Taliyah is not that bad of a champion
Yes she could use some buffs but shes op
Yes she could use some buffs but shes op
Eh, I will admit that I have not mastered her mechanics in the slightest. That said, I feel, based upon my limited experience playing with her, that her mechanics are clunky with respect to their reward from execution. By reward for execution, I mean the meaningful impact yielded from executing a play using her tool set.
Honestly, trying to play her requires tremendously more effort relative to other characters. Again, admittedly, I have not mastered her, so maybe I am missing something. Her damage, nonetheless, seems inordinately low and her mana usage disproportionately high.
Finally, it irks me that her passive requires one to be near a wall - for no apparent reason. Honestly, this passive should work irrespective to one's placement relative to the walls.
She is fine and I doubt if she needs nerf or buff.
I have played a lot of Taliyah before and after her change. I feel her power is fine but with her W rework she lost a lot of her uniqueness, and shifted from "simple micro, complicated macro" style that I loved to a more generic midlane mage kit power wise. I don't see a reason not to play her, but, sadly, I don't see a big enough reason to play new Taliyah over other mages either (other than nostalgia -- my ~50 or so games on her post-rework were in hopes that if I get used to the new W enough, she might again be my favorite champion.... old Taliyah felt amazing to me, new one is... OK, but meh).
I have played a lot of Taliyah before and after her change. I feel her power is fine but with her W rework she lost a lot of her uniqueness, and shifted from "simple micro, complicated macro" style that I loved to a more generic midlane mage kit power wise. I don't see a reason not to play her, but, sadly, I don't see a big enough reason to play new Taliyah over other mages either (other than nostalgia -- my ~50 or so games on her post-rework were in hopes that if I get used to the new W enough, she might again be my favorite champion.... old Taliyah felt amazing to me, new one is... OK, but meh).
To be honest, I only played her briefly when she first came out, and do not remember how I felt about her W. Was it really that much different, in terms of satisfaction, from the current iteration's vector casting? Also, why did they change the mechanics of the W? Based upon what I read, the spell, ostensibly, does the exact same thing in both versions, original and current. What was the motivation behind the change?
To be honest, I only played her briefly when she first came out, and do not remember how I felt about her W. Was it really that much different, in terms of satisfaction, from the current iteration's vector casting? Also, why did they change the mechanics of the W? Based upon what I read, the spell, ostensibly, does the exact same thing in both versions, original and current. What was the motivation behind the change?
This deserves its own post, but briefly:
1). W casting mechanics (assuming quick cast): Before: You press w, and after short delay knockup will happen, and you are locked out of casting other abilities for ~.55 seconds irrc. After first w press there was somewhat-clunky mechanics to input direction, but there is no rush as long as you finish your input in half a second. So she was not micro dependent, and power of her W did not depend on whether you can get input done .1 second faster. And there was range clamping -- if you try to cast it slightly out of range it'll cast at max range, which is usually what you want. After: You press w, move mouse, release w, then the timer for knockup starts. Slightly less clunky, but how good your w is greatly depends on how fast you can complete those motions (knockup target area is determined during first press, so your time to input commands adds to delay), so the usefulness of your w now depends on how fast you can input the command, every .01 second matters if targetting champions, so you feel very rushed AND Taliyah's power is more micro dependent. She already has very steep macro learning curve (which I enjoy) -- both her wall and her passive let you make macro plays, but can backfire badly if not done right (wall that does little good or messes up your team, and failed roams, respectively). So now her overall difficulty curve is higher (high macro AND not-low mico), so she had to be nerfed to balanced for LCS while she was OK power-wise in plat... but that's a smaller issue than how her new W feels compared to the old one.
2). W-E vs. E-W. Her E damages anyone knocked through the field it creates. So, using W knockup to knock someone through her E is a big part of her damage.
Before: If she wants to W people through E, due to lock up, she has to cast E BEFORE W. Which let her zone people -- her E was a big "don't stay near or you risk eating W and tons of damage" to the face sign, which gave it counterplay and was a great zoning tool that's easy to use -- and it's "threat" range was bigger than the E field itself, since you might be outside of E field, but if you eat a W, you'd be knocked through it. Or you could use W without E as a surprise knockup but without the extra damage.
After: You can cast E after W, effecitively creating a W->E damage combo which was not available before. To balance it, of course, the damage of getting knock through E had to be reduced. So now you are left with a middling damage combo, W->E, which is about same as power, but not as interesting, as lots of other have similar damage bursts. E does not zone as well, due to both lower damage, and it making less sense to cast E before W, as it telegraphs your potential W without adding to damage (you'd rather W->E if your W is not on cooldown). So, she lost zoning tool, and a big damage telegraphed threat, for a middling damage non-telegraphed combo, I found former much more interesting and rewarding than the latter... and more unque to taliyah as well.
Why it was changed: My guess is vocal complaints from people not liking her old W. It was clunky, yes, but something one could get used to. I think mechanically new W IS a little easier, but benefit for me pales in comparison to the two issues I outlined before.
