Explain this to me "ADC" Mains

BestPudgeNA·Nov 30, 2018·11 votes·1,598 views

If losing 5 Armor and gaining 6-108 HP was a huge nerf Why does ever Bot lane ADC pick 15-90 HP over the 5 Armor Rune? As of this posting according to OP.GG the number 1 pick and win rate rune in the 3rd row is HP over MR/Armor

It's almost like that wasn't a nerf at all.

inb4 but but base AD was nerfed too! Be honest everyone would take the extra AD scaling over base AD other then maybe Draven if they were given the choice.

-#ADCFakeNews -#ThingsADCsLieAboutForBuffs

42 Comments

Moody PNov 30, 201816 votes

because every support except pyke is doing magic damage, what good does the armor do for them against brand lol

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aprgnraW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-30T17:36:47.134+0000)

because every support except pyke is doing magic damage, what good does the armor do for them against brand lol

But wouldn't you just pick the MR rune in that case? Sure seems like that amount of HP is just better then the armor for an ADC. Not really sure though i'm a braindead hardstuck g5 jungler that can't wrap his head around complex topics like this.

Dr DogNov 30, 20185 votes

then you pick the mr rune and the adc does more its a double edged sword, the mix of dmg bot lane generally makes flat hp a better option in most situations

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aprgnraW,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-30T17:41:23.777+0000)

then you pick the mr rune and the adc does more its a double edged sword, the mix of dmg bot lane generally makes flat hp a better option in most situations

So ADC base stats were buffed and not nerfed then? Weird cause all the ADC mains on the board tell me those stats were gutted. Guess my small jungler brain just doesn't understand from all the PVE gameplay while i drool on myself.

Dr DogNov 30, 20184 votes

i dont think ive seen anyone make that argument, if they have thats not at all why adcs are bad rn and it isnt true to begin with, adcs are shit because of itemization not base stats

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aprgnraW,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-30T17:54:17.625+0000)

i dont think ive seen anyone make that argument, if they have thats not at all why adcs are bad rn and it isnt true to begin with, adcs are shit because of itemization not base stats

Every ADC on this board says their base stats were gutted in 8.11. Even Riot says ADC were nerfed by this originally. I guess i'm just a dumb gold jungler that doesn't understand how these were nerfs though. Not a big brained ADC FeelsBadMan

Dr DogNov 30, 20182 votes

the only base stat changes in 8.11 were minus 4 base attack dmg on adcs which was a trade for better ad growth evening at level 9, 8.11 did ruin adcs but via item changes not stats

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aprgnraW,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-30T18:06:48.791+0000)

the only base stat changes in 8.11 were minus 4 base attack dmg on adcs which was a trade for better ad growth evening at level 9, 8.11 did ruin adcs but via item changes not stats

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-811-notes

For example Ashe ATTACK DAMAGE 65 ⇒ 61 ATTACK DAMAGE GROWTH 2.26 ⇒ 2.96 ARMOR 31 ⇒ 26 HEALTH 527.72 ⇒ 539 HEALTH GROWTH 79 ⇒ 85 HEALTH REGEN 1.1 ⇒ 0.7

They have all already come in here and downvoted my thread so nobody can read it also OmegaNitro has come in here with his big brain to explain why the -5 armor for +HP was a nerf.

Dr DogNov 30, 20185 votes

its downvoted because people are getting tired of the "adcs arent bad rn" circlejerk posts from people that dont even play the role, adcs are shit because of itemization its just common knowledge at this point for anyone with any sort of experience with the role

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aprgnraW,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-30T18:17:42.140+0000)

its downvoted because people are getting tired of the "adcs arent bad rn" circlejerk posts from people that dont even play the role, adcs are shit because of itemization its just common knowledge at this point for anyone with any sort of experience with the role

It's weird because it's just factually information, i didn't know factually information was a circlejerking. Thanks for explaining it to me. I definitely understand how poor ADC itemization is right now using it on Graves when i play him. It's really bad and it's part of the reason Graves is a really weak champ ATM. Thanks for explaining again

Dr DogNov 30, 20184 votes

ya graves the best example, yknow the jger thats burst based with very open build options and doesnt get an infinity edge

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aprgnraW,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-30T18:26:00.303+0000)

ya graves the best example, yknow the jger thats burst based with very open build options and doesnt get an infinity edge

Yeah i never build Stormrazor or PD on him because both those items are shit. I always go the duskblade cleaver build because assassins are OP.

