What people don't understand about Assassins with longer burst vs Fighters

TeCoolMage··67 votes·5,216 views

Fighters have tankiness in their kit and synergy with marksmen stats (on-hit, crit, AS) or staying power (Xin has to be in melee range for 3 autos to knock up)

Assassins that require more time to burst have none of these synergies and replace them with more damage on top of their kits. They don't have to stay for very long but benefit from doing so, and can bail with mobility in those cases while fighters tend to only have it to engage.

But more damage != shorter burst.

LeBlanc has to wait 1.5 seconds for her passive, Talon has to get off 3 spells for a bleed effect, Katarina has to wait for her knives to land. But in return, LeBlanc has 80% AP scaling, Katarina has 100% AD/AP scaling, Talon has 200% AD scaling.

But they don't need on hit to deal a lot of damage, and they don't have to be around. LeBlanc has range on her Q and E after getting her W hit+return, Talon gets to jump over a wall and let the bleed effect take place, and Katarina gets a reset on her Shunpo. They get to build full AD/AP, and fighters, even if fed, will always inherently require getting autos off, or be in melee range for extended periods of time so they lose damage from having to build a bit tanky.

Another difference is that Assassins just have so much damage in their kits that a behind fighter will fail against an average marksman or mage, while a behind assassin only fails against a mage or marksman if they build a bit of resistance, or are ahead enough to kill them in the slightly extended burst time. The problem with current assassins was that a fed marksman would always die unless they invested in frozen heart or something ridiculous, or were fed to an extreme, extreme amount (talking about 1 auto 1 shot sort of fed, not even a combo unless they have really powerful hard CC). PBE assassins had their damage potential increased so they always have the damage to kill if they got their combo off even when behind, but their damage from two instantly casted abilities got reduced so they always have to either rely on being already fed, or their delayed damage.

Assassin update won't make assassins worse fighters, they'll make assassins into assassins, and make them completely different from being fighters. A fighter will fall back to being a tank if they fail, and be tanky marksmen if they succeed, while an assassin will burst if they're ahead, and still burst if they're behind (currently they just split push like a tank or be useless).

TLDR; Assassins will fill a completely different niche from fighters and will need tankiness a lot less than fighters, as assassins have the scaling to deal damage even while behind while fighters are gated by the need to be tanky. The delay in a burst for assassins does not turn them into fighters as fighters have to be in range to be useful, assassins simply have to survive the delay with a kit full of evasive abilities.

EDIT: Just want to clarify, I'm kind of neutral with assassins building bruiser after update, I can't be sure.

What I mean in this post is this: Fighter playstyle is not at all like the assassin playstyle. Akali or ekko building tank is not Akali/ekko assassin anymore, and is outside of what I'm trying to convey. If Zed builds tanky, it means he was turned into a fighter, it doesn't mean that fighters are better assassins in terms of what the class contributes in general (people believe that the assassin's only strength is their 0.1 second burst time, though I believe it's their ability to burst even if behind, and the fact they can escape better)

113 Comments

JVP1514 votes

This is a very long and well thought out post, I like it.

Woook3r2 votes

Not saying it wasnt a good post. it was. but please get out of his butthole. its gross.

JVP1518 votes

Fair enough that you think this way, however I see a distinct lack of people complimenting other people on making a good post, so I thought it would be nice to do the opposite of complaining.

Landorin7 votes

The problem is that many fighters can be built as assassins and have few of the weaknesses you describe.

If I can play Jarvan IV, build pure damage and kill an ADC in .5 seconds, what's Zed got over him? If I can play Diana and have amazing durability on top of instant damage and initiation potential, where does that leave Fizz? Those champions perform better when ahead because they kill you instantly with more tankiness, and better from behind because they still have the option to build for durability because they aren't at the mercy of their ratios. Maybe they aren't fulfilling the assassin role while behind, but low econ champs are almost always better off being tanks than trying to be damage dealers.

And, I've only crunched the numbers on Fizz personally but he definitely did not gain the damage to kill someone while behind. I have trouble seeing how that could be true for some others as well (e.g. Akali). But maybe that's the case for the big 4.

Ralanr3 votes

Here's what fighters lack that assassins have: a meaningful escape. J4 might be the only one you listed with it, but that's only if he didn't use it to engage.

Keìron1 votes

but if you kill the enemy there is no need to escape :^)

Ralanr1 votes

I mean, if they were alone then sure.

TeCoolMage4 votes

I'm pretty sure Fizz is a special case in that he has an auto attack based ability too, and needs a few hits

SociopathFriend2 votes

Not sure Diana ever gets "amazing" durability. Her shield isn't that good.

Landorin2 votes

Yea, "amazing" is overstating it, my apologies. But relatively speaking, her shield and base stats give her significantly more concrete durability than any of the dedicated assassins.

SociopathFriend1 votes

I might argue Ekko, Fizz, and Kat out for that.

