I like to play Janna full utility because damage "Supports" or Secondary Mid-laners as i like to call them can go rot in a dumpster.
But almost every time i use Glacial Augment it doesn't feel that impactful.
"Ranged: Ranged basic attacks slow by up to 30% - 40%."
Maybe have it's duration buffed? I barely notice a change in my opponents' movement speed at all.
Idk, just my thoughts.
Khristophoros2 votesJanna already has a slow and a knock up so you'd have to carefully chain it if you don't want to waste it. Slows don't stack, only the strongest slow takes effect. Janna's slow has the same duration as Glacial Augment, so if you walk up and W + auto you just wasted one of the slows. If you auto, then wait like 1.75s and then throw W you will chain the slows. That is awkward though.
I think it's for champs who don't already have slows because it's really awkward to hold your autoattack, or hold your ability, for like 2 seconds.
rtbf2256182411 votesThat is true but it is not like you spam W in-lane when you don't have AP because you can't afford the mana waste and the engage risk it involves.
I use it relatively consistently throughout mid- and late game regardless of my W existing. If i'm not wrong, her W duration was nerfed so even if i use W first, my basic attack will take enough time for me to use the Augment for an extended slow. It just doesn't feel particularily impactful when shit like electrocute can take a quarter of your health out or you can swap out summoner spells with something that is considered sub-par right now.
Or maybe i'm just delusional.
Khristophoros1 votesHer slow lasts 2 seconds so you really do have to hold your autoattack for an uncomfortable amount of time to meaningfully chain the slows.
But I think getting 4 seconds of chained slow on a target in lane is only really useful if you are going all in with your ADC. Of course, the slow does not prevent them from fighting back, so it might not really help unless you're ahead. Could be pretty good if you're laning with a Draven and he's just bought his BF sword.
Janna does get some more damage on her passive by using Approach Velocity, but she's already gonna do that either way by using her Q and W, so having Glacial Augment makes no difference for her in short trades. It only makes a difference if you're doing an extended trade or all in even when you consider Approach Velocity.
I think generally the best users of Glacial Augment are champs that actually deal pretty good sustained DPS baseline, like Teemo or Gnar because then you get the most out of the combined chasing power of Glacial Augment and Approach Velocity.
So I think it's very situational on Janna because she doesn't get any use out of it in short trades, and the use case for an all-in is when you and your ADC are ahead.
PS - BTW I totally know what you mean about Electrocute feeling really impactful and Glacial Augment not feeling that way. But I think that's because Electrocute is a high impact on a long CD and Glacial Augment is low cooldown and really needs to be combined with Approach Velocity on a champ who wants the extra speed to apply DPS.
rtbf2256182411 votesIt already is combined with Approach Velocity on the Rune page. That kinda reinforces my point.
Maybe they should decrease the slow amount and make it stackable. Like if you hit someone 4 times, it doubles for 2 seconds from a 25% slow.
And honestly, to stop abuse, i would lock that passive onto Support items.
Alternatively, they could also just make it a flat 40% - 60% slow for 1.0 seconds or so on an unique target. So it would really be only viable against 2 opponents as you swap targets, expressing your skill in overall positioning and animation cancelling. It would work the same way MF's passive does or how Bandit worked and in that form, it wouldn't be abusable by any solo laners. Adcs would lose a lot of damage this way but would be opting for a completely different playstyle with different strengths which is what i thought the Runes were "reforged" for.
Khristophoros1 votesMy point was, as Janna there are not many scenarios where having an additional slow to chain actually helps you even when you consider Approach Velocity because in most situations she already procs it sufficiently for her purposes.
rtbf2256182411 votesBut..it certainly doesn't look like it. The movement speed slow doesn't appear to have as strong an effect as stated and it's not very useful when you could just spam damage like any other retarded Support-wannabe.
I thought that was the point of my argument. You're basically saying "She has enough slows.." when the Rune exists to add on top of that. This goes for any ranged Support. Sona, Zyra, idk Soraka, Lulu etc.
Khristophoros1 votesWell yes my argument does really boil down to that. She already has a slow and a knock up. It doesn't help in many situations to chain another slow because slows do not prevent enemies from fighting back. It helps way more for Janna to bring a damage rune.
Why do you think the rune is meant to be added on top of existing slows? That is not useful on these support champs who lack sustained DPS. It's also not useful early when your carry is still not farmed yet.
