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I don't think assassins were handled right

superfire444··49 votes·3,254 views

Note: I was a leblanc main note 2: Leblanc is super strong but her kit is clunky (my opinion)

Champions like leblanc were (rightfully) changed because her QR combo was too strong. I agree. It had no counterplay and caused a lot of frustration when playing against her. Instead of changing her into a burst-mage there were a few other things you could've done to keep her intact and not change her.

  1. you could've made Q and RQ a skillshot
  2. you could've taken power from Q and RQ and put it into E/QE so she has to hit her whole combo
  3. lower her damage

Personally I prefer #1 or #2

Yes she has counterplay now but she isn't the same anymore. Now you are probably wondering why this isn't right as I claimed in my title. It's because other champions have the same "no-counterplay" yet are not changed/given counterplay.

It's weird that champions like Annie has an instant nuke or champions, like Vayne can 2-hit you without you being able to retaliate at all, an Ahri who can blow you up while missing literally every skillshot she has cause of her targeted abilties or a lee-sin kicking you. There are loads of stuff which is annoying to play against or has barely any counterplay. I'm not sure why assassins have to be treated differently. As I mentioned above, other solutions were possible. Pretty sure this game would get really stale if we remove all the high-action champions because they lack counterplay.

I'm sad that one of my beloved, high-speed, high-action champion was removed because she didn't have counterplay yet other abusers of the "no counterplay" tag get to keep on abusing their mechanics.

134 Comments

Penns11 votes

Yeah, burst isnt the only thing that makes an assassin but assassins are still supposed to have actual burst. So if mages/some "fighters" that arent even supposed to have that much burst (like Lux, Viktor or even stuff like Xerath) are allowed to instantly oneshot someone but assassins cant, theres probably something wrong.

Ralanr2 votes

Yeah, and it'll probably be fixed in their respective reworks (or with mages, nerfs. Though if a mage is using their full combo to kill then I see nothing wrong).

Penns2 votes

Full combo, why not, but not full combo in like ~1 second or less. I mean when you see Lux, a control mage that is supposed to have utility and CC, fire her Q, E and charge lazer at the same time to instantly 100-0 a carry... yeah. Even Xerath can like instantly oneshot people with EWQ + thunderlords lol.

Ralanr13 votes

It's not one shotting if he needs to hit 3 abilities.

Honestly I feel Lux's E hurts too much for the utility it provides (slow and vision). Though dying after a binding and an ult make sense. That's basically the Lux combo.

superfire4441 votes

Old leblanc could kill you with 3 abilities too

Ralanr1 votes

It sure didn't feel like it since I kept dying to her dash. She just got so fed every game.

superfire4442 votes

She couldn't kill with just her W but even if that was the case she should be nerfed on her W damage not reworked like this

Penns3 votes

Well Annie needs 3 spells to oneshot too. I fint it kind of dumb how a control mage like Lux can instakill any carry for hitting 1 skillshot. Viktor not even needing actual skillshots is even more fun.

Ralanr6 votes

{quoted}

Well Annie needs 3 spells to one shot too.

...

I fint it kind of dumb how a control mage like Lux can instakill any carry for hitting 1 skillshot. Viktor not even needing actual skillshots is even more fun.

First let's remember that carries are squishy and can die to anything. Now, if Viktor or Lux didn't have much kill pressure then they wouldn't be good picks at all.

Though I do think her ult CD is too goddamn low.

Astôlfo8 votes

Oneshot isn't in literal sense. It means in one visible sweep.

AKA, not separate fragmented parts, like with Taliyah for example. W delay into E into W knock into Q hits into a few autos is visibly multi-part.

Old Talon R-E-W-auto-Qing and killing someone in 0.5 seconds is a "oneshot" because it all happened in said blink of an eye, even if it was multiple abilities.

Ralanr3 votes

So when people are complaining about being one shotted, they are complaining about dying to the full combo?

And this isn't a clarification issue with anyone?

Astôlfo4 votes

There's pretty much no one spell or ability that will ever kill a full health target that's on equal terms with them.

Ralanr2 votes

That's why I take one shotting so literal. Because there's not supposed to be and if there is then there is a problem.

Dying to a full mage combo isn't a problem. It's reality when squishy.

superfire4444 votes

so old assassins were fine according to you?

Ralanr2 votes

Old Kat could get a bunch of kills in a teamfight with just her R.

No. I wasn't fine with old assassins because of how incredibly feast or famine they were.

superfire4442 votes

But you didn't mind their kill potential? if LB QRE you were ok with that?

Ralanr2 votes

I don't mind kill potential (something that they all still have) I just minded how feast and famine they were.

Katarina pretty much just needed two kills from a botlane roam to win lane.

ShaolinToilet2 votes

Just play a tank mid lane

Astôlfo2 votes

Not from full health targets, she couldn't.

