Having a legitimate discussion here is nigh-impossible

Enosetc·Jul 30, 2015·106 votes·4,717 views

If you're not agreeing with a common opinion.

It doesn't matter how much you have to offer in the way of statistics or any other form of impartial, factual evidence. Most of the time, if it's not something along the lines of "Riven/Zed/Yasuo is OP!!!!" then the majority of the people on this Board will tell you to "use your game knowledge" or "learn to dodge the skillshot" or (and this is my favorite one) "learn some counterplay".

What kills me about this is that most of the time what they have to say in response is either completely wrong or so ridiculously cliché that it can be applied to anything anyone has to say about this game. For example, I had someone say that Syndra could survive a hit for 925 damage in response to a comment thread about a 925 AP Veigar's ultimate. Seriously?

I don't want to make this about elo, but the majority of the people who take these approaches to discussion are usually unranked or in low-silver tiers and believe that gameplay revolves around their experiences just because they make up the majority. This isn't to say that these behaviors only come from people on the lower end of the ladder. This isn't an elo problem -- it's a mindset problem. People who behave this way completely drive most of the discussion on this Board and choke out most perspectives that don't match their own, which is why you will never go a single day without seeing a complaint thread regarding Annie or Riven.

I know this won't be received well, but someone had to say it.

131 Comments

LuckyJul 31, 201528 votes

This place is a huge low elo circlejerk only useful for farming upvotes.

whats new.

EnosetcJul 31, 201519 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stephanie Stone,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awRxGKY5,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-07-31T02:50:38.087+0000)

This place is a huge low elo circlejerk only useful for farming upvotes.

whats new.

ya but i'd rather it be somewhat hospitable for discussion because we already have reddit for circlejerking and farming upvotes

BlacknemesistAug 1, 20153 votes

{quoted}

ya but i'd rather it be somewhat hospitable for discussion because we already have reddit for circlejerking and farming upvotes

The game is toxic as hell why would the boards be different? Maybe instead of free-to-play they should ask for 10-15 euros to activate the account and then give you the equivalent in RP. Bam, kids gone, smurfing gone and we can all try to enjoy a game.

macromiteAug 1, 20151 votes

that is about the worst idea I have ever heard.

BlacknemesistAug 6, 20151 votes

Why? You will eventually spend more than 10-15 euros anyway so you do it to activate the account. The only people that don't benefit from this are people who like to smurf to stomp new players and those who flame like hell just because they are not in an account they invested money in so a ban is not important. Which are you?

macromiteAug 6, 20151 votes

because in league you don't spend money at first, almost no one does, you do that at a later date. this game is too hard to get into for the cost, and a lot of players will feel cheated when they pay for a game that in their eyes is incredibly difficult and boring, so they wouldn't keep paying, and would probably stop playing altogether. and you also underestimate trolls, they will still flame like hell even with this, because that's honestly the only way they can have fun anyway.

I'm a normal player, I buy a lot of skins, and have invested at least 100 or so dollars into this game. I don't smurf, you're idea is just bad when you start to actually think about it.

Emperor TimeJul 31, 20155 votes

Bro, you couldn't have said it any better, the minority of people who are actually plat and up on these forums usually post something and give reasons why, but everyone else just think everything is OP as fuck and there's no counterplay. Like zed....this mother fucker isn't OP god damn it, his ult is the easiest shit in the game to counter. Like i'm pretty sure he's the only assassin who's ult can be avoided with zhonya's and QSS, which is really huge for zed because if he can't kill his target then why even play him. It literally takes a god damn brain cell to go to the store to pick up a QSS, but oh no i'm in silver/bronze so I don't wanna press more buttons. Jesus fuck like these forums are giving cancer.

JustMyBassCannonJul 31, 20156 votes

Unranked here

(a) You're right, Zed isn't OP. He's actually one of the most balanced-on-release assassins on Riot's record. (b) QSS is an inefficient choice if you're laning directly against him, so generically saying "MAHGAWD JUST BUY QSS" is not helping any more than "JUST CC THEM." (c) Of the minority of plat people that show up in the forums, I've seen two make solid, concise threads/posts that were intelligent and not narcissistic. Otherwise, most of them are basically jerking off to their rank and telling people that they can't possibly know how the game works because they didn't get ~~carried~~ to Plat.