I don't know if it's weaker than stated but either way it's just not useful on a support. You're overloading your utility at the cost of precious damage. One of your jobs as a support early game is to pressure the enemies to make it harder for them to farm and set up kills for your carry. Usually you need to bring some damage to do those things most effectively.
rtbf2256182411 votesIt doesn't help in many situations to chain another slow because slows do not prevent enemies from fighting back.
That is not true as i mainly use it to displace and hunt down enemies not become Kayn in disguise. It's a completely different use than "Death is the best form of cc" when Janna has practically no damage in her kit and shouldn't have any at all if it were up to me.
Why do you think the rune is meant to be added on top of existing slows? That is not useful on these support champs who lack sustained DPS. It's also not useful early when your carry is still not farmed yet.
First, you're heavily insinuating that Supports should have DpS. No they fucking shouldn't Supports, SUPPORT their teammates not steal the spotlight by usurping their roles. They are not secondary mages / assassins or Adcs. They are Support characters who specialize in helping their team mainly through specialized utility and crowd control. I don't want to see Brand or Vel'Koz in bot lane because they defile the role by definition.
And second, i meant that Runes themselves should be meant to be used. I'm not talking about Janna specifically, obviously. I'm saying that Glacial Augment feels borderline useless on 95% of the champions because they are A: Ranged B: more powerful with damage creep C: Can't apply it consistently.
Damage can fuck off from the Support role. It has no place there and has effectively ruined the role in recent Seasons. The solutions i came up with seem far more interesting and have more skill expression than "Hit this guy once, he gets ignited 1.5 sec later hehe xd omegalul kek cuz that's what the meta is eks DDDDD!"
Fucking disgusting.
Khristophoros1 votesSupports have always had respectable damage (in some cases higher than the carry) during the laning phase. The support's job is to control the lane, and having decent damage is important for that. Having no damage means you need a carry who has high damage early game. So if the support champ has very low damage it limits which carries are viable as a lane partner. Riot doesn't want to make some supports only work with specific carries so they've given all supports at least a decent amount of base damage on abilities.
You have a fantasy about how the game should work, which is not actually how it works. Sorry, it's just how it is. I'm not saying it SHOULD be this way or w/e I'm saying it IS this way.
rtbf2256182411 votesSupports didn't use to outdamage any single other major damage dealer like the Adc or Mid laner outside of exceptional cases. Brand for example wasn't even picked Support that often before the mage update that overloaded his passive with damage.
You are also putting so much emphasis on the importance of damage being used to bully people that it's propably why the balance team has made early game one-shotting so easy to pull off. Almost anyone can burst with an AP kit early on with 2 people. The first 5 minutes shouldn't be this ridiculous. There should be poke and outplaying but there shouldn't be fear of death right away cuz Zyra rooted you. You shouldn't die because someone uses their kit on you. You should die because you consistently screwed up.
Your argument reeks of how bad the damage creep has become simply because you think every Support has high damage and you think it's justified. This wasn't the case. Low damage trades early was how the game used to work and how it should. People used to have consistency. They had to work for their kills and advantages not just make someone magically explode thanks to fucking runes and non-support items that you could buy as a Support (Full ap Sona for example).
I feel like the idiots who came up with these runes just wanted to get it over with. "Ok we need X amount of runes in Y days. Let's just throw damage everywhere and minor utility effects for...uh..variability!" Seriously, who even uses the inspiration tree as primary anymore? People just use it for Stopwatch as secondary. It's all about the other 4 trees becase resolve has bone platin, sorcery has defensive options and more damage ofc, Domination has burst and precision has sustained dmg.
So my point stands. Utility is beyond underpowered in comparison with damage. Glacial Augment is a prime example of how lazily a rune is designed just so it could fill a slot. It doesn't feel good to use and you can't use it consistently on anyone because of how it's useless vs movement abilities outside of movement speed abilities and how valuable damage is next to it. Disgraceful. The core fundamentals of League have been abandoned for atrocious power-creeping which, ironically, doesn't even feel satisfying.
Khristophoros1 votesSupports have always been stronger at early levels than carries. The whole point of the carry is you start out weak and get stronger later with items.