Dr DogNov 30, 20183 votes

theres honestly no helping you if you cant wrap your head around why graves is a awful example to bring up, for one he isnt a bot laner he is a jger whos kit has a lot of mobility burst durability and kite, graves is a skirmisher with a lot of tools in his kit geared toward his low range and very high dmg playstyle including a much stronger base kit and more importantly his defensive options, graves gets stormrazor because it works extremely well with his kit, along with the dmg reduction from pd its attack speed and its crit it gives his autos a faster reload and aa which lowers his e cd by 2 secs each auto and that e gives him another auto along with giving him tank stats and a dash he also has a red smite lowering dmg against him even more

Dr DogNov 30, 20183 votes

hell you if you wanted to take a adc that doesnt go bot as an example you shoulda at least opted for kindred, tho it can still obviously be argued against be it would still be a much better example than graves

saltranNov 30, 20183 votes

Graves is an adc, sure, totally a classic adc.

Cant wait for the Jng nerfs, gonna bu fun for sure.

JackMcSnipeyzNov 30, 20182 votes

i play him ADC, #notallgraves

OmegaNITRONov 30, 20185 votes

You're welcome.

Now try to wrap your head around this concept:

Early Game Nerf =/= Overall Nerf.

Once you have that one down, try this one:

Health Regen is more important for early game sustain than max health. Health Regen nerfs hurt early game.

If you make it past those two, here's the big one:

Weaker Early Game + Worse Crit Itemization + Games ending faster = Crit ADCs are weak overall.

Congrats, if you made it this far you now understand why people say ADCs have been gutted.

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're welcome.

Now try to wrap your head around this concept:

Early Game Nerf =/= Overall Nerf.

WHICH IS PART OF THE POINT. ADC BASE STATS WERE FACTUALLY NOT NERFED. IF THEY WERE PEOPLE WOULDN'T TAKE HP OVER ARMOR IN RUNES.

PEOPLE SAY ADCs HAVE BEEN GUTTED BECAUSE THE ROLE IS FILLED WITH SHEEP THAT WILL PARROT ANYTHING QT,T1, DL ect and other high elo ADCs say. When they say -4 armor for 16-118 HP is a nerf people will agree. Then they will turn around and take 15-90 HP runes over 5 armor disproving the that the previous was a nerf. The role was buffed in base stats i would agree that crit was nerfed even straight up nerfed even gutted in 8.11 but since then all the changes to crit outside of IE(old IE was super busted and shouldn't come back) have been reverted, while all the buffs to ADC itemization like the new blatantly OP item called stormrazor and the lowering of BoRTK price and BT have stayed. ADCs aren't weak at all. Bot lane isn't the best role in the game right now Mid and Top are better but this has nothing to do with ADC being weak and everything to do with MID and top having access to blatantly OP picks. The other bad part about ADC right now is enchanter supports and tanks are very weak now and both of those champ types being absent from the meta is a bad for ADC since those are the classes that Protect and CC things for the ADC.

OmegaNITRONov 30, 20182 votes

They were nerfed EARLY GAME, which is what people are TALKING ABOUT when they say the stats were gutted.

Not at LVL 18, when we have a Bloodthirster and are grouped as 5 and we have +118 max HP, but as the LVL 1 Jinx that has a whopping +16 Health that regens almost half as fast as it used to and takes more damage from minions, Zed and Yasuo while doing LESS damage to them.

And the reason we don't really care about the fact that by 6 item LVL 18 our stats are better is because of how much HARDER it is to ACTUALLY GET THERE.

Taking 15-90 HP over 5 armor doesn't disprove anything, because nobody is saying that the late game stats aren't more valuable, just that they aren't there when WE FUCKING NEED THEM MOST.

And the idea we should take the armor instead is stupid, cause if I pick a crit ADC I'm already throwing my early game away due to the COMBINATION of early game nerfs, so it makes no sense to sacrifice the more overall valuable rune.

Say ADCs aren't weak all you want, YOU'RE WRONG. YOU DON'T PLAY THE ROLE. And while QT, T1, DL, Hashinshin, Riot, whatever may have their own biases and are not right about everything, It's pretty likely they understand the game better than the hardstuck G5 JUNGLER.

Just like I'm pretty confident as the G5 Crit ADC main that I understand my main role better than you do, so I invite you to PLAY ADC YOURSELF and find out just how "OP" they are.

And if you think Stormrazor is OP on Jinx, wait til you see it on Wukong, or Rengar, or Graves. BoRK? If you think crit ADCs are the only or even main ones that pick up that item Lucian, Ezreal and a host of non ADC champs missed the memo.

At some point you should just accept when you DON'T know what you're talking about.

ParoeNov 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

snip

A gutting is sion losing 500 base HP. A gutting is Sejuani losing her non-ultimate CC. A gutting is your items having an average combine cost of over 1000g.

-4 AD for +10AD in scaling is a net buff. -60 HP for +100HP in scaling is a net buff.