Old-Katarina used her R as a cleanup on low-health targets and then used E-W to jump to the remaining survivors.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

It's not really the same. Mages mostly lack mobility and don't have mechanics like invisibility. You see a mage walking in your direction, the intention is pretty clear.

Old assassins like Talon, Rengar and all that stuff... They don't have to just walk visibly in your direction, you got oneshotted without warning. There was a Talon invisible and you instantly died. You saw Leblanc on the other side of the screen, the next heartbeat she is right next to you and murdering you instantly.

That is actually a big difference, the mage is walking to you and you can play around that. An assassin was coming out of nowhere and that meant you were not able to play around him in any way if he is bursting you instantly, too.

Hinagiku336 votes

If a single opponent kills you so fast you can't even tell how many abilities hit you, there's a problem.

Mages can kill with a full combo just like Assassins can...but if Mages can kill much faster while being at much less risk when they do so, there is a big problem.

Verdade2 votes

Burst mages, such as Viktor or VK are immobile, whereas Assassins are most mobile class in the League. If you see mage coming, you know he's a threat. But you don't see Rengar, Shaco or Talon coming before they are in your face

Votable Jester3 votes

Mages also can't get out of trouble anywhere near as easily as assassins.

Sire Hippington5 votes

wherefor mages have range. When a talon is close enough to use his gapcloser on you, a mage is close enough to use his combo on you. Really, why do people pretend that range isn't the massive advantage it is? High mobillity on squishy melees is merely a way to offset their range disadvantage...

Penns2 votes

Are you one of those guys that say "only killing someone with 1 spell is a oneshot"? :D

Thats exactly my problem, they probably still would be. Viktor has his Q shield and speed boost to kite + damage consistently and his W to zone and pressure. Lux has awesome cc with some cdr and a strong shield for her team. And dont forget how both have godlike wave clear, which can be enough reason to pick them already.

Of course they still need "kill pressure", but it shouldnt be "go anywhere near them, boom dead".

Limrick2 votes

How does Lux have godlike waveclear? Pretty much any mage can clear faster outside of using her ult for waveclear.

Ahri Anivia AurelionSol Azir Brand Corki Diana Karma Leblanc Lissandra Malzahar Morgana Orianna Ryze Syndra Taliyah Varus Veigar Velkoz Viktor Xerath Ziggs Zyra All have better waveclear.

RavenMagus2 votes

Though I do think her ult CD is too goddamn low.

Considering how long her normal cooldowns are, and how little the ult actually does compared to some other mage ults, I'd say the low CD is pretty fine.

People like to complain about Lux being able to nuke an entire team, but it's actually almost impossible to hit a 5 man laser with how narrow it is. Hitting a 5 man Orianna ult is both easier and more impactful.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

There's a problem when a champion uses her ultimate for waveclear.

Limrick1 votes

Only when it's necessary though, since otherwise it takes a while for her to clear compared to other mages. She can't even one-shot the caster minions with E at most points in the game unless she's fed off her ass. Her ult cooldown is low because she needs it for a kill, which a lot of mages don't. Her Q and E have cooldowns too long for Lux to give any meaningful DPS, which is why each one packs such a punch.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

But there's no reason for her to hit 6, ult the wave, back and shop, and have it up by the time she's back.

RavenMagus3 votes

The cooldown's not that short at level 6. It's not till 16 (and a bunch of CDR) that she gets that infamously short CD ultimate.

Besides, why is that not allowed when Anivia can do the same, or Ekko could use his ulti to simply never leave lane in the first place?

NineTailedMystic1 votes

80s Rank 1 probably with Codex (10% CDR) by level 6 is 72s. 8s back and probably a 30s walk back to lane leaves a 32s CD. This doesn't include any shopping time which is dependent on the player. Champions with longer ult CDs got their ult CD nerfed so they can't kill you with it and when they come back to lane kill you again.

Anivia's is a higher Mana drain and is much less safe than Lux with it. Ekko has to be a quick shopper to use his ult to go back to lane, and gives up a ton for using it since its such a long CD.

I'm not saying Lux is op, but that ult CD is ridiculously short at all stages in the game.

RavenMagus1 votes

You never go Codex first. If you're heading to Morello's, you're getting the mana book first because you really need the mana (dat 110 mana E though). If you're going Abyssal for some reason, you get the Negatron cloak because that's probably why you're going Abyssal in the first place. Same with Zhonya's and Seeker's Suckguard.

But, it's not unlikely to have close to 10% at that point from scaling runes and Intelligence mastery anyways. But I digress.

You're right, her ult CD is ridiculously short. I still don't think it's that bad early game though, and I don't think it's too silly to exist - plenty of other silly things in the game other than a low ult CD.

Being able to shoot lasers so often is one of the reasons I really like playing Lux, and one reason why I always try to max CDR on her.