Glacial Augment is actually good on some champs, but not on supports. Like I said you need to have sustained DPS to make effective use of the combination of Glacial Augment + Approach Velocity. Most of these supports have a few abilities with good base damage and low DPS while those abilities are on CD.
You have no use for an extended duration slow when your damage is all in these ability cooldowns and you do short trades in lane. You may have a use for it if you and your carry are ahead, meaning that the enemy would not be able to win if they fight back. In that situation the extra slow is good, but that is quite niche.
My whole point is this: Glacial Augment is bad on Janna and most supports, regardless of which champs you think it's supposed to be good on, it's not good on them. It is good on champs like Teemo and Gnar who benefit from getting the early proc on Approach Velocity.
Approach Velocity is honestly like half of the reason to use Glacial Augment, but Approach Velocity is not given to allies so the supportive utility of Glacial Augment is thus pretty weak.
Look the point is, it's not a support rune regardless of whether you think it's supposed to be.
rtbf2256182411 votesYeah, an Utility keystone is bad on Support champs. That's the true irony here. And idk why you bring up abilities to apply it. You don't apply glacial augment with abilities and it has nothing to do with damage. It's a basic attack slow. That is like saying old Bandit was bad on most Supports because you couldn't fight enough with Soraka or Janna or Sona in close range. Except any truly skilled player could, myself included. I enjoyed that interaction until it was removed for Klepto abuse.
I don't really understand why do you keep talking about Support damage. I don't even build AP on Janna with the exception of Revelie because i used to make Talisman and that's basically the new Talisman.
My job is to keep my team alive and essentially spoonfeed enemies to them through my crowd control. I've never had a problem just because i lack damage to take out half their health bar which is not what i should be doing. If i built AP, i'd sacrifice 3 more powerful items with actives for gimmicky retardation so i can cheese my way into killing some random squishy with my W Q and E.
Not to mention AP builds on squishy Supports do not work if your team falls behind. Utility doesn't scale down throughout the game and it's equally useful throughout it.
My whole point is this: Glacial Augment is bad on Janna and most supports, regardless of which champs you think it's supposed to be good on, it's not good on them. It is good on champs like Teemo and Gnar who benefit from getting the early proc on Approach Velocity.
Yeah, no shit Sherlock. The thing is, it should be fixed to have a bigger benefit from choosing it because it is borderline useless for being in a tree that Supports should in theory benefit the most from - The Utility Tree.
, but Approach Velocity is not given to allies so the supportive utility of Glacial Augment is thus pretty weak.
What? You think because it isn't shared it's..not UTILITY? Utility means that you don't use damage but other means of manipulation to attack the enemy or help your allies. If i slow someone, that is utility! That is directly helping my ally/allies to get a kill for example.
Khristophoros1 votesIt's getting really tiring that you keep posting these huge posts about your idea of game philosophy. I'm just trying to explain why Glacial Augment isn't useful for supports, specifically the ones like Janna who do short trades with abilities. And I am trying to explain why that doesn't automatically make it a terrible rune. Just like how Grasp isn't automatically terrible because it's not good on assassins. And yes I know it's definitely not intended for them, but that is beside the point.
I don't care which champs Riot intended for which runes. They can figure out simply by looking at usage statistics whether they hit the mark on that.
So anyway I just want to respond to one thing out of that whole post.
What? You think because it isn't shared it's..not UTILITY? Utility means that you don't use damage but other means of manipulation to attack the enemy or help your allies. If i slow someone, that is utility! That is directly helping my ally/allies to get a kill for example.
I specifically said it doesn't have good supportive utility because half of the utility actually comes from the on-demand proc of Approach Velocity, which is not given to allies. Again I said supportive utility. It gives you a lot more personal utility, therefore it is good on champs who can do direct sustained DPS.
So that's it. That is literally all I'm saying. It's a good rune on the champs who can utilize it.
rtbf2256182411 votesAs if i haven't recognized it's pretty underwhelming for something that seems to be a full-utility Keystone. That is why i am complaining.
Also, approach velocity gives you movement speed towards enemies and allies who are movement impaired. I have it on my page but you're putting a bit too much emphasis on it's requirement. It's not 100% required, just a nice thing to have to keep yourself in range. Someone like Singed would not need it for example but wouldn't mind it either given he has a passive that does the same thing at close range to greater effect.
