mid, it'll finally be balanced and there'll finally be an end to the whole "mobility mid because everyone has skillshots" meta.

20 Comments

IcyPepper2 votes

Eh.

A good support roams anyway. They just start out bot because of various reasons I think everyone knows by now.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Yeah but I mean that supports seem to be extremely anti melee, assassing and damage oriented. Supports and mages can freely change roles because the difference between supports and mages (well, also supports and tanks when considering those that aren't super hardcore supports) is so tiny to the point I'd argue that supports are just subsets of mages and tanks, those that have CC that easily hits and interrupts mobility from whatever tries to get to the backline.

For example: Zyra and Vel are both supports and mids while not having any buffs for their ADC. Why? Because they have CC that can hit an assassin very very easily, with low cooldowns. The fact that Zyra seems more support and Vel seems more mage is entirely decided by what people perceive the champions rather than any actual difference in what they do and how they do it.

Shen and Taric both have buffs to themselves and allies, without having enough harass to do too much to the enemy support + ADC. They also have CC. The fact Shen is more top lane while Taric is more support is mostly from the player perception too.

DeathBurst1 votes

{quoted} to the point I'd argue that supports are just subsets of mages and tanks,

Well, actually, Support is more a Position (the thing you chose in the new Champ Select) than a Role (what you actually do in a fight). I suspect that all the champions with a role Support tagged on the Champions Info website will be reclassified as something else as soon as they will be involved in a Roster Update. These Tags are all outdated, anyway: Juggernaut or Divers do not exist, Blitz is not a Sup, etc.

Riot mentioned once or twice that Jana/Nami/Sona/etc. are in a class of their own that is internally called as Enchanters. I'm really looking forward to that promised Dev Blog about the "dozen or so" classes that Riot uses currently.

swaggysaggy1 votes

Lulu is played more mid than support. Lulu is also a utility mage. Sona is very squishy meaning a good assassin can kill her if she messes up. She has 2 damage abilities 1 is her ult. Her other damage required auto attacking. Early game she can cheese but late game she falls off and can easily be killed.

TeCoolMage1 votes

The point of Sona is the fact she can only be killed in an all-in due to her W sustain stopping poke and harass if it's not as often as aggressive mages like Xerath (Zed spamming Q isn't much compared to TF doing the same) can hand out. Her Q also deals 140%~ AP with Lich Bane every few seconds so in lane she has enough damage to contribute a reasonable amount.

It's very hard to mess up if an assassin uses their ult to engage, then Sona ults afterwards, as her Q W E combo lets her do damage and get under tower with the safety of mid lane.

Lulu has a heal, shield and poke, the difference being the fact Sona gives this to both herself AND an ally, making her better in the long run for the team, but Lulu has it better for a single target and she has much better CC.

I don't get why everyone immediately assumes supports can't scale into late game, and use it as the main reason for them to never be played mid, but never hold the same standard to assassins like Pantheon who can't function in a teamfight but still get played mid. Sona's scalings are pretty amazing when considering how spammable it is. Even when playing someone like Soraka support I can take out 1/8th of a carry's HP with a single Q, every 3 seconds, late game with Ardent Censer and support items.

swaggysaggy1 votes

{quoted}

The point of Sona is the fact she can only be killed in an all-in due to her W sustain stopping poke and harass if it's not as often as aggressive mages like Xerath (Zed spamming Q isn't much compared to TF doing the same) can hand out. Her Q also deals 140%~ AP with Lich Bane every few seconds so in lane she has enough damage to contribute a reasonable amount.

It's very hard to mess up if an assassin uses their ult to engage, then Sona ults afterwards, as her Q W E combo lets her do damage and get under tower with the safety of mid lane.

Lulu has a heal, shield and poke, the difference being the fact Sona gives this to both herself AND an ally, making her better in the long run for the team, but Lulu has it better for a single target and she has much better CC.

I don't get why everyone immediately assumes supports can't scale into late game, and use it as the main reason for them to never be played mid, but never hold the same standard to assassins like Pantheon who can't function in a teamfight but still get played mid. Sona's scalings are pretty amazing when considering how spammable it is. Even when playing someone like Soraka support I can take out 1/8th of a carry's HP with a single Q, every 3 seconds, late game with Ardent Censer and support items.

The difference between pantheon mid and sona mid is pantheon can split push late game along with all the assassins. Pantheon is rarely played mid and assassins can assinate a squishy in a team fight. Sona can not do that. She has no mobility and not enough damage to make up for it. Also there is something I believe called old school zed and its where zed puts a shadow behind his assassination target and goes to it when they use cc so sonas ult which would allow him to kill her. The reason zyra and vel are played support is their damage. That is why vel ult has a huge base damage. Vels e is too easy to dodge for it to be reliable cc to stop an assassin. Zyra has a bit more cc but they pick her for her damage. Sona has low siege potential and low wavwclear. If picked mid I can pick anivia have a safe lane against sona and farm all game. There are mages that hard counter assassins more than sona. Like lissandra lissandra is also way better late game and is great in team fights. Also Diana would beat sona. Early sona can harrass but once they hit six Diana can all in sona. If sona ults Diana goes back in 30 seconds

BluePolarizer1 votes

Lissandra isn't that good against assassins due to low base damage and low sustain. I'd say Annie is way better. The real reason Sona doesn't go mid is her crap waveclear, not her dueling or poke. Her dueling and poke is pretty good. She just cant' farm well thus will be shoved under turret and forced to last hit while the enemy mid ganks elsewhere, or she can miss farm and be seen while trying to gank.

swaggysaggy1 votes

{quoted}

Lissandra isn't that good against assassins due to low base damage and low sustain. I'd say Annie is way better. The real reason Sona doesn't go mid is her crap waveclear, not her dueling or poke. Her dueling and poke is pretty good. She just cant' farm well thus will be shoved under turret and forced to last hit while the enemy mid ganks elsewhere, or she can miss farm and be seen while trying to gank.

