These VI nerfs are a joke

BestPudgeNA·Mar 5, 2019·27 votes·12,833 views

Can someone explain it to me?

Riot do you guys honestly believe these changes are buffs? Have any of you actually played her in the past year?

These changes make her clear slower not faster, the Q change doesn't make up for the amount of AD Ratios lost on her Q and E. Then on top of that losing clear speed she also loses .9 total AD ratio on a level 6 gank and if that wasn't enough she can gank with R less often because of the CD nerf.

The "positive" changes to her ultimate still leave her as a weak teamfighter, but the cooldown increase significantly nerfs her ability to gank. The other "positive" change is a meme buff to the later ranks of her W which she will still max last, which combined with the nerfs to her base stats end up being a net nerf for most of the game.

Why are you being so cautious with a champ that been irrelevant for over a full damn season can't just get buffs instead of "changes" that come along with nerfs.

How about just giving her some buffs and if she turns out to be too strong nerf her on 9.6 or 9.7

90 Comments

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 6, 20196 votes

They are definitely buffs, to her survivability and early clear in particular. her burst damage will be a little lower but she'll be able to stay in fights longer and deal more damage too.

give it a few days and you'll probably realize how wrong you were

BestPudgeNAMar 6, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=EROTIC RAID BOSS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJKZT4fY,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-03-06T00:13:58.982+0000)

They are definitely buffs, to her survivability and early clear in particular. her burst damage will be a little lower but she'll be able to stay in fights longer and deal more damage too.

give it a few days and you'll probably realize how wrong you were

I mean i've played VI before and her clear health is fine. Losing burst damage is a massive nerf and she is pretty much looking to press R on cooldown in the mid game too so those nerfs are huge also.

The only Challenger VI player in all the major regions seems to agree with me based off his tweet "Super Metroid ‏ @supermetroidlol

@RiotAugust these changes are bad and you should feel bad"

The EcdysiastMar 6, 20194 votes

Putting quotes around the word positive, lying about what's actually being done, and being oblivious doesn't make you right...

AetherArisingMar 6, 20193 votes

Realizing that she loses .30 AD ratio on one spell, .20 on another, pitiful buffs (25-50 extra damage on later ult ranks, a little more AS on her max W) doesnt compensate for losing .5 attackspeed per level growth, nerfing her Q largely nerfs her clear and fights, and essentially she becomes “Get fed pre-6 or you will never be relevant for the entire game” because of increasing nerfs to her power across the game the later you get

I’m on a couple hundred Vi games here, over 200k mastery7, i can see that this will be SHIT for her

The EcdysiastMar 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Realizing that she loses .30 AD ratio on one spell, .20 on another, pitiful buffs (25-50 extra damage on later ult ranks, a little more AS on her max W) doesnt compensate for losing .5 attackspeed per level growth, nerfing her Q largely nerfs her clear and fights, and essentially she becomes “Get fed pre-6 or you will never be relevant for the entire game” because of increasing nerfs to her power across the game the later you get

I’m on a couple hundred Vi games here, over 200k mastery7, i can see that this will be SHIT for her

item 3124

ArtumisPrimeMar 6, 20192 votes

[deleted]

The EcdysiastMar 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Just how stupid are you?

Not sure what ground you have to stand on to call me stupid when you can't tell why the changes are good after supposedly having 200k mastery on Vi buddy.

ArtumisPrimeMar 6, 20193 votes

[deleted]

Rathar DashingMar 6, 20191 votes

She stacks it instantly with HoB, one of her most picked keystones. One combo of Q-AA-E-AA-AA will proc it right away, with the last AA applying on-hit effects twice, for a total of 2 W procs. She can then AA-E again for another proc, if she chooses.

Also, a jungler standing still and attacking for 4 seconds? Gee, that never happens anywhere, especially not at dragon/baron pit.

