Supports are the biggest issue with the ADC problem

Potato Doc·Mar 28, 2018·7 votes·884 views

I am in no way hating on supports, in fact I agree with the philosophy that supports should not be the warding bots they were pre season 3 or 4. A lot of the options they now have are engaging tools to be used on the rift. The sad part is that by giving supports more and more options it has made adc too good without being able to remove power from them. Take away early game strength from the ADC and suddenly they cant compete, any gank will work and it would take them 40 minutes to get into the game. Take away their late game and whats the ADC fantasy they are supposed to achieve?

TL:DR allowing supports to be skill expressive with items, while a good idea, has caused ADC to become too problematic for balance.

27 Comments

WiegrafOfValorMar 28, 20184 votes

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/9Deg7VrpHbM/maxresdefault.jpg

#STOP IT!

Stop this ADC mains, please stop this bullsht. Supports have been nerfed several times this year, and ADCs remain broken. You know where the problem lies, the problem is ADCs dealing a third of everyone's HP per auto, twice a second.

ARDENT CENSOR HAVE BEEN NERFED = ADCS STILL BROKEN
TANK SUPPORT HAVE BEEN NERFED = ADCS STILL BROKEN
SUPPORT ITEMS GOLD HAVE BEEN NERFED = ADCS STILL BROKEN
TARGON'S HP HAVE BEEN NERFED = ADCS STILL BROKEN
TARGON'S GOLD WILL BE NERFED AGAIN = I WILL TAKE A WILD GUESS AND SAY THAT ADCS WILL REMAIN BROKEN.

#PLEASE DUDE, STOP THIS CRUSADE OF DEFLECTING THE BLAME. ADCS ARE BROKEN BECAUSE THEY DEAL TOO MUCH DAMAGE, IT'S NOT THEIR SUPPORT, IT'S NOT THE JUNGLER, IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF MID LANE, IT'S DEFINITELY NOT TOP LANE. ADCS ARE BROKEN BECAUSE OF ADCS, JUST ACCEPT THE BLAME FOR ONCE IN 2 YEARS.

FOR JUSTICEMar 28, 20182 votes

the only thing riot hasn't tried yet is a price increase on ADC items to actually make them work for the stats they get.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 28, 20183 votes

Except ADCs have received minimal changes since early season 7, and besides the stint of lethality ADCs, weren’t even remotely considered OP till the Ardent meta came around before Worlds

DrLuauMar 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awAB7rIv,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-03-28T17:24:47.996+0000)

Except ADCs have received minimal changes since early season 7, and besides the stint of lethality ADCs, weren’t even remotely considered OP till the Ardent meta came around before Worlds

Except Riot's also always come to the defense of the support item revamp, so I doubt they're going to scrap it to rebalance the game. And make no mistake, heavily nerfing those items is what will be needed. In lieu of making supports less good at protecting people, riot will reduce adc damage significantly because it's the only design space they've left for themselves if they've chosen the support item hill to die on.

ThefrostyvikingMar 28, 20183 votes

Marksmen dealing a third of anyones health per hit?

Do we even play the same game?

When i play Ashe/cait/mf i struggle just to even take 1/3rd of a seju/cho/malp/rammus/mundo´s health until i hit like 5-6 items, hells, on Ashe i have even managed to die of a rammus W+thornmail alone, guy didnt hit me once and this was at 3 full items and a last whisper.

Even some like Darius can be tough to deal any damage to if i am too busy running away to really hit them.

However i won't claim that there aren't problematic parts, like static shiv, like kog/varus/vayne having insane ability to DPS against anything regardless of resistance or Twitch/trist with the frustrations of playing against them.

But i have never seen any marksman even get close to bursting a tank when even remotely even, i have never seen a assassin fail a 1v1 against any marksman that wasn't vayne/trist/twitch or Xayah in some cases when similarly even remotely even.

The deciding factor, in every other case, what prevents most melee from ever accomplishing anything, what shuts assassins down with point and click abilties, whom also tend to heal and give marksmen constant and large barriers or heals even early.......that is the support.

If we look at the marksman role overall there is hardly any difference from season 3 until now with the exception of some modified items and a few new ones, some new champs and some are reworked but most are infact still the same pretty much.

But something else is very different....the support that used to constantly be down 2-4 levels and thousands of gold is suddenly even in levels, has a solid amount of gold and items and they even tend to have a massive amount of utility built in.

So if we are asking what is causing the marksmen to be so influential compared to before....then its the supports who play the largest part, aside from them, probably static shiv+RFC+ ardent censer.

And yes, ardent censer is still the first item other than a sightstone item that many enhancer supports finish, evidently that item pulls ahead of every other option.

RewtMar 29, 20181 votes

actually the thing is that ADCs get instakilled by assassins...... except for when the support has like 30 tools to cock block the assassin from keeping the ADC in check. So yea. supports are the problem. they disrupt the natural order of things where they are meant to be super easy to kill.

HügöMar 28, 20184 votes

FFS NO. Stop trying to push the issue away from marksmen again. It was done before and guess what, marksmen still broken.

Risk of FateMar 28, 20182 votes

[deleted]

Potato DocMar 28, 20182 votes

supports did function before a lot of these items, but the gameplay was very boring, 100% about mechanics and warding, nothing about buying real items. I do agree with the rest of your point though that too often support items are being misused by other lanes which in turn ruins the items for supports.

undesirable teamMar 28, 20183 votes

they can function if you nerf shit item 3109 is just broken, a free pd passive to one person is stupid item 3504 is free stats item 3190 free shield with huge scaling item 3107 global aoe heal supports are meant to help the adc, not completely negate any damage done to them ( Lulu Janna Sona Taric Karma ).