Yeah, the forums are a cancer-breeding ground, and it's caused by both sides coming up with convoluted bullshit and not taking a second to think or listen. A lot more of it from the majority of low players, definitely, but higher ranking isn't a stainless, ivory tower either.

foinhasAug 2, 20151 votes

^^ This!

I've seen diamond players telling people that warding is wrong because they never ward. If you try to reason with them (maybe they won the game because everyone else in the team except them were warding?) they just pull ranks and tell you to stfu...

If a big part of the community feels that X champion is a problem, then X champion IS a problem... LoL isn't just for the few elite...

Besides, balance isn't just about buffs and nerf, reworking champions/items/masteries and runes is also a way of balancing. But when you have several overloaded champions that can offset any weakness with a skill/item, it starts to become frustrating to play this game.

SachabotJul 31, 201520 votes

It's not really a discussion board, I've come to realize. The forums are an echo chamber for people with a bone to pick.

DrCyanideJul 31, 201516 votes

The lack of discussion comes from two places:

Low Elo players post things as they see them.
High Elo players don't explain things.

I can't fault the low elo players for posting what they see in the game. They comment on the state of gameplay and balance as they see it. I'd hazard to guess that many who are asking for buffs/nerfs would be content if they had discussions which showed weaknesses/strengths that they could use in game.

Instead what happens is that more experienced players down vote them, and proceed to either give the generic advice, such as "just cc them", or mock their game knowledge. It doesn't even matter if the low elo player brings up math or stats, because they'll be dismissed as being low elo, or the high elo players will take the weakest of several points and harp on that until the end of time (this happened to me fairly recently, where I laid out 5 reasons to consider taking Runeglaive in lane despite it being nerfed and only 1 was talked about).

Flip the tables around, it can come off equally condemning. A high elo player makes a post (lets say it's requesting a buff for someone who's hard to deal with at low elo, but is very weak in high elo), and low elo players down vote them and post why that's a horrible idea. Again, low elo players can only post from what they see in the game.

I guess what I want to see from high elo players is more of a "I was there, that sucks, but then you get to this point and you realize it's not so bad" approach to G&B discussions. I remember when I first started playing against intermediate bots and thought they were very hard to beat. How I wished Riot would add a difficulty between Beginner and Intermediate! But I got better at the basic game mechanics and they stopped being a problem. I imagine that it's a similar story for anything that a low elo player can bring to these boards, where there are high elo players that have been there, but have experienced the solution to that problem themselves.

I could be wrong, but I'd guess that everyone who posts on the Gameplay & Balance board would like to be better at the game. Some may be trying for it harder than others, but everyone would like to improve. I think if more people share what they know, it'll help the boards community to become better and add a lot of worth-while discussion in between the circlejerks.

GundayMondayJul 31, 20153 votes

I've tried that a few times. Sometimes people are into it and listen. Most times any advice or logic gets downvoted to oblivion and nasty words get thrown my way. Even if the post is something like "Well no actually, you have counterplay strategies 1, 2, 3, 4, and sometimes 5 to deal with that thing you said was OP-BROKEN, and they work because of X, Y, and Z."

Maybe we need to use more breaking bad gifs to explain tactics.

macromiteAug 1, 20152 votes

That is about the best Idea I have ever heard. using gifs to explain tactics, that is.

IcyPepperJul 31, 20159 votes

Low elo scrub here.

I agree, OP. You make quite a fair point.

Personally, I wish people were more accepting on tips of counterplay (someone once told me Ekko's W had "literally no counterplay") while also being more... willing to dish out tips. Like, I want a bit more than "rush zhonyas, get QSS, take exhaust" against Zed. Like, I know what to build, but what do I do?

