So Riot will nerf Taliyah, but not Lee Sin?

Purpl3Jungl3·Dec 4, 2016·98 votes·5,593 views

6.20 patch notes, riot said this "A few patches ago, we saw Taliyah roaming too often and with too little setup. Since then, we’ve upped the cooldown on Taliyah’s ultimate and weakened her waveclear,** forcing her to work harder to leave lane.** With less time spent roaming she’s scrapping more often, and her trading is somewhat below the curve for mid lane. Her overall damage isn’t too far off from where it needs to be, but she has to pick her trades a bit too carefully right now."

WORKED GROUND DURATION 140 seconds ⇒ 120 seconds

But it all doesn't matter because riot buffed her Q reducing the Cooldown by 1 second. Not. -.-

The Last time Riot even looked at lee sin was in 6.21 i think, where Riot were fixing his bugs to polish him even more. Ridiculous. That's almost 2 months ago

122 Comments

IncognonymousDec 4, 201645 votes

Welcome to Riot games.

Over the course of the game's history, Lee has maintained possibly the highest playrate, usually something like 30%. A large playerbase tends to give a large amount of feedback, leading to intense assfrustration everytime Lee is meaningfully nerfed.

SaiannaDec 4, 20169 votes

leading to intense assfrustration everytime Lee is meaningfully nerfed.

You mean that ONE TIME like 3 years ago?

After that he only received either buffs or super small nerfs that wouldn't change anything

IncognonymousDec 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You mean that ONE TIME like 3 years ago?

After that he only received either buffs or super small nerfs that wouldn't change anything

That was what I was referencing.

Tik115Dec 5, 20162 votes

Don't forget they had a rework planned for him and scrapped it within a week

Meanwhile literally every other rework is pushed through regardless of feedback

JMoormannDec 4, 20163 votes

The problem is that he too fun to play. They could nerf him until he has a 40% win rate and he would still have one of the highest play rates, simply because his kit feels so good and smooth to play.

inplaneDec 4, 201629 votes

Riot does this all the time. They buffed Taliyah to the point where she can just spray the wave with 2 Qs and say goodbye to the enemy laner. They then proceed to nerf the spells she need to setup her roams in favor of the insane Q waveclear. After that, they nerf her waveclear without reverting the previous nerfs.

ModAcademy KaynDec 4, 201611 votes

That's because they buffed her too early.

inplaneDec 4, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fl2OhEgn,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-12-04T04:29:56.412+0000)

That's because they buffed her too early.

Pretty much. Barely any data was available at the time, so they just slapped a bunch of stats onto her and see how it went. Little to say, her playerbase just decreased drastically after patch 6.14 and down to almost nothing after patch 6.18.

Automated RivenDec 4, 20169 votes

the sad part is I loved her on release and begged not to have her buffed. and they did it anyway,.. and now I cant even play her anymore after the stupid vector casting

Trias000Dec 4, 20163 votes

What's wrong with vector casting?

An Undead bratDec 4, 20163 votes

It just feels worse after you got used to the previous casting. I still have a problem with it, but I admire I don't play her often... after those nerfs...

AstôlfoDec 4, 20167 votes

One, it's far easier to learn and braindead easy to do.

Two, it doesn't even fit the nature of Taliyah's W.

Three, Taliyah's W timing is EXTREMELY CRITICAL. Vector casting FORCES an INHERENT human delay on it. It does not start until you let go after dragging. The time it takes to do that is MASSIVE. The old casting would start the 1s countdown IMMEDIATELY on first click.

Four, it removes freedom of choice. Old casting meant you didn't have to pick a direction until the very last fraction of a second. New casting means you have to pick a direction and stick with it.

Five, vertical knockup cannot be done anymore.

Automated RivenDec 4, 20165 votes

vector casting in and of itself is not an issue. (I personally dont like it but I dont have a problem with it on the likes of rumble and victor and can even play victor rather well (last time i played him anyway like a year and a half ago)) but tahliyas w is not even remotely simular to victors E?? and rumbles ult. Its far more precise and its very very hard to judge where the ability is even going to go off with the indicator. Also the old W allowed you to wait as long as .5 seconds to decide where you were going to actually direct the enemy which actually allowed for you to completely change the outcome of that one ability. IE one time I was getting ganked and after I pressed the w to cast the ability I noticed and instead of thowing the enemy midlaner through my mine field I threw her away and evaded the gank. where as the direction is already locked in with vector casting. Also vector casting in essense adds like .25 seconds to the actual ability because of the added cast time taken to draw a line and on such a small ability like tahliyas w this change results in you casting the ability but the enemy randomly changed directions and narrowly dodged it when it would have hit had it casted instantly like it used to.

Can all these things be worked around and adapted too? yes, funtionally tahliyah is still a champion that has the potential to be good. I just dont enjoy playing her at all after the changes because she feels very clunky to me. I want riot to implement a change where the player can change the W cast to either double click as it used to be or vector cast as it is on live (specifically since every person who picked her up and loved her before the change who I have seen or talked to really hate her after) If they changed her back I would go back to having her as my favorite midlane mage no matter how weak she is. As well as funtioning the same as live if they just remove the lockout on her w, so in essence you cast w-e-w to throw someone through the minefield if you so choose.

TLDR I dont like vector casting and I miss tahliyah because i just don't enjoy her anymore. Vector casting is not a bad thing but I feel like it makes tahliyah's w less precise due to the casting indicator, i also think she feels clunky with the changes. Riot could cater to both people who really enjoyed tahliyah by enabling both casting options without the lockout as on release and allowing the players to choose which option they want to play with.

My two cents, take it or leave it.