FOR JUSTICEMar 28, 20181 votes

I mean, preventing instantaneous (NOTE I SAID INSTANTANEOUS) death to a carry is helping. carries don't exactly need anything other then CC and healing because they already have the damage output.

ChaddyFantomeMar 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=undesirable team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=awAB7rIv,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-03-28T16:25:12.742+0000)

is free stats free shield with huge scaling

-Free stats -costs money

pick one

also, Redemption isn't global.

RewtMar 29, 20181 votes

when he said free stats I assume he was referring to the ADC getting the stats and since the ADC doesn't have to pay for them they are technically free.

Just like how when you get free shit from a conference that the company payed for you to go to. its Free to you, but someone else had to pay for that stuff.

RewtMar 28, 20186 votes

I feel like its more of the few problem champs that really show this.

The Cock block supports are the problem

Things like 800hp shield janna with 40% cdr. (they could remove the AP scaling)

Tahm Kench eating his ADC and running at mach 15 from the fight. (they could make tahm slow down when he eats an ally instead of speeding up)

Lulu Polymorph. (SKILL SHOT FFS. If it hits an enemy its polymorph. If it hits an ally its the speedup)

All these have the shared thing that they are massive cock blocks with basically no skill required.

Thats why I love thresh. Everything he does is skill focused. Thresh is the king of support Skill expression. Its why he is always good, but never absolute cancer.

KuboxMar 28, 20181 votes

They removed Tahm's move speed boost a long time ago. He only gets it when chasing enemies with someone in his mouth now.

ChaddyFantomeMar 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

lulu Polymorph. (SKILL SHOT FFS. If it hits an enemy its polymorph. If it hits an ally its the speedup)

That would literally make the ability unusable because you would never have any agency over how you use it. its annoying enough accidentally using it on an Enemy instead of an ally and vice versa as is.

RewtMar 28, 20181 votes

Shit i guess ezreal W is unusable because if you wanna give an ally the AS boost you have to hit them with it.

And im not saying that Polymorph should be blocked by minions. it would be only able to hit champions. But actually forcing the lulu to use their brain and hit the target they want is a positive. It adds skill expression.

Saying that you remove agency from an ability because you force the person to actually hit the target they want to hit instead of being point and click is a horrid argument. It isnt even an argument. Its just incorrect. having a way for these cock block abilities to miss is a positive. Lulu brings so much utility to the table in her kit that making her polymorph a skill shot isnt going to make her or the ability useless. It will just add counterplay.

Lets put it this way. When you get nailed by thresh hook generally speaking its just "shit I got hooked" But there isnt much rage, because that thresh had to weave that hook past minions and other enemies to get you. So good on the thresh.

But polymorph. everyone i play league with. All of us fucking rage when Lulu Polymorphs us because there is nothing we can do about it. You cant out play the lulu. Cause that shit in an instantaneous point and click. It feels good to dodge skill shots. It feels like shit to get point and clicked to death. (its the same argument of why people dont like dying to ADCs)

This doesnt mean all champs with point and click cc are bad for the game. an example is TF. The champ just doesnt bring much to the table. That Targeted stun is like 3/4 of his kit. He Teleports in. And stuns you. thats really it. he has his q but like..... its not much. sure late game it can really hurt but its so easy to dodge cause it moves slower that a slug on salt. But Lulu has so much in her kit in the first place that it doesnt completely ruin the champ to make the polymorph a skill shot.

KuboxMar 28, 20182 votes

I think Riot could give supports less powerful/more niche/harder to abuse items if they just let supports level properly. One really wonders how much of support's power budget is hidden behind a bunch of levels they never get.

Risk of FateMar 28, 20181 votes

[deleted]

KuboxMar 28, 20181 votes

Is she really a good example though? Her stats are horrible and her abilities are balanced around the idea that they will be spammed like hell. Her synergy with various items is what makes most of her power.

Risk of FateMar 28, 20181 votes

[deleted]

KuboxMar 28, 20182 votes

Oh this isn't about making supports not depend on someone else to shine.

Rather, my point is more about how much base stats and ability effectiveness (Cooldown, damage, utility, mana cost, etc) are supports missing out on because of how underleveled they constantly are and if those two things could be "taken out" of their items if supports leveled properly like everyone else.

If supports items could be even less statistically efficient but much better suited at improving their effectiveness through specially designed bonuses, would that not give Riot a better lever at balancing them, instead of constantly struggling to make sure their items are never used on solo laners while also having giving supports enough of those stats they desperately need to remotely feel like a champion.

xelakerMar 28, 20182 votes

I never understood why riot made all of the support items big balls of stat giving nonsense. Engage supports should just get tanky, poke supports can get damage, and heal-y supports can get utility stuffs. Give them a hand with gold earning since they don't farm and move on.

DraehlMar 28, 20182 votes

When burst damage is so high as it is right now supports almost must have insanely strong shields, heals, or damage deterrent of their own to keep their ADC from just getting demolished by all the silly ganks that are currently possible.

Max health needs to be much higher in relation to damage and then you can smack down the OPness of many of the support items/skills. If an ADC can more reasonably be expected to do passably when bullied and rather than die so easily be moreso forced into backing that would be good for the game. Bring back pressure and attrition tactics instead of the current burst combo/tower dives. After all, it is a game about taking objectives and gold, not intrinsically about killing players.

Nea104Mar 28, 20182 votes

I disagree. ADCs are strong by their own. Eg, if you're a good support and your adc is bad, there's no way you win against a good adc and a bad support (besides junglers or other factors).

saltranMar 28, 20181 votes

What about botlane is the 40% of the team and both botlaners should have agency on the game?

What solo laners miss is the times when they alone had the same or more power than a 2 players botlane. So yes, botlane is more important than solo lanes because supps are a real champ now and not a glorified ward dispenser.

And there's nothing wrong about it.