AetherArisingMar 6, 20191 votes

uh, rageblade only stacks on autos. That makes for 4 autos because Q doesnt effect it.

you'd still need 2 more autos to even begin getting effectiveness. You're losing the first half of the trade in order to buy an item for the last half

on vi, currently, you usually build Warrior > Ghostblade (optionally IMO but the #1 vi builds it all the time), Triforce, Steraks, Tank items

Notice that only 1 of those gives attackspeed, and thats because her W is shit. Her W is to reduce the armor so you can continue quickly bursting before dipping out.

mtothe6thpowerMar 6, 20192 votes

Rageblade auto caps after 3 autos when used by melee champs, afaik.

I can't comment on the rest of the post given that I'm not a Vi main.

Rathar DashingMar 7, 20191 votes

Vi is melee, she stacks it with 3 auto attacks. It gets stacked in time for her 4th auto to apply effect twice.

Sure, in a more traditional tanky build you'd not want to get it, but you could easily substitute Ghostblade for it, or a tank item. Her W now reducing her passive CD is even more reason to pick up rageblade.

Also, Vi isn't supposed to be "dipping out" she's not an assassin, she's meant to be a diver. She's supposed to jump in, deal damage, and then keep dealing damage until she or her targets are all dead. Every single stat rageblade gives, aside from AP and Mpen is useful on her, especially when jungling for the constant passive uptime.

ArtumisPrimeMar 7, 20191 votes

Apparently you know something that pros/challengers don't. Because no one is building Rageblade on her at the top level. If she "stacks it instantly" as you claim with HoB, everyone would build it. It would be crazy strong....but no one does. Why, in your opinion, is that?

Rathar DashingMar 7, 20191 votes

Her change was just released, it might take some time for people to pick it up. It's probably still somewhat sub optimal, but it's by no means a bad item to pick up. Also, she does stack it instantly, there's no argument about that, so it must be because it doesn't fit with anyone else's build, because they go for her more traditional diver build.

Edit: I checked the master level, Rageblade has a 0.62% pickrate, but a 75% winrate. Definitely something to keep an eye on, even if it turns out to be weaker later.

ArtumisPrimeMar 7, 20191 votes

Where did you get that information? Because u.gg and probuilds both suggest no one builds it.

She can stack it pretty close to instantly, you're not necessarily wrong. She AA -> E AA -> E AA = fully stacked and the next AA will benefit from it. However, that's where it kind of falls apart. You've likely already used your Q or R to get onto the target. You might have the other available to stick to them a little, but you're so damn squishy at that point.

If you can live for 2s because burst meta coupled with no, or fewer, defensive stats, and it takes you 1s to get 4 AAs off, then you have 1s to utilize that. At that point, assuming no other AS items or runes, even assuming level 18 values, she would have 1.55848 AS (0.644 base x (1+ ( 0.34 base + 0.6 W + 0.48 rageblade )) Which means she wouldn't even get 2 more AAs off (1.5 per second)

I think it's one of those things that sounds good, but when you really analyze the numbers doesn't even look good on paper...and will be even worse in practice, in most situations. Now, if you can live and keep dealing damage, then sure. It could work. But, that is true about pretty much anything in this game.

Rathar DashingMar 7, 20191 votes

I was using Lolalytics. Her combo with HoB gets her 4 auto attacks right away with her engage, and it only uses one of her E attacks, at which point she can still use more. There's no reason she has to be more squishy, you can keep the rest of your tankier items on and just benefit from her shields much more often.

She can live much longer now due to her new shield, and with her E being up often she can reset it easily enough. It takes you much less than 1 second to get 4 AAs off with HoB.

Vi's most picked primary shard is the attack speed one, and you forgot about the base 25% attack speed rageblade gives. Plugging those in, we end up with 1.784 attack speed, along with an AA reset on an 8-6ish second cooldown. Plus, she has plenty of room to pick up Trinity force for another 40% attack speed, and there's often an ally spreading around the Ardent love. I don't see how she only has 1 second to utilize this, she can continue to AA her target for quite some time after landing assuming she has other ways of sticking (red buff, blue smite, phage etc.).