Lissandra's ult counters most assassins because its a free zhoynas that heals or a stun the would allow her to e away

DeathBurst1 votes

Actually it's the opposite. You don't even try to kill people in lane (unless they disrespect you, but you shouldn't count on that), but then in Team Fights, you provide an insane amount of utility. Your speed boost scale with AP, so with a mid income and build, you have something almost as good as a Sivir ult on a 8 seconds CD. Your heal can sustain through VERY long siege, and your AoE shield is very strong. And the AoE stun on her ult is still as good as when she's sup.

There is one cave-at for Sona mid, it's the lack of damage/waveclear, so you need to have another source of magic damage/waveclear in your team. Sona mid doesn't work with any team comp. But it works. I'm not saying it's LCS-level, but it's definitely a viable pick at medium-high ELO.

(And a lot of champs don't work in any team comp, or versus any team comp. Try taking a Malphite verus a 3 AP comp, and you'll see what happens...)

swaggysaggy1 votes

{quoted}

Actually it's the opposite. You don't even try to kill people in lane (unless they disrespect you, but you shouldn't count on that), but then in Team Fights, you provide an insane amount of utility. Your speed boost scale with AP, so with a mid income and build, you have something almost as good as a Sivir ult on a 8 seconds CD. Your heal can sustain through VERY long siege, and your AoE shield is very strong. And the AoE stun on her ult is still as good as when she's sup.

There is one cave-at for Sona mid, it's the lack of damage/waveclear, so you need to have another source of magic damage/waveclear in your team. Sona mid doesn't work with any team comp. But it works. I'm not saying it's LCS-level, but it's definitely a viable pick at medium-high ELO.

(And a lot of champs don't work in any team comp, or versus any team comp. Try taking a Malphite verus a 3 AP comp, and you'll see what happens...)

She is outclassed by most other immobile mages they all have more damage or just do more in fights, such as Viktor Annie karthus anivia annie lux twisted fate Cassiopeia brand xerath ziggs and veiger.

DeathBurst1 votes

Damage dealers outclass Sona in damage, no kidding...

But if you have another source of magic damage in your team, the utility Sona provides is enormous, and vastly above all the examples you gave...

swaggysaggy1 votes

{quoted}

Damage dealers outclass Sona in damage, no kidding...

But if you have another source of magic damage in your team, the utility Sona provides is enormous, and vastly above all the examples you gave...

Veiger's stun easy way to catch people out one of the best siege tools. Anivia q stuns ult is aoe slow and she has the wall which is one of the best abilities to catch out immobile champions. Orianna ult one of the most gamechanging ults. Annie an instant aoe stun that does alot of damage. Utility is good, damage stuns thhe ability to catch out others sieging and roaming are usually better. Heals will not stop an anivia wall from blocking a person's path them anivia 2 shotting them. Heals won't save someone from a veiger ult or a the team being ulted by ori. Lulu is the pinnacle of utility mages and one of the few strong and very viable ones. Because she damage or shield. It allows options she's not locked to only shielding or doing damage.

swaggysaggy1 votes

Janna can not go mid. I would pick an assassin and the moment janna uses her q I'd go in and kill her. Early too so she can't ult.

DeathBurst1 votes

Lol... I'm skeptical. How do you blast her shield? How do you even reach her, with her insane MS?

swaggysaggy1 votes

{quoted}

Lol... I'm skeptical. How do you blast her shield? How do you even reach her, with her insane MS?

Dashes teleports also against janna I can pick kassadin and scale up without any lane threat.

DREADN0UGHT1 votes

{quoted}

** (against Zed or Talon, they have to dodge by sacrificing a lot of their all in damage or their entire ult if they use mobility to get out of the way, so use it immediately after an all in ult)**.

I nearly puked.

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

Support champions are designed from the ground up to NOT work in mid and are nerfed every time they do. The exception is Lulu, who despite being nerfed many times can't be properly knocked out of the lane until she gets reworked.

swaggysaggy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bH8gLdzr,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-01-29T18:04:54.735+0000)

Support champions are designed from the ground up to NOT work in mid and are nerfed every time they do. The exception is Lulu, who despite being nerfed many times can't be properly knocked out of the lane until she gets reworked.

That's because the way lulu was designed she can support or do damage. She can shield or do damage. She can polymorph or shield her ult is the biggest support aspect of her.

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

{quoted}

That's because the way lulu was designed she can support or do damage. She can shield or do damage. She can polymorph or shield her ult is the biggest support aspect of her.

No, she was simply poorly designed. She was designed without a doubt to be a support and a support only. But Riot screwed up. They gave her wave clear and despite nerfing her Q several times, there is no way to undo it without a rework which she will likely get sooner or later.

RookPusher1 votes

is Nami getting a wave-clear? I wasn't aware.

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