Low elos can learn a lot from higher elos, but I've seen some noses turned up. But we make up quite a bit of the problem (there's more of us, so logic... yeah, we cause problems), especially when we act all high and mighty and ignore advice given to us in the first place (we're lower elo for a reason. Face it guys, higher elos are typically more skilled on average. Use that game knowledge to climb, not as an excuse). It's no wonder why there's so much friction.

tl;dr: low elos could use advice, higher elos could give more advice, and both sides could be more willing to be civil about it.

BonipherusJul 30, 20157 votes

I could write so much about this topic... but it's true. Even if you make a really good thread nobody will really contribute to it in a meaningful way. You expect a baseline level of intellectual honesty and logical analysis but it just doesn't exist here. Instead you will receive one or two sentence answers that are often somewhat insulting instead of addressing or even acknowledging there could be a problem or offering anything constructive to the topic.

AnidanJul 31, 20152 votes

I agree. I could write a lot about the topic as well, but to keep it short: this echo chamber (as I'm going to steal from Sachabot over there, because I like that quite a lot) isn't for rational conversation. It's constructed in such a way to be able to allow you to yell at the top of your lungs and drown out quieter conversations trying to happen beneath the cacophonous noise. Only the loudest sounds are widely heard, and when people want their frustrations known they'll let that cry out for as long as they can to make sure they can't simply be ignored. I really wanted the forums to be used for something more constructive than being an echo chamber for people gathered to pick at a bone together, and I wanted the boards to be more useful much the same, but it isn't. The format doesn't lend itself to that kind of function. It lends itself to the most popular, and the most popular topics are usually just parrots of a common opinion: speaking no original thoughts, but only what they heard before, and know that the people want to hear it again and again until some other words are fed through the mouth of the parrot.

Dig DuxJul 31, 20157 votes

correct, since we know that riot does not respond to well constructed posts and only the highest upvoted threads are visible, the only thing riot sees is circle-jerk and so they have no reason to respond to it, but they always respond to the circle jerk so they can support the circle jerk hence the community thinks riot supports them. The actual forums are long dead. There is a snowball's chance in hell of getting any kind of visibility with a thought out idea.

BonipherusJul 31, 20153 votes

Apologies in advance for anything spelling related as I am on my phone.

I believe there are three quality of life changes that can be made to the boards to enhance discussions.

The first is a sorting issue. Almost everything is going to fall into the gameplay and balance section of the forums as that's the main concern for most players and it's just so incredibly broad. Gameplay and balance needs to be sorted into multiple sections like: map balance, jungle balance, lane balance, champion balance, and an extra category foranything else. Also champion balance could be sorted by champion allowing for even clearer issue finding.

Also it'd be great if at the end of this when someone makes a new board, someone could just redirect you to a board already discussing the matter.

The second change would be the search option. You need advanced search options to find what you need to find. If I'm looking for fiddlesticks new ability suggestions from other players it'd be great to be able to sort through those. Allowing players to easily find already made boards on what they want to talk about would really help reduce the clutter. There's probably more advantages to this that I'm overlooking.

And finally is another rating system. Something beyond a "thumbs up or thumbs down" approach. You give a rating to boards or comments based on how constructive they are. Low scores mean low constructive criticism and mostly just bitching. Thumbs up would mean you agree or dissagree with what the person said overall and the constructive rating would be based on whether the person is contributing to discussion or is trolling, whining, et cetera.

I pretty much just came up with 2 of these right now and I realize there are some problems but if you'd like to discuss them then please do.

ModAttysu The PoroJul 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I could write so much about this topic... but it's true. Even if you make a really good thread nobody will really contribute to it in a meaningful way. You expect a baseline level of intellectual honesty and logical analysis but it just doesn't exist here. Instead you will receive one or two sentence answers that are often somewhat insulting instead of addressing or even acknowledging there could be a problem or offering anything constructive to the topic.

Only time I've ever heard something logical and analytic on this forum is on the Story & Art section.

That's sad.

VardenSaladJul 31, 20157 votes

I think we used to have a forum that promoted more discussion based on its format. It's been a long time since the old forums; I don't remember if they were better...