I'm merely explaining why it should work but it doesn't. I still use it but only because i despise damage on Janna.
Khristophoros1 votesI really don't think Glacial Augment can ever be good on Janna because it doesn't fit into her trading pattern at all because she's only good at short trades, so even if you do the awkward things needed to chain the slows to 4s it's not good.
And yes it does feel underwhelming because opponents can still do a lot while slowed. That's why it doesn't benefit a champ who does short trades and already has a slow.
I get that you want to focus on utility but I don't think this rune has any synergy for her. How about Summon Aery or Guardian?
rtbf2216514121 votesI really don't think Glacial Augment can ever be good on Janna because it doesn't fit into her trading pattern at all because she's only good at short trades
You realize her passive has auto attack damage based on movement speed, right? It fits. It's just her item build that makes it iffy. Realize I didn't keep up with your guys conversation. I'm not on anyone's side here.
If she takes glacial and 
then focuses on 
and some other aggressive items, I'd be hesitant not to see why it wouldn't be a good rune. The only slowing item active I can see as decent on her would be 
though.
Khristophoros1 votesYeah I actually looked into how much benefit she will get from her passive. She gets 7 more damage from having Approach Velocity active. That could be argued to be good early game, but it's still awkward for her to chain it with her W slow because she has to either hold W or hold her autoattacks for 2 seconds. Neither one is a good option when you're trading.
If you just do a short trade with her abilities and a few autoattacks, you still get Approach Velocity because of her slow and knockup.
Aljonau1 votesIt has one advantage though, if you slow them by using an auto you will keep the movementspeed of your w. However you will really miss the extra power(speak: damage) of the sorcery keystones.
OnlyVelKozOnly2 votesBecause slows don't stop dashes/blinks/mobility creep.
Mordepool1 votesAnd most of the time the duration of the slow is used up as they dash away
OurLestrade1 votesIsn't it a diminishing slow? I honestly only take it on Taric because all the other keystones are even worse. Not a fan of them in general to be honest.
BeatzBoyFTW1 votesThere's a reason Frozen Mallet got nerfed, and let's not make it worse for Ranged champions.
GreenEmionLion1 votesI recently posted about this problem too, though i mention a possible solution that riot can rework the rune to have a three stack bonus slow which can even open up this keystone to adc's and junglers too. Similar with Press the Attack. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/b31oxPxE-new-inspiration-keystone-and-runes-riot
Oleandervine2 votesI recently posted about this problem too, though i mention a possible solution that riot can rework the rune to have a three stack bonus slow which can even open up this keystone to adc's and junglers too. Similar with Press the Attack. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/b31oxPxE-new-inspiration-keystone-and-runes-riot
No, there's a knife's edge when it comes to on-hit slows, because they can be utterly oppressive if they're overtuned. I think the rune needs minor number tweaks, but nothing that would increase the slow to oppressive levels.
GreenEmionLion1 votesI agree, The slow from basic attacks should be decreased but on the third hit will slow 50% with decent extend duration with a decay, overall still lower movement speed reduction than the current keystone. But more useful than relaying on an active item.
Oleandervine1 votesI agree, The slow from basic attacks should be decreased but on the third hit will slow 50% with decent extend duration with a decay, overall still lower movement speed reduction than the current keystone. But more useful than relaying on an active item.
In that scenario, you're guaranteed to slow someone for 3 of your attacks, which already gives you strong kiting and chasing potential, even if the first 2 attacks are a weaker slow.
GreenEmionLion1 votesOr a 30 to 40% slow on third hit. With how rough adcs have been it would be an interesting keystone to see in use. But it's not invulnerable to many of the other damaging runes out there as well.
hOrnn1 votesim currently trying it out on bard with a rush, in lane it has made me weaker for taking it due to losing all the burst i get out of the red tree, but it has more utility, and that is my role as support i guess.
i need to try it out a few more games but bard already has plenty of slows so i might just keep rushing but getting my burst back and not taking the rune.
rtbf2216514121 votesim currently trying it out on bard with a
i need to try it out a few more games but bard already has plenty of slows so i might just keep rushing
rtbf2216514121 votesprefer
It doesn't do anything to help him in lane.
M00ndanc31 votestake the red tree second for ingenious hunter so you can use your active items more while still getting the free ad/ap
rtbf2216514121 votesMaybe cause nobody is building 
Do you realize how powerful the slow is with an item?