Limrick1 votes

What are your thoughts on RoA for Lux? I use it all the time and it works pretty damn well. The larger mana pool is helpful and the health helps you live a lot that you otherwise couldn't. Especially since all the other tanky options are bad on Lux.

RavenMagus1 votes

Rod of Ages is my go-to defensive item, when I'm facing an enemy (midlane or jungler especially) who can dive in on me really easy. Fizz, Leblanc, Hecarim - all good choices to build Rod of Ages against. I prefer not to build it, but going Morellos first is really greedy, and you can only really do that safely if you're against another long range mage who can't engage on you easily.

Verdade2 votes

There isn't? She's simply trading kill potential for lane control

BakedLotion2 votes

{quoted}

It's not one shotting if he needs to hit 3 abilities.

Honestly I feel Lux's E hurts too much for the utility it provides (slow and vision). Though dying after a binding and an ult make sense. That's basically the Lux combo.

It cant even oneshot caster minions unless shes super fed. What u mean. Its 60% ap with a below average base damage. People dont even use it for the slow eother

Ralanr1 votes

Doesn't feel very weak imo.

BakedLotion2 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't feel very weak imo.

stop giving lux enough kills to feed africa 60 / 105 / 150 / 195 / 240 (+ 60% AP)

That's insanely weak. For comparison purposes, Zigg's Q with a MUCH shorter cooldown 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+ 65% AP)

Karma's Q 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 60% AP)

i wonder what is considered weak if lux E feels strong

Limrick3 votes

It feels strong because it's easy to get hit by it probably. Also Luden's.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, burst isnt the only thing that makes an assassin but assassins are still supposed to have actual burst. So if mages/some "fighters" that arent even supposed to have that much burst (like Lux, Viktor or even stuff like Xerath) are allowed to instantly oneshot someone but assassins cant, theres probably something wrong.

I mean, Lux is literally labeled as a burst mage, because she's meant to burst.

And as I proved to you, a Fizz who puts in the bare minimum amount of effort on his combo on an ADC with a GA will 10-0 them late game, without an exlixir and without building full damage.

Dolasaur4 votes

Ahri who can blow you up while missing literally every skillshot she has cause of her targeted abilities

If you hit with everything, W and R have a total 1.54 AP scaling and mediocre base damage for a mage. If Ahri beats you in one combo with just W + R, she's already ridiculously fed. And you're probably playing Mini Gnar with 0 bonus health or MR.

HazyCloud74 votes

I'm in the same boat. LeBlanc is my 2nd highest mastery champion and although I really enjoyed playing her, I recognized that playing against her was a pretty miserable experience for people and her point click damage needed to be toned down in favor of other parts of her kit. And then riot decided to just turn her into a mage with mobility.

When they rework champions riot places too much emphasis on "theme" and not enough on trying to retain the champion's core play style, which for LeBlanc was that of a backline assassin.

And now after what they did to Anivia I can't help but wonder if an adc main is blackmailing the riot balance team or something. It would really explain a lot about their direction of the assassin rework, for one.

The Great Divide1 votes

Couldn't have blackmailed them too hard, because we still have Annie , as well as arguably more frustrating to play against Khazix and Rengar

bbQsauçe3 votes

[deleted]

DoktorKaiser3 votes

Zed wasnt nerfed except for early game where he was oppresive. Akali was gutted but she should be honestly, she has way too much damage and snowball for being that easy (I dont usually use this argument, but seriously Akali is top 5 braindead champs) and having 0 counterplay now after pink ward gutting. Shaco changes were pretty stupid, I agree. LeBlanc was for the better but she is overtuned af, and Q shouldnt have stayed a point click, she needs nerfs, and why does she have waveclear now??? Katarina was the best rework honestly. Talon feels hit or miss, his melee Q damage is way too big at all points of the game, but can be flashed so I guess its meh. Kha didnt need any changes, the changes suck massive balls, they made him broken and established his evolving order even more instead of making every evolve feel good on its own. Rengar still cancer, they should just give up on his whole concept and do full VGU. Fizz is still cancer, triforce tank build is still working pretty well, his lane and waveclear were buffed (why???), ap build is a bit too strong but tank is the problem.

TeCoolMage2 votes

The new assassins are so freaking fun tho

Watching someone explode when hitting my E (instead of just QRE gg double sigil proc didn't even have to use the CC) while saying, "wait for ittttt" is so satisfying.

Weathered1 votes

Tbh not much changed with Khazix. He's just is less fun and more reliable.

DoktorKaiser4 votes

He was perfectly balanced and now he is broken. W feels like even bigger piece of shit to evolve, Q is even more broken, R is a lot stronger but still Q is a must have for damage and you cant last to lvl 16 without E so its a must evolve 2. and that leaves R at lvl 16 and we have a clear must evolve path, which is exactly opposite of what they wanted to do on Kha.

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