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Fact and fiction: Mana changes

TeCoolMage·4/24/2018, 5:01:42 AM·86 votes·15,403 views

Myth: Doran's ring start mages are outright nerfed. Dorans ring is bad in general now

Fact: Ignoring the very welcomed +5 damage to minions, no, doran's ring start was not nerfed.

  • 5 mana per 5 seconds is much better than 4 mana per minion kill. With perfect 10 CS/min this is 4 mana per 6 seconds. But that's not all, this single change has a huge impact past just the numbers
  • It is no longer a unique passive (by the way, the minion damage isn't either lol). With two doran's rings you get better trading through health, better minion pushing WITHOUT mana through minion dmg, and then on top of that mana regen that is fully efficient. There IS a tradeoff before anyone lists the disadvantages of stacking items that are purely laning phase oriented and don't build into anything then says my entire point is false
  • It is no longer tied to minion kills. This gives mages in supp and jg more choices in terms of power spikes and sustain. It is more than possible for a jg mage to go talisman -> doran's rnig -> lost chapter (but even before this change, screw runic echoes it's useless)
  • Continuing with this, mid mages are now better when playing safe since conceding CS is not nearly as bad as it is when it's no longer screwing over your mana regen
  • Assuming you get perfect CS it is 3.333 + 50% of your base mana. Mana regen at level 1 has approx increased by 33%. Your mana regen growth is seriously minuscule at early levels (keep in mind growth statistic is not the actual stat gains per level, but an average. Lvl 1->2 gives approx 50% of the growth statistic and lvl 17->18 gives approx 120%.) so it will be well past laning phase when your mana regen is nerfed. Anyways good luck maintaing that perfect 10 CS/min (jg camps don't count btw) with the ADC getting priority on all the income.

Myth: All mana for mages has been nerfed with no compensation.

Fact: There's a lot to unpack here, from itemization to base stats so I'll try to do it in several chunks, but this is seriously just intentionally ignoring any good change to monger fear. Read. Mana increase at level 1. In all seriousness though people are probably aware of it but have no clue of the extent of the changes (so assume it's barely anything) because no one has time to do math, which is understandable.

Looking through the list and looking for the highest mana growth nerf, there's is cass (tbh there might be a bigger mana pool nerf somewhere but I'd have to put it to wolfram or smth to compare the base buff with growth nerf. Too lazy) and for lowest, TF

Cass 334 -> 418 63 -> 31.5 84 mana buff at lvl 1 451 mana nerf at lvl 18

TF 266 -> 333 38 -> 19 57 mana buff at lvl 1 266 mana nerf at lvl 18

Oh by the way if you don't like archangel's like me and like Luden's and GLP, minus 100 from that 'nerf at lvl 18'. More on it later.

(As a rule of thumb these look like nerfs past lvl 11-13, keeping in mind growth statistics have a lower effect on earlier levels)

Then don't forget base mana changes

Now, onto items with mana:

  • Doran's ring is slightly nerfed not considering base mana changes, unless you're not playing perfectly like the challies in elo hell we all are in which case it's almost always a buff. More on that above
  • Tear is outright nerfed, as well as Archangel's. More on that later.
  • The other lost chapter items and lost chapter itself buffed in general but there is a bit of a nerf that's hard to notice.
  • 100 mana buff to Luden's and GLP to offset base stat changes. Total cost of Luden's down by 100. Damn Luden's is looking nice, but combine cost is up by 100, more on that next point.
  • Lost chapter increased by 200 gold but AP increased by 10, mana restore doubled (but this is only in PBE notes by surrender at 20, so it's likely temporary but very welcome).
    • The 10 AP for 200 gold is 1 AP for 20 gold which is slightly more efficient than the 1 AP for 21.7 gold by amp tome. However, price increases are not as simple as an efficiency check, they require longer lane staying before back (more mana at level 1 and less pressure to CS perfectly does help though) and all. I can't give the complexity of price increase the justice it deserves without making a new post but in general the higher combine cost and removal of amp tome from Luden's means more of your gold is 'in the bank' and not being used for stats. This actually makes GLP a very good competitor now in that it's a 'fast' and efficient item to rush at all parts since it's composed of low cost amp tomes AND only has a 450 combine cost! Probably one of the few items to beat the BS efficiency of the 450 IE combine cost, but glp was never popular in the first place so it's okay. Late game Archangel's, super strong item spike Luden's, efficient laning into strong mid game GLP, or extreme laning phase focus Doran's ring stacking? All the choices as opposed to dull "archangel's best" we've sat through since the AP item rework