When you analyze the numbers it looks completely viable, then when you use it it turns out to be effective in some ways and lacking in others, as with any item or build. The item boosts her DPS against tougher enemies by quite a good amount, even just from the 15% armor pen and 73% attack speed, but what it really boosts your DPS against is jungle camps. Rageblade also boosts the amount of times you can proc your shield while diving, which is useful for longer fights. I'm not saying this item is a 100% must pick on Vi, again, but it's definitely worth considering especially now with her new passive.

The EcdysiastMar 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Evidently the answer to the question "just how stupid are you?" is "incredibly." I wasn't the one who claimed any Vi mastery. I don't even play the champion...but to assume that Vi might buy Rageblade is a ridiculous concept and a horrible idea that will never come to pass.

She has no way to stack it outside of standing on a target for 4s. This shit will never happen.

Ah, my bad. I assumed you might be the one who had a leg to stand on. Way to go, you even cut that leg off.

It's obvious you don't pay the champion when you don't even know she has two auto-attack resets. "Only way."

ArtumisPrimeMar 7, 20193 votes

Do you not know how to build any of the champs you don't play? Do you not know how they work on at least a basic level?

I have played Vi, but don't play her consistently. This means I don't know exactly the range of her Q at every level of charge. It does NOT mean that I don't know how she works or how to build her.

Also, according to Probuilds, none of the Vi's have build Rageblade...HoB or not. So, for someone who claims to know Vi, why are the people better at her than you not building this item I wonder? Do challenger players not know how she works?

The EcdysiastMar 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Do you not know how to build any of the champs you don't play? Do you not know how they work on at least a basic level?

I have played Vi, but don't play her consistently. This means I don't know exactly the range of her Q at every level of charge. It does NOT mean that I don't know how she works or how to build her.

Also, according to Probuilds, none of the Vi's have build Rageblade...HoB or not. So, for someone who claims to know Vi, why are the people better at her than you not building this item I wonder? Do challenger players not know how she works?

I do play her. Go look at my reply to the other person if you want to see the actual math that proves you wrong.

ArtumisPrimeMar 16, 20192 votes

So how about that Rageblade VI, hey? Oh wait.

The EcdysiastMar 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So how about that Rageblade VI, hey? Oh wait.

I only said it would become an option.

But hey, look, Vi's performance is UP. Wow. It's almost like you never knew what you were talking about.

ArtumisPrimeMar 17, 20191 votes

I never said that Vi's performance would go down. My only point is that Rageblade is a stupid item on her and no one is building it.

The EcdysiastMar 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I never said that Vi's performance would go down. My only point is that Rageblade is a stupid item on her and no one is building it.

Just because people aren't buying it doesn't mean it hasn't become a better option than it was before.
Uhuh, sure buddy. So nerf means "performance up" now, right.

ArtumisPrimeMar 17, 20191 votes

If people aren't building it, then it's still a useless item. 0 is not greater than 0.

I never said it was a nerf.

Rathar DashingMar 6, 20191 votes

Shhh don't tell people my secret Vi build

The EcdysiastMar 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Realizing that she loses .30 AD ratio on one spell, .20 on another, pitiful buffs (25-50 extra damage on later ult ranks, a little more AS on her max W) doesnt compensate for losing .5 attackspeed per level growth, nerfing her Q largely nerfs her clear and fights, and essentially she becomes “Get fed pre-6 or you will never be relevant for the entire game” because of increasing nerfs to her power across the game the later you get

I’m on a couple hundred Vi games here, over 200k mastery7, i can see that this will be SHIT for her

Ah, sorry about my reply before. I'm back and with more information to adequately address your argument.

First, both the spells having their ratios nerfed scale Bonus AD, which means that even at level 18 with a full build item 1400 item 3078 item 3053 item 3026 item 3742 item 3047 which for Vi only includes 192 total bonus AD, the spells lost only 58 and 38 damage, respectively.