For what it's worth, for an extremely long time on the forums you see before you, the highest rated post of all time was a response form the community to Riot that they wanted the old forums and old forum style, instead of a Reddit clone. Based on how that whole thing went down (nothing changed, obviously) a tone was set in terms of general cynicism toward Riot the game company, its employees, and the players of this game.

Something you'll find here is that people generally don't consider other people important; it's even worse for your particular issue because there's no easy way of determining someone's skill level like there would be on Reddit (where high elo individuals post and make themselves known). You're getting the dregs here; mostly from the inability of Riot to differentiate the forums from the Reddit community.

So, yeah...

manbearswineJul 31, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I think we used to have a forum that promoted more discussion based on its format. It's been a long time since the old forums; I don't remember if they were better...

It was better,the current format encourages people to focus on the big upvoted threads more than the old format,which makes discussions nearly impossible(circlejerk for highly upvoted threads,very little attention to everything else). I mean the upside is for people who just want to get a very fast very general idea on what's going on(but we already had reddit for that),the downside is for everything else.

Something you'll find here is that people generally don't consider other people important; it's even worse for your particular issue because there's no easy way of determining someone's skill level like their would be on Reddit.

You can always just lolking the guy,the issue is with the current format sensible people who see a high elo post generally don't see much of a sense of arguing with it(as even if it's wrong they most likely don't know why it is that way),so instead you just get replies from "challengers stuck in silver",which mostly just take up space and make people read worthless nonsense.

OperationDEEZ1Jul 30, 20154 votes

http://s9.postimg.org/6lp50q5en/60s_spiderman_I_see_your_point_arrow_face_135467.jpg

Cloud PotatoJul 31, 20154 votes

Having a legitimate discussion anywhere is difficult. There are too many people determined to be proven right instead of finding out what is right, for some reason or another. If you're gonna debate on the internet, you have to accept that many of the people who respond aren't interested in an honest debate, and you have to adjust your tactics accordingly, without becoming dishonest yourself of course.

Adrian UmbraJul 31, 20154 votes

You have a lot of good points and it really is disappointing to see a huge lack of care when it comes to quality threads (the old CF forums were at least somewhat better quality, even if reds never visited them). However, I also get pretty sick of the anti-Silver-and-below circlejerk, which is just as annoying and from folks who should know better. Rank is never an argument for or against anything and anyone claiming that it is is just as bad as a Bronzie whining about how they just got stomped by a Poppy. If you provide proof, evidence, and numbers to your arguments, power to you, regardless of whether you're a level 17 or Master level.

So please don't place all the blame on Silvers and below, attitude problems aren't exclusive to that group.

straight4freeJul 31, 20153 votes

People have trouble with Annie in all elos.

But it's true that you don't get good conversation here.

xXKUR0S4K1XxJul 31, 20153 votes

I agree especially with the mindset one. It's a problem when you have to spell out everything you mean slowly and carefully. You can't assume that people here have an average IQ. They probably do but I have this theory that they always assume you are a dumb fucker. No matter what you say they will interpret the dumbest shit it COULD mean. Instead of that you should always assume that other people wanted to say the smartest thing you can interpret out of a sentence they said.

Also people hate on people that have a strong stance on something (as long as it's not the majority). I remember making a thread about how weak bard was shortly after release (5 days maybe). Of course you can't accurately gauge a champs strength in that timeframe but for bard it was so obvious he was just too weak (obviously I provided statistics to back that up). Naturally most people just told me to shut up instead of discussing if he is really too weak and just pointed to gnar and yasuo. Obviously Bard ended up getting huge buffs the next 2 patches.

Instead of hating on unpopular opinions people should take their time to actually think about it and always pretend it's a high level guy posting that stuff.

Remlap1223Jul 31, 20153 votes

Yep. I was one of the first people to call out Fizz's and LeBullshit's bullshit on the forums and I more or less got a "git gut scrub" response from Silver II and Gold V players. And then Ryze and Ziggs got nerfed into oblivion, and the Ahri, Fizz, LeBlanc trifecta came into full swing, and SHOCKINGLY it's now cool to hate on those champions.