And let's not forget AP buffs in general, 5 AP to rylai's, a whole bunch of AP to Spellbinder, etc etc

Myth: Riot has a problem with mages having mana past laning phase!! Leave us alone! They're nerfing all our late game mana!

Fact: This one is a very understandable one, I agreed until I went deep into the guts of these changes. I think Riot screwed up in this one with their terrible wording implying things they didn't intend.

What Riot has a problem with is mages having too much mana to run out late game.

"But TeCoolMage you boosted bonobo the end result is the same they're still gonna nerf all our late game ma-" holds finger to confused reader Shh

Think about this: Have you ever gotten low on mana late game building GLP/Luden's? Or with GLP or Luden's have you ever held onto 300 mana and not used it until the ADC dared to step up and defy the superiority of mid lane mages as opposed to continuing to use abilities on the tank? For me on Xerath and Anivia, yes, at least. Now let's say you had 1400 mana on Seraph's instead of 500. Yeah you'd take a very long time to run out with the extra 900 mana.

After looking through the numbers I'm pretty convinced: they're only nerfing very late game mana for Luden's and GLP, otherwise it's a hefty buff for most of the game (for both of these items in different ways). Tear/archangel's/Seraph's it's a nerf though, no denying that.

In other words, Readers be like: "'We want to nerf mages since they have too much mana late game... (in general)' Nooo I'll have no viable options I have to build AD Crit now!" But Riot be like: "'We want to nerf mages since they have too much mana late game (when they follow the meta build of Seraph's)' okay balance team let's move tear's power into base stats, Doran's, Luden's and GLP, then let's make Statikk Shiv cost 5 more gold next patch so ADCs will have a harder time"

Tear lost mana refund, Archangel's has missed out on the 100 mana buff given to GLP and Luden's, this patch the 3% mana to AP has gone to 1%, is Archangel's still good? Yeah it's still a 1400 mana item with 3% mana-AP if you fully stack it. Maybe it'll need compensation buffs. But now it's not a generalist mana item and instead has its niche. Remember old Morello's? 20% CDR, mana.. Yeah. Glad the choices are broader again from when we realized Luden's/GLP can't compare.

Luden's and GLP have received buffs in total cost, better build paths, and other ways.

Myth: This is an indirect buff to assassin's laning phase, muh LCS.

Fact: Well... Honestly I'd say the opposite. Or maybe it's not? Really it's playstyle, pick, and skill related!