Ekko because Ekko. Fizz because he's got several seconds of not being targetable. Not taking damage is better than tanking it. Kat... does she still get damage resistance when she shunpos? I'm not sure how to stat that but with resets- that probably adds up quickly.

Michael Sykes2 votes

Kata does not get resistances with the shunpos. In exchange for that, she can jump around more often. This rework perfectly fits the definiton that Riot wanted:

"Assassins specialize in infiltrating enemy lines with their unrivaled mobility to quickly dispatch high-priority targets. Due to their mostly melee nature, Assassins must put them themselves into dangerous positions in order to execute their targets. Luckily, they often have defensive tricks up their sleeves that, if used cleverly, allow them to effectively avoid incoming damage."

Source: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

SociopathFriend1 votes

I was going off of current, not the rework. Fair nuff.

Michael Sykes1 votes

I really thought you were talking about the update D:

SlntReaper6 votes

How do we know bruiser and tank builds won't become popular after this rework? I commend Riot for attempting to increase counterplay but I'm afraid they haven't changed anything. Talon, the most hyped assassin, has to get three autoattacks off. Because of this, he will need tankiness to stay in the fight. This will force him to build bruiser, like Tankko. I'm afraid it will come to this, instead of what Riot wanted.

Just my two cents as an unranked player.

Ralanr20 votes

{quoted}

How do we know bruiser and tank builds won't become popular after this rework? I commend Riot for attempting to increase counterplay but I'm afraid they haven't changed anything. Talon, the most hyped assassin, has to get three autoattacks off. Because of this, he will need tankiness to stay in the fight. This will force him to build bruiser, like Tankko. I'm afraid it will come to this, instead of what Riot wanted.

Just my two cents as an unranked player.

This is false. His Rake ability can proc two of his three hit passive, so if he can play it correctly his Q will activate the bleed for heavy damage.

500000000000000026 votes

And his autoattack doesn't even count towards the 3 hit passive

Zerenza8 votes

His autoattack will proc the passive after the third hit(causing the bleed effect) so the combo is W+Q+AA and that's it, maybe an ult if you have it or the previous combo isn't enough.

He doesn't have to use 3 auto's to kill someone like wtf that would be dumb xD

ProfDrDeath4 votes

And the AA is virtually free after closing the gap with Q, due to Q not being an auto-attack itself.

Zerenza2 votes

The issue is that the Q is not an AA timer reset so landing that auto attack can literally mean the difference between a kill or not you can actually flash the auto attack reliably if you know how talon works and he won't kill you unless he ults.

I would say the most tankiness that talon will get is a steraks so he doesn't get bursted and thats kind of a good item on almost any AD assassin.

kile1471 votes

The goal is to make it so that assassins will have enough damage to kill marksmen through the single defensive item they sometimes buy. In return to counterbuilding being less effective they are having their damage delayed, creating more counterplay opportunities.

Steraks won't help because he will kill them through steraks. Instead the way to survive is to avoid procs of his rake, and if that fails you need to be able to escape him auto attacking you (burn flash, have a support peel, etc).

Zerenza2 votes

No i mean AD assassins are the ones taking steraks not marksman or other people, sometimes bruiser's and juggernauts take it but AD assassins make better use of it. It lets them get to their target, survive initial burst damage and get out without much issue.

Marksmen don't need a defensive item for Assassins, it's the assassins job to kill them and if there were an item that made that completely impossible then that would be counter intuitive. It's already difficult for assassins to do their job so giving marksmen another item that stops one of their weaknesses would just make them oppressive. Luckily assassins don't really have that many items to stop their counter's, Steraks, New Youmu's and New Duskblade are going to be the main ones, AP's have Zhonya's and that's about it.

PS: If marksmen could use steraks just as effectively as bruiser's and assassins it would cause another Youmu's, BC and Duskblade issue.

Ralanr5 votes

Marksmen did take and abuse steraks. It lead to a nerf to the item.

Zerenza1 votes

Good the item wasn't built for them in the first place, they don't need it.

Ralanr2 votes

So the item gets punished instead of being made to work for its intended users?!

Zerenza1 votes

Well it does work for the intended user's its just that it gave something else good to marksmen as well.

Youmu's for example is for AD assassins and Bruiser's, the reason it get's used by ADC is because it gives Attack Speed, Movement Speed, Armor Pen and AD All things that an ADC can benefit from. That's why it got changed in the assassin update, that's also why armor pen was removed. So yes sometimes an item needs to be punished or nerfed so that other's can't use it, that's usually by removing a stat from it like with removing Armor pen and Attack speed on Youmu's.

Ralanr3 votes

The thing is that a lot of people would have preferred making the steraks shield function like warmogs heart and only work when the champion has 3000 or more health. Instead Riot just nerfed it and made it and Maw unstackable.

Marksmen break our toys.

SlntReaper1 votes

His w is like ekko q his q is like ekko e

Ralanr1 votes

So?

SlntReaper1 votes

It shows correlation to ekko. This may be foreshadowing. Ofc I could be totally wrong.

Ralanr1 votes

Ekko could go with tank because of the slows and stuns he had in addition to how his ult worked.