You're right, the forums do not promote discussion. It's nothing more than a circlejerk of angry lower ELO players who worship Yolo Queue and if you're below Silver I, you should kiss the ass of every higher ELO player you meet, and if you're Bronze, well, you might as well kill yourself cuz you're already a scrub at this game, and probably have no friends.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 31, 20153 votes

It's nice to know that low elos are the blame for every problem on this earth. In Plat+, Annie and Riven both have about an 11% ban rate. That's in the top 20% of banned champions. Because only low elo players dislike Annie and Riven. Zed is sitting at a 12% ban rate. Yasuo has a 7.5% ban rate, still in the top third of banned champions. But research isn't something low elo players can do. Low elo players sit in the stone age trying to figure out how to make fire.

EnosetcJul 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

It's nice to know that low elos are the blame for every problem on this earth. In Plat+, Annie and Riven both have about an 11% ban rate. That's in the top 20% of banned champions. Because only low elo players dislike Annie and Riven. Zed is sitting at a 12% ban rate. Yasuo has a 7.5% ban rate, still in the top third of banned champions. But research isn't something low elo players can do. Low elo players sit in the stone age trying to figure out how to make fire.

you're misunderstanding me. i'm not saying that everyone in low elo has the same mindset that i see as problematic. i'm saying that a lot of the people with this mindset happen to be in low elo.

do some people in mid and high elo have the same attitude? absolutely! but they don't make up the majority of the playerbase, so there's less people who have similar experiences in their games as them.

if this situation was completely inverted and high elos were the majority that drove the discussion on this board, i'd be making the same statement because, once again, this isn't an elo problem. it's a mindset problem.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 31, 20152 votes

This is basically just saying "The majority of players, and in turn, the majority of people on the boards, are the ones in most of these discussions." I think that's how majorities work. There's really no point to that entire paragraph in the OP if it's just saying "The majority of players lead the majority of discussions."

EnosetcJul 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This is basically just saying "The majority of players, and in turn, the majority of people on the boards, are the ones in most of these discussions." I think that's how majorities work. There's really no point to that entire paragraph in the OP if it's just saying "The majority of players lead the majority of discussions."

i'm not talking about the entirety of players on the lower end of the ladder. i'm talking specifically about the ones who are on the lower end who contribute negatively to discussion by talking about their experiences as if they're the only ones that matter in the game.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 31, 20151 votes

And it is very rare that high elo players actually help and say something. For example, I've looked at a lot of Vayne posts lately, and I think I've seen only one other person say that her weakness is larger fights with more people.

SammystormJul 31, 20151 votes

High elo people have a very poor tendency to explain things you are correct. That is also a mind set problem. However low elo people have the tendency to not understand finer game mechanics and to therefor make false assumptions and claims. The problem needs to be fixed on both ends.

As for Vayne solutions. She is strong in extended team fight situations but she also has short range and has to be close to you. So the best way to counter her is to burst her hard, zone her out of the fight with aoe, or just pile in on her when she engages because of her close range. Also you need to remember to not duel her unless you are ahead of her, have a champion that duels better, or you have enough burst to take out at least 75% of her hp bar out in the initial combo.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 31, 20151 votes

You are completely correct about Vayne. So why do I never see it anywhere ever? That seems like something I should see more often with how many people say Vayne is OP, but I never seem to see it.

BonipherusJul 31, 20152 votes

I'll use another game as an example for my point later. My friends and I would play final fantasy dissidia and I'd often play Exdeath, an extremely defensive character that could block nearly any attack in the game and then counter you hard after a successful block. If played properly, there was almost nothing you could do against an exdeath other than try and fake the player out and make them whiff their block to leave them open. So in theory that character should win basically every matchup. But in practice he wasn't played as often by others and didn't win too many tournaments due to tight timing on his omni block move and high level mind games. I think this may be a similar case whith Vayne. She has that same, nearly limitless potential but is quite hard to use and requires lots and lots of practice. Like Exdeath, her design counters core system mechanics (in her case this would be health and armor stacking) which in a lot of theory crafting makes her the best.