Which in actuality, because the only lethality she has is Sudden Impact, was a loss of only 36 and 24 damage against the enemy with the lowest base armor in the game at level 18. Prior to that point though, the amount lost is less and less depending on both your level (with Sterak's) and your point in the build.

Definitely not enough to consider it a huge nerf. Especially, and most importantly, considering the fact it now no longer deals reduced damage to non-champions, which means a 41 damage increase at max charge rank 1, and the 2 damage she "lost" from scaling is actually completely negated by that buff as well. This may in fact turn out to be way too strong of a buff to her clear speed, especially if she continues to focus Q.

You also act like losing 0.5% AS per level outweighs the 2.5/5/7.5/10% buff to her W, which even at level 18 the passive growth lost is only 8.5% total, compared to the 10% buff. So that point is also wrong, especially seeing as the change makes it seem they want people to go back to focusing the W second.

You're on a couple hundred Vi games, but that says nothing about the time you bothered to take in to actually look at the numbers.

Rathar DashingMar 6, 20191 votes

You're not factoring in bonus AD from runes and potential infernal drakes, which would give 5.4 per AD shard, up to 18 from eyeball collection, 5/14/28 etc from GS, and then a good 10% of her total AD after that (for another +32 approx). Plus things like Janna E. Even with this though, her burst damage is what should be getting hit, and her clear speed is still being increased by the damage she gets to monsters now. She also got a tonne of tankiness put into her, getting +5% max health per shield, and being able to use said shield about 2-5 seconds faster than before.

The EcdysiastMar 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJKZT4fY,comment-id=0003000000020000,timestamp=2019-03-06T16:43:08.119+0000)

You're not factoring in bonus AD from runes and potential infernal drakes, which would give 5.4 per AD shard, up to 18 from eyeball collection, 5/14/28 etc from GS, and then a good 10% of her total AD after that (for another +32 approx). Plus things like Janna E. Even with this though, her burst damage is what should be getting hit, and her clear speed is still being increased by the damage she gets to monsters now. She also got a tonne of tankiness put into her, getting +5% max health per shield, and being able to use said shield about 2-5 seconds faster than before.

Yeah, that's my bad. When talking about the Q in another comment I did factor in both the 12 AD from runes and the lethality from SI.

But I intentionally did not include eyeball collection, gathering storm, or even more harshly conditional things like having a Janna or randomly getting 3 infernals because those things are not gauranteed. (except GS, but generally people don't take that even on melee hypercarries)

sho ayaneMar 6, 20193 votes

i think super metroid said these changes were buffs to vi.....

(I think?)

(I was wrong), might have been thinking of some different pbe changes for vi or something

BestPudgeNAMar 6, 20198 votes

[{quoted}](name=sho ayane,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJKZT4fY,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-03-06T00:23:42.965+0000)

i think super metroid said these changes were buffs to vi.....

(I think?)

Doesn't seem like it based off twitter.

"Super Metroid ‏ @supermetroidlol

@RiotAugust these changes are bad and you should feel bad"

https://i.imgur.com/PBkeJt7.png

sho ayaneMar 6, 20193 votes

ah sorry :(

MysticFlameHazeMar 6, 20193 votes

You dont level W last, vi gets more damage off her W than the Q gives Vi with lvl 5 Q against dummy is 203 damage with warrior Vi with lvl 5 W against dummy is 659 with warrior Vi with lvl 5 E against dummy is 260 total with warrior Vi is currently the 3rd best jungler

AetherArisingMar 6, 201919 votes

Dummies have 9999 health. Vi does max%health damage with W This is a fucking meme.

Vi is currently a teir 4 champ and the 28th best jungler according to op.gg

DurzakaMar 6, 20197 votes

First, W does % health damage, testing against a dummy is super fucking misleading.

Second, its not about the total damage. leveling Q increases the damage AND drastically decreases the cooldown. The exact same can be said for E. More uses of Q and E > more damage from W.