From the mage's perspective: Doran's is no longer dependent on minion kills, allowing for better harass. A lot of less skilled players can have a better time since juggling between harassing and CS perfectly is a skill that I think is difficult. In a way it allows mechanics to supplement decision making so one can prop up the other (and make you a better player) so people can stop being like "Oh I'm only silver because my mechanics suck I have the game knowledge of a challenger" (complete BS reason btw), which is pretty damn cool. You can improve your mechanics thus increasing the efficiency of your harass, both damage the enemy AND get the CS, or if you're not confident and see both a minion dying because you didn't set it up and the enemy putting themselves in a vulnerable position, you can choose the better of the two instead of being forced to take the minion because the potential mana cost makes it always the best choice. Or in other words, your low elo mages can harass you in lane more because them missing CS doesn't screw over their mana regen. That's more likely. However, mages will have to accept being zoned more readily before and at the assassin's lvl 6 power spike in your average rushing-Luden's scenario, even though they're 'buffed'. You have to clear an extra wave to get enough gold for Lost Chapter, which means you need to keep your health up to stay that long and therefore take less bad trades. Before you could back early and then buy yourself a null magic or cloth armour with your lost chapter to mitigate burst, now you have to back either a wave before that (100-250~ gold earlier) and buy only Lost chapter, or back a wave after (200 gold later). High risk, high reward I guess. Also, 100 gold combine cost increase so for a wave you're behind in terms of gold-used-in-stats. For GLP I'll have to admit it might be the opposite in that the combine cost lets you have a lot more stats as the enemy is turning lvl 6. More mana means more shoving, more trading, etc So for mages, you can play more passive, as aggressive play is riskier, or play more aggressive, as aggressive play is more rewarded (get a kill in lane or force a back to push XP and gold advantage pre-6? Now you get both the more efficient lost chapter AND burst mitigation for their lvl 6 power spike.) However, there's more space to control the wave with early game mana and autos do more damage to minions now. Which allows 'outplays' by bouncing the wave, freezing, etc, more easily

Assassin's perspective (sorry if they're short, I don't play them much myself) Their late game is worse, I can abuse their mana problems more, even if it isn't like a huge difference. My Serrated Dirk is stronger than their lost chapter, my double longsword beats their tome and crystal, and they have to work harder to get it, although they still have the better tools to get it via range advantage and waveclear If they focus on harassing me instead of CSing I need to punish them by shoving/building a wave to bounce the wave back by level 6 if it's close, or I need to trade back with all my abilities since they need to back later, thus us being both low to the point we both need to back is a win for me if we get back before 6 plus enough time to make them low again (with my long sword vs crystal advantage) so I can dive as soon as lvl 6 hits It's near impossible for them to have boots, Lost Chapter AND a cloth/null as we hit lvl 6. So they'll be weak in sustain, roaming or trading, identify and abuse this weakness Are they doing things like double Doran's ring?

I'll need to reread the red post but if the goal is to stop mages from dominating mid, they're probably doing it by making assassins compete late game (this stretches far back to lethality being stronger late game), and mages compete early game. So it's not 90% of one in x meta and 90% of the other in y meta, and instead relatively similar in either

TLDR; Mana changes are directed at Seraph's being the new morello and 'practically manaless now' being the bar for 'viable mana item', NOT that mana in general is currently letting you spam or something, in fact most AP items have been buffed. Passively play is less punishing vs. assassins at first, but over passiveness can really mess up your ability to respond to lvl6 powerspike dive, aggressive play is more rewarding, but failing can really make it hard to get lost chapter on top of defensive components.

Pls discuss your thoughts below

95 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer4/24/2018, 5:09:10 AM37 votes

This is an amazing thread. Props to you for all the work this took!

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Romans VI XXIII4/24/2018, 5:03:12 PM13 votes

Nice math, to bad you ignored half the equation. you know that +50% Base Mana Regen....good one

Zed genius4/24/2018, 1:41:21 PM12 votes

No it's all wrong Riot has a personal grudge against me and is nerfing all mages every single patch because they don't want me to get out of bronze 4 I swear please believe me /s

NineTailedMystic4/24/2018, 7:11:16 AM11 votes

The only thing I hate about these changes is the reliance on blue/ocean mid to late game. The team who has an advantage will have access to both blue buffs/drags and the team that needs to waveclear won't have it when they need it.

Malix Farwin4/24/2018, 1:44:48 PM10 votes

"Myth: All mana for mages has been nerfed with no compensation."

Fact: No one ever said this, the compensation is literally in the same post as the nerf.