Cloud PotatoJul 31, 20154 votes

There are more low ELOs than high ones. It's a numbers game. Low ELO players are more likely to be dumb, and that's because game knowledge is a factor in how good you are. Again, numbers. You can't look at specific people and say 'he's low ELO, so he's dumb' fairly, but as a general trend it's appropriate to note.

KilljoyXJul 31, 20153 votes

{quoted} I don't want to make this about elo, but the majority of the people who take these approaches to discussion are usually unranked or in low-silver tiers and believe that gameplay revolves around their experiences just because they make up the majority. This isn't an elo problem -- it's a mindset problem. People who behave this way completely drive most of the discussion on this Board and choke out most perspectives that don't match their own, which is why you will never go a single day without seeing a complaint thread regarding Annie or Riven.

I don't understand why people don't believe statistic driven questions. Like for example win rate. Yes it's not a perfect determiner of strength but it's reasonable to assume something like jinx, ashe, or sivir is OP when they are the top 3 win rates AND The top 3 play rates at most elos.

The same can be said of things like warwick or other champs.

Statistics are frowned upon for no real reason. They don't belive it because... frankly I don't know why. There are numbers I sometimes question (Galio has the highest win rate for top... but a .4% pick rate with most players having >50 games on him) but things with a statistically significant sample size should really be considered more seriously.

Cloud PotatoJul 31, 20152 votes

That's because a single statistic doesn't tell the whole story. You can't determine a champion's power by win rate alone. It's still a useful thing to know, of course. As for why people ignore it, it's a common logical fallacy people use on the internet: "if it's not useful on its own, its useless". Its a very useful tool to discount a fact that doesn't agree with your point of view.

Shroom JunkieJul 31, 20153 votes

Nobody listens to me about Cho'gath.

100% AP ratio large AOE knockup, 70% AP ratio cone-AOE 1.5-2.5 second silence, an AA buff that damages the target and all targets behind it and beside it in an AOE for 30% of AP, natural tankiness with his ult, and a built-in smite + 70% AP extra damage, plus a mini-Darius ult(though unfortunately using it means you can't smite with your ult, and vise versa)

All people say when I put forth my argument is "learn how to dodge his q its sooo easy," meanwhile I can't even dash out of the fucking thing let alone walk. Oh and the occasional "but nunu has a built-in smite gotta nerf nunu", like wtf? Nunu isn't anything like Cho'gath.

JAGMAGJul 31, 20153 votes

well on the other side of the elo coin there's the higher elos who refuse to consider anything silver or bronzes say because "your a bronze noob you know nothing"

PæanJul 31, 20152 votes

" For example, I had someone say that Syndra could survive a hit for 925 damage in response to a comment thread about a 925 AP Veigar's ultimate. Seriously?" well, what kind of bronze Syndra doesnt rush a item 3155 vs a Veigar , thats like her core man.

No, but really there are too many people that unflinchingly believe they are always right, and that will never change.

ViddaxJul 31, 20152 votes

I said something very similar two days ago. Why hasn't my thread been well received while yours has? I'm bronze.

YCitizenSnipsYJul 31, 20152 votes

If I can brutally honest here op, you have a terrible argument. Your main complaint is that there are no meaningful discussions on these boards, but where is the discussion in this post? Instead of identifying the problem as nonconstructive shit posting and discussing with the people in this thread on how to fix that, it seems you would rather just blame low elo players for the problems and call it a day. I honestly cant understand why you complain about the circlejerk mentality on these boards since all you're doing with this post is circlejerking high elo players, you basically fit right in on these boards.

ZyorhistJul 31, 20152 votes

you ask for a legitimate discussion then proceed to rant. What would you like to have an actual discussion on. All I see is you assuming people say what you think they will say.

Kuroi86Aug 1, 20152 votes

For example, I had someone say that Syndra could survive a hit for 925 damage in response to a comment thread about a 925 AP Veigar's ultimate. Seriously?

Hmm... Sorry, you mentioned it and I had to do the math lol. Well, if we're talking late game, then it's possible, but only if Syndra had most of her health, built no AP and Veigar didn't hit her with anything else. 250 / 375 / 500 (+ 100% AP) (+ 80% of target's AP)

Syndra has 1837 health at lvl 18 with no bonus health.