W will continue to be maxed last in every situation.

Vi is currently sitting at a 50.56% win rate and 1.7% pick rate. Definitely not even remotely close to 3rd best jungler.

Rathar DashingMar 6, 20192 votes

Most times I see Vi max W second, going QWE. Ranking up E doesn't give as much damage as ranking up W, and the extra attack speed for clearing certain camps (especially dragons) is very nice. Just for numbers sake, a rank in E is +20 damage, while a rank in W is +1.5% max HP per 3 attacks. At 1333 HP on a single enemy, one combo will deal the same amount of damage, and only gets stronger the more HP they have. A rank in W also increases the mana cost by 6, which isn't that great.

HilsunMar 6, 20195 votes

You don't level E second for the bonus damage, you do it for the significantly reduced cooldown so you can auto-reset more often. It's what I've been doing every game with her for years. The only time I W max second is when I'm up against a team of 2-3 tanks and prefer the bonus %hp sustained damage.

Rathar DashingMar 6, 20191 votes

True, but if you're more worried about burst damage then you only really need to have 1-2 E's in a fight. With the attack speed granted by ranking W I can manage my E charges intelligently between levels 10-15 ish.

Maybe it's just because I use Rageblade but I find the consistent damage output from ranking W more valuable than ranking E. When I play Vi more traditionally, I usually do max E second for Triforce procs.

DurzakaMar 6, 20193 votes

Maybe it's just because I use Rageblade

Well there is your problem. Literally no competent Vi is building that. idk what youre even doing on Vi, but its not normal or what most Vi players consider effective.

Rathar DashingMar 7, 20191 votes

I have an on-hit build with Vi that I find very fun to use, and it kills things pretty darned fast. I'm actually probably going to go back to the W max last, since her passive is now up more than her E for me, but it's gonna feel awkward not having as much early AS.

Edit: turns out the Master+ tier is building this item, albeit at a lower pickrate (0.62%). However, the ones that build it show a 75% winrate with it.

DurzakaMar 7, 20191 votes

Pick rates and win rates like that show one thing. its a joke item/build bought when the game has already been dominated.

Rathar DashingMar 7, 20191 votes

I still think it's a valid item on her, but the W max probably isn't the best (even though in most ELOs it has roughly the same winrate as QWE/QEW)

DurzakaMar 6, 20193 votes

Again, we arent talking about raw damage.

The power of maxing E (and also Q) is the drastically reduced cooldown.

W might deal more damage on paper, but E is going to help A LOT more overall. its an AA reset, it procs your W faster, and a lower cooldown means more procs of W faster.

Literally no one who plays a decent amount of Vi will max her W second, ever.

Iota ThetaMar 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Can someone explain it to me?

Where to start, hmm..

Riot do you guys honestly believe these changes are buffs? Have any of you actually played her in the past year?

I can’t answer if they’ve played her, but they are buffs to what she’s supposed to be: a diver. There may be ratio nerfs, but it’s due to positive changes elsewhere.

These changes make her clear slower not faster, the Q change doesn't make up for the amount of AD Ratios lost on her Q and E.

You sure about that? First clear she only has bonus AD from runes, so the ratio neef wouldn’t be felt. But her Q does now deal full damage to monsters, which would make taking out raptors better. So on first clear, rank one Q does the full 55 damage at the minimum damage mark, as opposed to dealing 13 less damage, or the full 110 at max charge. On E, she lost .05 total AD ratio, which, is about 3-4 damage first clear. I’d say that’s balanced out.

Then on top of that losing clear speed she also loses .9 total AD ratio on a level 6 gank and if that wasn't enough she can gank with R less often because of the CD nerf.

I can’t quite tell if you’re saying .9 total AD ratio, or total .9 AD ratio. Either way, you’re wrong. She lost .2 bonus AD on Q, and .01 Total AD on E, and .3 bonus AD on R, which is .5 bonus and .01 total. But the other factor is her R now deals fulls damage to all that are hit by it, which can mean a lot in AoE situations. She also knocks back passthroughs more.