Do not confuse reallocation of power as a raw nerf; When reallocations of power happen the players need to adapt. Now, before towers were super unsafe and could not protect you from a clown fiesta. The early game nerfs mattered somewhat - but now that towers are threats (thank gosh, lets give them another slight buff so they get bonus attack speed when allied champions are nearby!) all of those "ADCS ARE BAD EARLY BECAUSE VULNERABLE" complaints and null and void.

Also, if marksmen mains really couldnt adapt - and they did, they just dont like it because they feel weaker and refuse anything other than being able to out burst a dedicated burst mage with 415MS from 550 range - they should have changed their playstyles. It took a really long time, but thats what we see now; Marksmen meta has shifted into highly mobile lane bullies who are hard to gank due to being able to run away easily (or put out dissuading levels of damage)/

OtterlyLostNov 30, 20185 votes

Not quite true. They took armor and health regen as well. I'm just failing to understand what the base stat nerfs have to do with with rune stats that every champ in the game has access to.

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not quite true. They took armor and health regen as well. I'm just failing to understand what the base stat nerfs have to do with with rune stats that every champ in the game has access to.

I mean it's weird ADCs can effectively revert the armor nerf by taking the armor rune over the HP rune. Yet they all choose to nerf themselves even further by taking the HP rune over the armor one. I mean my original thought was this is blatant proof that ever ADC would rather take HP over armor and that losing armor to gain HP wasn't a nerf but it was a buff. But then people explained it that MR is also worse then HP so that means it's a nerf. My small jungler brain is thankful for that

OtterlyLostNov 30, 20185 votes

The armor nerf in 8.11 was a nerf. I dont understand how runes being added at the end of the season, approximately 20 patches after the nerf came through, suddenly changes it from not a nerf. Its still a nerf because they would have had more Armor had it not been taken away in 8.11.

Can other roles not also take AD? Do ADCs not also take AD? So wouldn't this overall just be a net neutral with no change, meaning ADCs are still nerfed regardless of whether they take armor or not?

Like the only factually correct thing you've said is that you're gold, a jungler, and have a small brain, for which I'm very sorry.

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The armor nerf in 8.11 was a nerf. I dont understand how runes being added at the end of the season, approximately 20 patches after the nerf came through, suddenly changes it from not a nerf. Its still a nerf because they would have had more Armor had it not been taken away in 8.11.

Can other roles not also take AD? Do ADCs not also take AD? So wouldn't this overall just be a net neutral with no change, meaning ADCs are still nerfed regardless of whether they take armor or not?

Like the only factually correct thing you've said is that you're gold, a jungler, and have a small brain, for which I'm very sorry.

-4 armor for 16-118 HP = nerf -5 armor for 15-90 HP = correct rune choice 4 Armor is worth more then 16-118 HP 5 Armor is worth less then 15-90 HP

ADC mains with the big brains teaching me math an logic. Thanks friend.

Dr DogNov 30, 20183 votes

ya i just saw, but it doesnt have anything to do with current runes and my point of that not being a big contribution to adcs becoming awful still holds true

Moody PNov 30, 201810 votes

because then you don't have armor against their marksman. HP is universal and since vs any non-pyke lane you'll be taking mixed damage, the HP will be best for you. It also gets more effective when paired with lifesteal and healing from supports.

i'm a braindead

hey, you said it, not me

Irelia BotNov 30, 20183 votes

That only reinforces the things ADCs lie about though.

OmegaNITRONov 30, 20185 votes

If you think it's a lie, play the role yourself and prove everybody wrong, since the solo laners/junglers obviously know how strong the ADCs are better than the ADC mains.

saltranNov 30, 20182 votes

Which non Pyke supp has physical dmg ?

Now I'm curious

Irelia BotNov 30, 20182 votes

They lost 5 armor for 6 to 108 Health and are upset about it while stats show that 15-90 is better than 5 armor.

Shit ADCs lie about.

OmegaNITRONov 30, 20182 votes

Meh, Thresh I guess.

OmegaNITRONov 30, 20187 votes

Sure, but first explain what one thing has to do with the other.

Do ADCs get to take 2 runes in the bottom slot where everyone else gets 1? No? Then what's your point?

Are you suggesting that trading 5 armor for 6 HP at level 1 is NOT an early game survivability nerf (even though Riot explicitly said it was... and basic math makes that obvious)?

How does pointing out the best overall rune choice in that row hold any relevance to the fact that early game base stats were nerfed for ADCs?

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sure, but first explain what one thing has to do with the other.

Do ADCs get to take 2 runes in the bottom slot where everyone else gets 1? No? Then what's your point?

Are you suggesting that trading 5 armor for 6 HP at level 1 is NOT an early game survivability nerf (even though Riot explicitly said it was... and basic math makes that obvious)?

How does pointing out the best overall rune choice in that row hold any relevance to the fact that early game base stats were nerfed for ADCs?