So it would take Syndra having at least 515 AP for the ult to one shot her.

Anyways! To the topic at hand. Yeah, these boards are biased, that is part of why they are here, for people to blow off their steam over getting steamrolled by a champ.
The problem is a lot of people think the boards are their gateway to being Ceo of Riot where they can decide to buff/nerf/delete any given champ and to argue with them means you're a dirty cheater who only uses broken op champs and wouldn't know a fair fight if it hit you right in the nose. Often times they don't take into consideration that their issues aren't shared by everyone.

Case in point.

I hear so much complaining about Riven... I main top lane bruisers Renekton ... Riven has never been a real issue for me. I can point out numerous issues with Riven, but most of the time when I post them, I either get downvoted into oblivion by people claiming Riven is a god or I get a metric ton of upvotes by people who are simply tired of the complaining.

Is Riven strong, hell yes! She's supposed to be, she's one of the last snowball champs left in the game. Is Riven broken, hell no. It's possible to steamroll Riven in the first few levels and leave her useless for the next ten minutes. (Unless she roams mid and gets a quad because your team was dumb and tower dove for a single kill all while ignoring your pings that Riven has left lane and is heading mid...) (I'm not even kidding, it's happened...)

PKnowledgeJul 31, 20151 votes

You must be kidding me OP. Just remember your OWN Veigar thread :

Yes, DFG got removed Yes, his E isn't instant anymore Yes, his Q is a skillshot He still one-shots squishies and can actually interrupt dashes if he times his E correctly. Stop playing him as though his E doesn't have a delay. He can get more farm now that his Q can hit more than one target and doesn't require a target to cast.

Statistic ? Partial evidence ? Where are those things you ask for ? Sure, that's not a common opinion. But if you make a post to refute a common opinion, at least try to develop a bit.

And then you make a new thread about "low-elo that don't know how to discuss something and just want free upvote" ? Man, that's exactly what you're doing with this post. Getting free upvote while not saying much, stating a common opinion.

PS : I'm still waiting for your answer on the Veigar thread, and it took me a while to write mine, because I'm just a low unranked player.

EnosetcJul 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You must be kidding me OP. Just remember your OWN Veigar thread : Yes, his E isn't instant anymore Yes, his Q is a skillshot He still one-shots squishies and can actually interrupt dashes if he times his E correctly. Stop playing him as though his E doesn't have a delay. He can get more farm now that his Q can hit more than one target and doesn't require a target to cast.

Statistic ? Partial evidence ? Where are those things you ask for ? Sure, that's not a common opinion. But if you make a post to refute a common opinion, at least try to develop a bit.

And then you make a new thread about "low-elo that don't know how to discuss something and just want free upvote" ? Man, that's exactly what you're doing with this post. Getting free upvote while not saying much, stating a common opinion.

PS : I'm still waiting for your answer on the Veigar thread, and it took me a while to write mine, because I'm just a low unranked player.

i offered that right here. no one chose to reply to it. also, thanks for trying to consolidate my entire statement to the one part of it that offends you when i even go on to say that it's not specifically an elo problem.

this is exactly what i'm talking about.

PKnowledgeJul 31, 20152 votes

So you listed some numbers, then you think your job is done ? Numbers alone are meaningless. What can you answer to "there is 7 days in a week, 52 weeks in a year" ? And why did you wait for a "OP won't answer" taunt before giving them ? You're not supposed to start a discussion with "Listen, that's how it's done because I said it" if you want it to be legitimate and constructive.

also, thanks for trying to consolidate my entire statement to the one part of it that offends you

I'm not offended. I'm disagreeing. You're still not saying much more than "look you're mad that proves my point", that part is therefore irrelevant and not needed.

when i even go on to say that it's not specifically an elo problem.

Hum...

I don't want to make this about elo, but the majority of the people who take these approaches to discussion are usually unranked or in low-silver tiers and believe that gameplay revolves around their experiences just because they make up the majority.