Fact: We all know this is not an early game/laning nerf but a mid game nerf Fact: Won't stop Mages from being dominant in the LCS because we are not the ones making Assassins un-viable in group play. Fact: While yes the passive is doubled on lost chapter it presents two problem. Its mostly done to offset the mana nerfs and it take longer to hit our spike, overall the change just means bot lane is spiking even faster than they do now compared to us. Final Fact: The OP actually didn't read what mage mains are complaining about, like at all.

Meep Man4/24/2018, 3:05:34 PM8 votes

People are less angry about the nerfs themselves from what I've seen, and more the justification for them.

Ifneth4/24/2018, 11:41:55 AM7 votes

Thanks for this great post. I’m glad you made it. I totally agree with it and wish someone posted it.

Oh, right! Doran’s Ring now stacks again! Yes! This means that Faker’s anti-Zed build works again! Here it is.

Start - Doran’s + 2 Pots First Recall - Doran’s Ring Second - Cloth Armor and Boots Third - Seeker’s Armguard

The new passives and their stacking grants you +10 mana per 5 seconds, which is huge. You get 60 mana per wave in addition to the 12 AP and 80 health. Since Doran’s Ring is only 400 gold, you can get it by spamming spells and basing early, which will be easier with the bigger base mana pools mages get now.

24 AP, 160 Health, and 10 Mana per 5 seconds. That’s definitely worth setting the build back 400 gold. It’s not like mages will be winning lane against Zed or Talon or Yasuo anyway. Instead, they can use this build to push hard, farm, and harass with an early stat advantage, base often to narrow the window for an all-in, and reach the scaling armor of Seeker’s.

Alternatively, they can opt for Ninja Tabis for a quicker armor spike, protection from basic attacks, and to avoid buying a full defensive item. This choice is most effective against Yasuo.

DW Diana4/24/2018, 9:50:51 AM6 votes

{quoted}

I'll start by saying well done on making a very strong and informed post regarding the changes. I personally don't mind a lot of the changes (my main Malz is already forced to take electrocute to have kill pressure so it's kinda like kicking a dead horse) but I don't agree with the lost chapter changes and still have concerns about doran's ring.

  • Lost chapter increased by 200 gold but AP increased by 10, mana restore doubled (but this is only in PBE notes by surrender at 20, so it's likely temporary but very welcome).
    • The 10 AP for 200 gold is 1 AP for 20 gold which is slightly more efficient than the 1 AP for 21.7 gold by amp tome. However, price increases are not as simple as an efficiency check, they require longer lane staying before back (more mana at level 1 and less pressure to CS perfectly does help though) and all. I can't give the complexity of price increase the justice it deserves without making a new post but in general the higher combine cost and removal of amp tome from Luden's means more of your gold is 'in the bank' and not being used for stats. This actually makes GLP a very good competitor now in that it's a 'fast' and efficient item to rush at all parts since it's composed of low cost amp tomes AND only has a 450 combine cost! Probably one of the few items to beat the BS efficiency of the 450 IE combine cost, but glp was never popular in the first place so it's okay. Late game Archangel's, super strong item spike Luden's, efficient laning into strong mid game GLP, or extreme laning phase focus Doran's ring stacking? All the choices as opposed to dull "archangel's best" we've sat through since the AP item rework

Lost chapter as always a go to rush for the MANA SUSTAIN it gave. At 900 gold it have you everything you needed to sustain as a mage unless you were really spamming your spells. More mana means more cs for mages meaning more gold. The changes to mana in this patch will likely mean your first back for a lost chapter is difficult without staying in lane past the point of running oom leaving you very vulnerable. Add to this the increase in cost and you're into the levels of impossible, even though I'll agree it does give cost effective stats. Even now most mages aim to get a tear then into roa over ludens/archangels first because they're cheap, give good stats, and give sustain. At which point buying a tear becomes much more cost/scaling effective then getting a lost chapter anyway.