As for the CD...it’s a 10 second increase. Yeah, it’ll slow her a bit, but the positive changes make it worthwhile in the long run.

The "positive" changes to her ultimate still leave her as a weak teamfighter, but the cooldown increase significantly nerfs her ability to gank. The other "positive" change is a meme buff to the later ranks of her W which she will still max last, which combined with the nerfs to her base stats end up being a net nerf for most of the game.

This makes me think you didn’t read all the notes. Her shield got stronger, allower her to stay in the fights and cause more damage, and its CD now goes down with W procs, encouraging her to stay in the fight longer. Her ult’s damage change is better in teamfights where she’s more likely to hit more than one target with it.

Why are you being so cautious with a champ that been irrelevant for over a full damn season can't just get buffs instead of "changes" that come along with nerfs.

Because last time they weren’t cautious, the boards went into a frenzy, most notable example lately is Vayne after her changes. As I said before, these changes should increase her more diver/fighter playstyle, more sustained fights, as opposed to a burstier assassin.

How about just giving her some buffs and if she turns out to be too strong nerf her on 9.6 or 9.7

Because that wouldn’t really do what they want to do. Most buffs would also buff her burst style that Riot wants to pull her away from. Maybe, try the changes out before going crazy?

KanzlerMar 6, 20192 votes

I think one issue is the crit on E. That seems like a needless allocation of power budget for a stat that isn't built on Vi.

Iota ThetaMar 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I think one issue is the crit on E. That seems like a needless allocation of power budget for a stat that isn't built on Vi.

That...is something for which I have no answer. I was just as perplexed when I saw it since she doesn’t build crit. I doubt she would sacrifice more important items for a 25-50% chance to crit her E, unless it’s URF or some cheese build. It’s about as valuable as Garen’s E critting...so, not valuable at all in regular play.

Rathar DashingMar 6, 20191 votes

I used to build Stormrazor on her back when it gave a guaranteed crit, felt pretty good in her one-shot builds with Duskblade. Now I can't really see her getting any crit at all, especially since the only thing that changed was the ability for her secondary targets to get hit by a crit every once in a while, assuming her E successfully does crit.

The EcdysiastMar 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZJKZT4fY,comment-id=0016000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-06T16:48:46.920+0000)

I used to build Stormrazor on her back when it gave a guaranteed crit, felt pretty good in her one-shot builds with Duskblade. Now I can't really see her getting any crit at all, especially since the only thing that changed was the ability for her secondary targets to get hit by a crit every once in a while, assuming her E successfully does crit.

Well, there is the option of going for a build sort of like what old GP built, with Trinity, Hydra and mostly crit afterwards. Though she could replace Ravenous with Titanic for added tankiness and even more AoE damage.

What these changes have done is really open up her buildpath, making her much more akin to other on-hit fighters in their variability.

Rathar DashingMar 7, 20191 votes

I actually love her on-hit build, with Rageblade+Bloodrazor+Bork, she kills tanks and dragons so fast it's insane. I haven't tried it yet, but before the change I was messing around with a full tank Vi, and I think this patch is strictly a buff for her since she built no bonus AD.

Sire HippingtonMar 6, 20192 votes

Well, the changes would be a buff IF sustained melee dps was a thing in LoL anymore cause the tankiness you could get from the passive changes are significant. Sadly, Vi doesn't have the stickiness to actually aply dps, and even if she could, damage is still so overtuned that she won't be able to do so for long despite the shield buffs. Right now, melees are only relevant if they can reliably gapclose and burst, or if they offer shit tons of (reliable)CC, and they nerfed her burst alot while increaseing the CD on her reliable CC + gapclose...

AetherArisingMar 6, 20191 votes

Agreed. Her ult, which is now significantly nerfed on single-target, is the one way to stick onto a champion when they try to escape. Imagine trying to hit someone 15 times in a row in 2019 lul.