Yeah like i said man my small jungler brain just doesn't understand this. I mean I guess 5 armor for 6 hp is a early game nerf. So obvious that's why all ADC mains now take the 5 armor and over the 15-90 HP. Thanks for explaining it too me xD. This was very helpful

OmegaNITRONov 30, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Yeah like i said man my small jungler brain just doesn't understand this. I mean I guess 5 armor for 6 hp is a early game nerf. So obvious that's why all ADC mains now take the 5 armor and over the 15-90 HP. Thanks for explaining it too me xD. This was very helpful

We take 15-90 HP over 5 armor because in most games we are vs a mixed damage profile and the health is survivability against all champs instead of just AD champs.

So we could trade 15-90 health to undo that early game defense nerf... but then we don't have the extra health that everyone else gets to take.

As for base AD... Sure, scaling AD is better later into the game. But the problem is that games end before we scale, so how does this help that problem?

(Hint: It doesn't)

JackMcSnipeyzNov 30, 20186 votes

-#ADCFakeNews -#ThingsADCsLieAboutForBuffs

These are the kind of people who think Riot should listen to the Boards when balancing their game SMH

RexxieeNov 30, 20186 votes

I did not knew that the last row of the rune stats were exclusive to adcs! No other class of champison can take them!

Wtf is this thread?

afugiorgsNov 30, 20183 votes

These arguments are hard for me to follow. I understand what the OP is saying, but some of the arguments don't make sense. I believe the point is that since losing the armor for health was a bad thing in 8.11, so it make sense that they should take armor over health to mitigate that. But they take health instead, which shouldn't be as good, since the armor was so important then. Also the mixed damage argument doesn't make sense to me because if health is better for mixed damage, then wouldn't getting the more health and losing some armor be good for that? At this point I am honestly confused.

OmegaNITRONov 30, 20183 votes

You don't start the game at level 18. The base stat nerf in 8.11 was a nerf to ADCs early game sustain, damage, and survivability in exchange for more health and AD late game.

Seems fine in theory, but in ADDITION to that, crit items were changed to spike later and became more expensive.

This means it takes longer for ADCs to become strong, and early game it's much easier to push them out of lane. So it's harder for ADCs to win early - mid game. Following so far?

Now, add onto this the fact that OTHER changes to the game made games start ending FASTER on average. So ADCs traded early game power for a late game that NEVER COMES.

That is the problem.

You can't just cherry pick ONE change and then say "Oh ADCs are fine because 90 health is more valuable than 5 armor". 90 health may be, but 15 health isn't. And if I pick a crit ADC I'm not playing for early game anyway, because I CAN'T. So mitigating the weakness isn't worth sacrificing the more valuable stat that everyone else gets to take.

FrozenFrostFyreNov 30, 20182 votes

Because flat armor early is way better than flat hp especially bad when you are trading 5 armor for 6hp. And now you are talking about getting 15 hp lvl 1 compared to 6. More than double.

Are you trying to say ADC isn't the worst role in the game right now? Because the stat Nerf was only a small part of it. Adc's in general have much lower stats than anyone else in the game. Lower attackspped lower movementspeed lower base ad lower hp. Etc. So nerfing what little stats we already have hurts. And trading 5 armor for 6 hp is unmistakably a Nerf any compitant player should be able to see it.

On top of that item nerfs combined with games getting much shorter make adc's worthless. As an ADC main I rather play brand, Swain, Vlad, even anivia botlane over any ADC. With Mana costs being so low spells are very spamable and you only need to hit one cc ability for your support mage to also hit thier cc or vise versa and boom with ignite can 100-0 any adc.

BestPudgeNANov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because flat armor early is way better than flat hp especially bad when you are trading 5 armor for 6hp. And now you are talking about getting 15 hp lvl 1 compared to 6. More than double.

Jinx got 16 Hp at level 1 and only -4 armor and 6hp per level. You would think if 16-118 < 4 armor that 15-90 HP would be < 5 armor. But all the data says and all the players pick 15-90 HP > 5 Armor

Truly strange

OmegaNITRONov 30, 20183 votes

It's like you don't even read the whole comment before you reply, lol

Rock MDNov 30, 20181 votes

It was a nerf because you're losing early presence. You lose 5 armor and you don't really get the full compensation until a couple levels in making your early significantly weaker.

Most good late-game champions are more impacted by early game changes, because if you're a Kog'Maw dealing less damage in the late-game compared to previous iterations of kog (a late game nerf), it doesn't matter. You're still Kog and will have more DPS than 90% of the roster once you get to that late-game.

This is applied to base AD for all ADCs. You're losing presence and kill pressure. In return you get a stronger late-game w/ the scaling AD and hp but if you were already at the top buffs like that aren't super impactful.

As for why the HP rune gets picked, you're in a high mixed damage environment. Neither armor nor MR is going to be super helpful.