DW Diana1 votesMaybe cause nobody is building
Do you realize how powerful the slow is with an item?
You do realise all of those give slows anyway? I mean yes GA gives an ENHANCEMENT to them, but really you've already paid for a slow; giving up your keystone as well just isn't worth it.
rtbf2216514121 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bEMdW1KX,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-08-09T19:43:54.868+0000)
You do realise all of those give slows anyway? I mean yes GA gives an ENHANCEMENT to them, but really you've already paid for a slow; giving up your keystone as well just isn't worth it.
Uh what?
You clearly haven't used the keystone.
Use it then come back to me before you tell me it's only a single target enhanced slow.
La Bello1 votesbecause if it was strong it would be OP
Trust me when I say you dont want every carry in the game starting off with a free Frozen Mallet.
Especially 
tbh Glacial aug is a impossible to balance rune should be reworked. the sheer design of it is ignorant of the fact that Ranged vs Melee is already hard enough to balance as is without turn rates.
Need Gold 4 Tent1 votesGlacial augment is for champs who already have enough dps for sticking to their target to apply the said dps. It does reduce duelling power against other duelists who opt for damage runes but you aren't looking to duel with this, you're looking to pick. Like Master Yi vs an ADC - don't need a combat rune because you win from base stats alone (of course items within reason). But even he can still get kited against mobility loaded ADC like Lucian and Ez. Not with GA + Approach Velocity. You wouldn't want to duel a Conqueror Trynd/Jax with it though, and it falls off lategame.
It's not really a rune for supports especially when the only ones who can reliably use it are ranged (nerfed slow). Melee supports (except maybe Tahm) don't really need it because once a Leona/Ali is in your face to be able to AA, you're already hard cc'd forever, no need for a puny slow.
SugeMinPikk1 votesI think the only time I've ever seen it used consistently was on Tahm shortly after the spellbook nerf. But even he takes other shit now, right?
M00ndanc31 votesI like to bring it on karma but i "augment" my build to work around it by rushing a after my 
. As the game goes on I usually pick up 
and if need be i can go into a more tanky side with
or 
. and most of the game i focus on catching out people or disingaging the enemy team. For runes I tend to go Glacial - stopwatch - buscuit delivery - approach velocity( in cases of teams that are more mobile than average)/ 5% cdr on all w/ domination second for zombie ward and ingenious hunter.
With these runes and items it makes a strong amount of vision control while also allowing me to catch or disingage at will (since glp goes down to like a 15s cd when ingenious is stacked).
All in all though Glacial is weak at the moment because if its pushed just a little to far we would wind up see somekind of swifty boots meta as every dualist or tank would wind up taking it. + some people just should not have a powerful slow built into there kit.
z63XnLCMwX1 votesRanged champ already have the advantage on being ranged. They do not need kiting to be easier. If anything, the slow for melee champ needs to be buffed.
Its All Skillzz1 votesCause it doesnt do damage.
MorganFreemanBot1 votesGlacial is extraordinarily niche, but also extraordinarily powerful.
It's a super odd mastery because it's the EXACT return of an EXTREMELY toxic gameplay element. As a result it can't be too strong, or else it'll take over the game and just run roughshod over everyone.
So far, of the champs I play, I've found Glacial to be ungodly strong on Sion and (surprisingly) Olaf. It's quite good on a few others, but it's INTENTIONALLY luke warm / weak on most champs.
DW Diana1 votesI like to play Janna full utility because damage "Supports" or Secondary Mid-laners as i like to call them can go rot in a dumpster.
But almost every time i use Glacial Augment it doesn't feel that impactful.
"Ranged: Ranged basic attacks slow by up to 30% - 40%."
Maybe have it's duration buffed? I barely notice a change in my opponents' movement speed at all.
Idk, just my thoughts.
It feels weak because it's stuck on AA and activate items. AA champions have loads of better keystones, and activates mainly come with slows anyway.
They should have just put it on abilities, but then people would complain it was OP and ofc AP champions would get some use out of it which must never be allowed. So it is relegated to the void like the champion who could see them most benefit from it xD
rtbf2256182411 votesIt could easily be reworked in a way that gave it a Support item only UNIQUE Passive: that would allow the user to stack attacks on an enemy and enhance the effect.