Then don't mention Elo in the first place ? If I say something like "I don't think that you're an idiot, but I've seen a lot of people like you that were really dumb. But it has nothing to do with you", do you think that I consider you're idiot or not ?

It's easy to tell others that they're bad at discussing. Look like it's harder to do some introspection.

EnosetcJul 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So you listed some numbers, then you think your job is done ? Numbers alone are meaningless. What can you answer to "there is 7 days in a week, 52 weeks in a year" ? And why did you wait for a "OP won't answer" taunt before giving them ? You're not supposed to start a discussion with "Listen, that's how it's done because I said it" if you want it to be legitimate and constructive.

I'm not offended. I'm disagreeing. You're still not saying much more than "look you're mad that proves my point", that part is therefore irrelevant and not needed.

Hum...

Then don't mention Elo in the first place ? If I say something like "I don't think that you're an idiot, but I've seen a lot of people like you that were really dumb. But it has nothing to do with you", do you think that I consider you're idiot or not ?

It's easy to tell others that they're bad at discussing. Look like it's harder to do some introspection.

i'll address each of your points in order:

people suggested that he was weak and i gave numbers that suggested otherwise. i didn't just paste the links there without explaining the point i had in doing so, i explained that in the three tiers that make up the majority of the playerbase (bronze, silver and gold) that he was doing well in spite of the overall negative opinion of him post-rework.

you came off as offended to me because the majority of your reply addressed the part of the OP that mentioned elo and even mentioned it in your closing statement. i didn't type up this thread to get upvotes; i legitimately could not care less about this superficial number that has way too much of an influence on content visibility.

i mentioned elo in my statement because a lot -- not all -- of the problem comes from a vocal minority of people on the lower end of the ladder who behave as though their experiences in-game should dictate the game's balance and that all other perspectives should be disregarded. again, it's not specifically an elo problem because people contribute to healthy discussions regardless of ranking.

as for your analogy, if you word it that way i wouldn't consider it you calling me an idiot; you're outright saying that you don't believe that i am, but there are people in the same boat as me that behave like idiots. that's a fair assessment in my opinion.

PKnowledgeJul 31, 20152 votes

people suggested that he was weak and i gave numbers that suggested otherwise. i didn't just paste the links there without explaining the point i had in doing so, i explained that in the three tiers that make up the majority of the playerbase (bronze, silver and gold) that he was doing well in spite of the overall negative opinion of him post-rework.

So you just made up a link between the winrate and the fact that he's fine. Notwithstanding the really low pickrate that make the winrate less significant, and that you forgot to mention, there is nothing in those numbers that let you know that he's not unfun to play, or if a good E management is the cause of a win, like you stated. As I said, number are meaningless. Giving them some meaning is pointless if you have nothing else to confirm what you're saying.

you came off as offended to me because the majority of your reply addressed the part of the OP that mentioned elo and even mentioned it in your closing statement. i didn't type up this thread to get upvotes; i legitimately could not care less about this superficial number that has way too much of an influence on content visibility.

Ok, my bad, I should have skipped the last part. But me being offended or not is irrelevant to the matter at hand. Even if you did not want those upvote, you still did the exact same thing you pointed out : You stated a common opinion, and got upvoted for that. Why did you make that post then ? You're blaming, and not even suggesting. That's just another Q.Q thread.

i mentioned elo in my statement because a lot -- not all -- of the problem comes from a vocal minority of people on the lower end of the ladder who behave as though their experiences in-game should dictate the game's balance and that all other perspectives should be disregarded. again, it's not specifically an elo problem because people contribute to healthy discussions regardless of ranking. as for your analogy, if you word it that way i wouldn't consider it you calling me an idiot; you're outright saying that you don't believe that i am, but there are people in the same boat as me that behave like idiots. that's a fair assessment in my opinion.

So you're actually saying that despite not being a elo problem, the majority of the problem is due to a part of the low elo players. But that's where I must disagree. Elo has little to do with game knowledge. Sure, you might find more knowledgeable players in diamond than in bronze, but still, you should not mention elo at all. Game knowledge is the only thing that should matter, and the only thing that you could get with the formulation in OP is more offended people.