SlntReaper1 votes

Talon can go tank because he has mobility. Fizz went tank, he has no CC.

Again, just my 2 cents as an unranked player.

The Blue Rajah3 votes

Fizz had sustained auto damage from his dot.

Talon has neither cc, nor sustained damage. He would be a poor tank or bruiser.

MistaMac1 votes

Ekko tank functions not really because of mobility but because of his "fallback pattern" that riot implemented in him - mainly: % missing health damage and stun/slows. High mobility just amplifies this

Fizz could go tank because of his % max health damage on his W. With Rylai as slow + ult as hard CC it was enough for him to function well

Talon has no proper hard CC and/or % health dmg so I would not worry to see him as tank - it's like proposing going kata or LB as one, it just doesn't work. Not to mention - that insane 200% bonus ad ratio on passive would go to waste with tank build

SlntReaper1 votes

Or he would be able to abuse the insanely high ad ratios. Think about someone who has really high ratios, like Nunu. Most people build maybe 1 ap item before going full tank, if at all. So the same logic applies here. Again, just my 2 cents as an unranked nub.

MistaMac1 votes

Think about it that way - unless they won't nerf his mobility/survi (which in his kit is pretty high atm) i think he would be equally useful as evelynn tank (and she's not THAT an issue like other picks).

Other issues with other pick are they need to auto ALOT to dish out damage which in talon's case is inexistant. 1st he need to apply spell damage and it's required only one auto to trigger the bleed damage. Hit and run tactics which won't be required to be much tanky and maybe externds burst for sth like 0.5sec.

Also if talon would reach over 300 bonus AD (which won't be difficult with new assassin items) at lvl 18 his bleed would strike for almost 800 damage.

Almost forgot - there is no way to abuse base dmg in talon's kit because is damn poor - passive 160 dmg at lvl 18 is very weak and unrewarding. Remember that to be function tank ekko and fizz they also abused their only one damage item: item 3025 which in case of Talon would work poorly. Also Talon and Fizz/Ekko does not share the same itemization, let alone numbers issues.

I'm pretty sure there is barely any way to go Tank Talon

Edit: In case u don't understand the passive - There is no other way to apply the passive stacks than spell damage (Q,W,R) and there is no other way to trigger the stacked passive than autoattack

SlntReaper1 votes

Ok. I realize Talon tank will not be a good build. But it will be a build that is off meta but still useful, especially when you consider his team wide ult. His tank combo will be built around sticking to the carry with his w>q>r teambomb. Again, I'm not saying it will be the most popular build but it will be a build to consider. Especially as a counter to ranged tops.

The Loveless2 votes

TBH I'm bursting everybody with Talon on PBE. The bleed doesn't even occur.

tooomine2 votes

[deleted]

Silverjust2 votes

I like the resist-scaling idea. Maybe items like item 3001 ,item 3157, item 3139 should give flat armor/mr and the Tankitems %armor or %mr based on a new value for each champ.

Need Gold 4 Tent2 votes

giving extremely high ratios means that not much ad/ap will be needed to give sufficient damage, thus giving rise to the tankassins since they may just need to build 1 or 2 damage items and fill the remaining slots with defense.

Yet, the opposite is true as well, if the ratios are so shit that it becomes pointless to build ad/ap, they would just build tank and rely on base values, unless those suck as well in which the champ itself is trash.

Keìron2 votes

autoattacks don't stack his passive

Keìron2 votes

"Talon's SPELLS Wound champions and epic monsters for 6 seconds, stacking up to 3 times."

SlntReaper1 votes

When Talon basic attacks a target with 3 stacks of Wound,

MistaMac1 votes

1st Talon needs to stack with spells "wound" debuff to be able to trigger bleed debuff with auto

Woook3r3 votes

I think the post is true in some aspects, but I for sure see rengar building bruiser. He has cc removal and a % heal in his kit.

I Q2 votes

If you didn't know, assassin Rengar is over powered on the PBE.

If you build IE then straight AD you can do a 2.7k crit with no infernals, runes, barons, or elders.

Ferus and Ferrum5 votes

Rengar may build one tank item, but his assassin build is infinitely better. The "% heal" does not heal him for a percent of his hp. It heals him for a percent of damage taken over the last 1.5 seconds. On a tank the heal is nearly useless because you wont be getting burst down that hard, and the heal has a super low base value. His new q base damage is low but the AD scaling is insane. (the empowered q ratio is 2.4) and he builds ferocity stacks near instantly if he combos properly.

Here's how it goes

  1. Jump on target
  2. use q+e to slow
  3. use w to heal any burst damage you sustained
  4. use w again for the cc immunity and more burst damage healing/ use q for more damage/ use e for a root

Check some pbe footage, no one is building him bruiser really, only people experimenting, but his assassin builds and damage are worlds better.

Voluug134 votes

On a tank the heal is nearly useless because you wont be getting burst down that hard,

The damage creep will make sure you get bursted anyways,

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