What would I ideally see: -Knockup timer start the moment you press W. It is a huge deal, to make playing her feel less rushed, and less micro-intensive (she has plenty of difficulty curve in her macro). Range clumping would be great as well. The new vector casting I am a fan of IF it can be made compatible with this, it is a little easier than the old way of inputting W's direction. -W->E combo being impossible again and damage of getting knocked through E being correspondingly higher (whether through lockout on casting after W or another mechanics, I personally enjoyed the lockout, as it made playing her feel less rushed than other mages since you did not have to input commands as close together). This would give her back the zoning tool (E is now a big threat), while not raising her overall power. It would also make jungle Taliyah somewhat stronger, which is not her main play mode, but fits with her "always moving, always learning" theme very well, and I enjoyed playing her in the jungle occasionally in plat when comp/team would call for her skill set.
This deserves its own post, but briefly:
1). W casting mechanics (assuming quick cast): Before: You press w, and after short delay knockup will happen, and you are locked out of casting other abilities for ~.55 seconds irrc. After first w press there was somewhat-clunky mechanics to input direction, but there is no rush as long as you finish your input in half a second. So she was not micro dependent, and power of her W did not depend on whether you can get input done .1 second faster. And there was range clamping -- if you try to cast it slightly out of range it'll cast at max range, which is usually what you want. After: You press w, move mouse, release w, then the timer for knockup starts. Slightly less clunky, but how good your w is greatly depends on how fast you can complete those motions (knockup target area is determined during first press, so your time to input commands adds to delay), so the usefulness of your w now depends on how fast you can input the command, every .01 second matters if targetting champions, so you feel very rushed AND Taliyah's power is more micro dependent. She already has very steep macro learning curve (which I enjoy) -- both her wall and her passive let you make macro plays, but can backfire badly if not done right (wall that does little good or messes up your team, and failed roams, respectively). So now her overall difficulty curve is higher (high macro AND not-low mico), so she had to be nerfed to balanced for LCS while she was OK power-wise in plat... but that's a smaller issue than how her new W feels compared to the old one.
2). W-E vs. E-W. Her E damages anyone knocked through the field it creates. So, using W knockup to knock someone through her E is a big part of her damage.
Before: If she wants to W people through E, due to lock up, she has to cast E BEFORE W. Which let her zone people -- her E was a big "don't stay near or you risk eating W and tons of damage" to the face sign, which gave it counterplay and was a great zoning tool that's easy to use -- and it's "threat" range was bigger than the E field itself, since you might be outside of E field, but if you eat a W, you'd be knocked through it. Or you could use W without E as a surprise knockup but without the extra damage.
After: You can cast E after W, effecitively creating a W->E damage combo which was not available before. To balance it, of course, the damage of getting knock through E had to be reduced. So now you are left with a middling damage combo, W->E, which is about same as power, but not as interesting, as lots of other have similar damage bursts. E does not zone as well, due to both lower damage, and it making less sense to cast E before W, as it telegraphs your potential W without adding to damage (you'd rather W->E if your W is not on cooldown). So, she lost zoning tool, and a big damage telegraphed threat, for a middling damage non-telegraphed combo, I found former much more interesting and rewarding than the latter... and more unque to taliyah as well.
Why it was changed: My guess is vocal complaints from people not liking her old W. It was clunky, yes, but something one could get used to. I think mechanically new W IS a little easier, but benefit for me pales in comparison to the two issues I outlined before.
What would I ideally see: -Knockup timer start the moment you press W. It is a huge deal, to make playing her feel less rushed, and less micro-intensive (she has plenty of difficulty curve in her macro). Range clumping would be great as well. The new vector casting I am a fan of IF it can be made compatible with this, it is a little easier than the old way of inputting W's direction. -W->E combo being impossible again and damage of getting knocked through E being correspondingly higher (whether through lockout on casting after W or another mechanics, I personally enjoyed the lockout, as it made playing her feel less rushed than other mages since you did not have to input commands as close together). This would give her back the zoning tool (E is now a big threat), while not raising her overall power. It would also make jungle Taliyah somewhat stronger, which is not her main play mode, but fits with her "always moving, always learning" theme very well, and I enjoyed playing her in the jungle occasionally in plat when comp/team would call for her skill set.
Just understand the last part of your response, are you proposing a two-hit activation for w? First hit to set the trap, and second hit to input the vector direction?
Just understand the last part of your response, are you proposing a two-hit activation for w? First hit to set the trap, and second hit to input the vector direction?
The specifics can vary, as long as the timer on knockup starts when you first hit W. Old one had two activations, yes, first one to start casting second to input direction (hence somewhat clunky). If starting W's delay as soon as W is first pressed CAN be combined with the current vector casting, great, I prefer that. But if not, the old way (two activations one to stat casting, one to input directions) is much preferrable to the current one,
She can manage to work. That's different from being trashed after 6.14.
didn't she just get a buff on the pbe