Dorans ring USED to reward good cs'ing by returning mana, now it will work on the basis of buying an extra 1 or 2 of these on your first back (seeing as lost chapter is no longer a viable option at 1400 gold). Don't get me wrong the non-unique stats are a great idea, and I'm personally all for having an option for an early back that makes sense, I just don't think dorans ring will be so rewarding anymore unless you're on a champion that can trade AND cs at the same time, who really should have been riots focus anyway. Mages that have to choose between the two will lose out (E.G. from a malz main point of veiw do i now use Malefic Visions to harass and lose out on yet more mana sustain from it's 'ping', or do i use it to clear waves meaning I in turn get harassed/watch my voidlings die meaning i still don't get the cs/mana sustain?)

Assassin's perspective (sorry if they're short, I don't play them much myself) Their late game is worse, I can abuse their mana problems more, even if it isn't like a huge difference. My Serrated Dirk is stronger than their lost chapter, my double longsword beats their tome and crystal, and they have to work harder to get it, although they still have the better tools to get it via range advantage and waveclear.

The assassin item comparison isn't really right. What assassin doesn't start longsword anyway, giving them a 350 gold head-start to build and 1100 gold item compared to our (now) 1400 gold item? Again the changes to lost chapter, while cost effective, mean mages are very unlikely to be able to build this on their first back meaning dorans ring or the components for lost chapter are all they can really get, meaning they return to lane without any mana sustain again. This in turn will force them to either have tp or lose cs, meaning they're either even further behind on gold or taking a summoner that isn't in any way optimal. There is the option on unsealed spellbook but for mages like Malz who are currently using electrocute to gain back some kill pressure its a bitter pill to swallow.

Tear lost mana refund, Archangel's has missed out on the 100 mana buff given to GLP and Luden's, this patch the 3% mana to AP has gone to 1%, is Archangel's still good? Yeah it's still a 1400 mana item with 3% mana-AP if you fully stack it. Maybe it'll need compensation buffs. But now it's not a generalist mana item and instead has its niche. Remember old Morello's? 20% CDR, mana.. Yeah. Glad the choices are broader again from when we realized Luden's/GLP can't compare.

Serephs is still good, archmages is serviceable, tear hurts bad. With the above described loss of lost chapter as a rush, tear has become a much needed fallback on a lot of mages. Yes this has lead to a decrease in ludens users, but this isn't because serephs/tear is better. It's because we simply cannot afford lost chapter on our first back. The proposed changes to lost chapter will only make this worse. Yes I remember old morello's. 20% CDR, mana, grievous wounds, built from an affordable first back item that gave sustain which is why everyone built it...

In conclusion while I do respect a lot of your points, and the time and detail you've gone into with your post, I think the changes to lost chapter are backwards and Doran's ring will change little for those it was 'intended' to nerf. The old 900 gold lost chapter was not only cost effective, it had the sustain mages needed, and with these change will need again. Dorans ring rewarded good cs'ing whereas now it will reward those that can harass and cs as the same time like xereth, vel'koz and riots main fan-girl, taliyah.

Wild Geese4/24/2018, 6:39:10 AM6 votes

Then why didn't they just nerf Seraph's?

Yordle Xayah4/24/2018, 9:54:20 PM4 votes

These are my favorite kind of Boards posts. Interesting, informative and fomenting actual conversations.

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Dope Solo4/24/2018, 5:10:04 AM4 votes

I would also say that against an opposing enemy mage, the net effect of a early game buff is nil.

Flemman4/24/2018, 3:05:36 PM3 votes

I'm confuse, is the 50% mana regen on your first "fact" (3.333 +50%) the one from doran ring?

no to toxic4/24/2018, 7:51:50 PM1 votes

I didn´t read this thread but I´m gonna guess it goes on about how the mana changes are a indirect nerf to Kah`zixs evolved R ganks due to the lack of mana forcing enemy mages to invade Kazhix in his own jungl to take his blue