MalignisDec 5, 20163 votes

This was exactly my feeling too, I was in love with Taliyah, when she was released I played her almost every game and got mastery 7 and was loving it. I didn't care about the numbers, they could buff or nerf her as they wanted but it was her playstyle and her unique casting type that drew me in. Since they changed her w to vector cast I don't enjoy playing her at all. It feels like the most unique aspect of her playstyle that I spent so much time learning was just swapped away for people who didn't feel like putting in the time to actually learn her.

If they ever decide to change her casting type back to the way it was on release, I will definitely be playing Tali as often as I can despite any number changes. But I liked the max e land w playstyle, I enjoyed the risk/reward element to this playstyle and it made it fun and challenging to learn to play her and felt extremely rewarding when I could consistently land my combo after so many games learning to.

It's really sad too because vector cast really isn't all that much of a difference, but for some reason this change just ruined my favourite champion released in so long, it basically removed the playstyle that I found enjoyable on her because of how clunky the vector cast is when cast after your e now.

Saddest panda :'(

Automated RivenDec 5, 20163 votes

yeah the max e and land W is what I did as well. I was also very upset that riot seemed to cater to the max q playstyle only. by repeatedly nerfing e and buffing q they removed a completely valid way to play her. :(

Nausicäa Dec 4, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Riot does this all the time. They buffed to the point where she can just spray the wave with 2 Qs and say goodbye to the enemy laner. They then proceed to nerf the spells she need to setup her roams in favor of the insane Q waveclear. After that, they nerf her waveclear without reverting the previous nerfs.

Riot Games balance team in a nutshell.

Next on the chopping block Syndra.

Leo1024Dec 4, 201625 votes

I don't see why Riot pampers the broken Lee but when a 43% winrate champion finally does well they gut her kit and leave her in the dirt, not to mention she was still relatively new

Tobias BracknerDec 4, 20161 votes

Lee is fine, git gud

Leo1024Dec 4, 201614 votes

you've been playing league for 2+ seasons now and you're still silver? git gud

NuparuDec 4, 20163 votes

Lee is fine, git gud

Sraeg2013Dec 4, 201612 votes

On my way to gittin gud.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/625/434/be5.gif

Tobias BracknerDec 5, 20161 votes

Sick burn brah

CastaneanDec 4, 201624 votes

Ahem: "Sejuani's had her time in the spotlight, it's time for other champions to have it." -Riot Time Wizard.

... Okay so the quote wasn't EXACTLY that, but that's what it boiled down to, really. That's right Riot. You might have thought I'd forgotten.

You're wrong.

#I'll never forget. ######In fact; I have the EXACT quote if you want it.

Serika ZeroDec 4, 20166 votes

unless its Lee, because here at rito games we love the Dee.

AuraCreedDec 4, 201614 votes

Logged in just to upvote. Kick Taliyah into the Dirt with a ~~Lee sin ult~~ nerf hammer and she can't even get back up on her own two feet despite the fact she controls that earth.

23382622_DELDec 4, 201610 votes

I tried playing Tal recently - her mechanics do not reward the player in any way for executing combos - her damage is pitiful. Not sure why a non-support mage has such terrible magic output. Utility can only compensate for so much.

Also, make her passive work on all areas of the map. The wall requirement is clunky and unnecessary - it only works out of combat anyways (basically an analog of "strut," but ostensibly sh*ttier - ESPECIALLY since that is Tal's passive)

Edit: Also, I don't think Lee Sin is an especially broken character. 2cents.

Resonance x LFTDec 4, 20169 votes

Possibly because there are really well-designed champions. Lee Sin, Thresh, Lucian, Zed, Ryze, and Maokai are literally the best designed champions in this game. Everything in their kit is nearly perfect and fits the job description to a T in their class. Lee Sin is supposed to be limited to the player and how well they play him. Still, even Lee falls off into hell in the late game and is comparable to Elise or Evelynn. Lee Sin has counterplay in his kit. All you guys gotta do is dodge the Q. That's it. If you can't dodge skill shots, then you deserve to die, and Lee Sin deserves the win.

Sorry, but I'm not going to join the circlejerk of the boards saying that everything I get cheesed by is broken.

NotPillowDec 4, 20168 votes

ryze one of the best designed champs in the game >gets reworked like 6 times

GayFluffyUnicornDec 4, 20165 votes

The only reason lee seems so busted and everyone wants to play him is this stupid level 3 gank on a level 1 lane. Lee as one of the strongest early game champs with one of the best/fastest clears in the game naturally is the right one for this job. Once they fixed that everything will normalize again.

XonraDec 5, 20166 votes

It's Riot and it is Lee Sin.

At this point if Ult kicking someone with Lee just DC'd them he still wouldn't get nerfed. Or he would, and it would be a nerf to the kick distance or something completely pointless.

SkiasDec 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's Riot and it is Lee Sin.

At this point if Ult kicking someone with Lee just DC'd them he still wouldn't get nerfed. Or he would, and it would be a nerf to the kick distance or something completely pointless.

Nah it'd be a 5 AD reduction.

KneelbeforezothDec 4, 20164 votes

i love this post you do realize his win rate is trash right now lol and thats at high elo its like 47% if anyone should be nerfed pick either or Shyvana

RozzetaDec 4, 201614 votes

That's weird. Last time I checked he had around 49% winrate on 37% Play rate. The next most popular Jungler has 12% or something play rate. Such high pick rate means everyone and their mother are playing him, be it experts with him or not, and still wins almost half his matches.

Gregor GysiDec 4, 20162 votes

That's a reasonable assumption to make, but it's still not correct. In fact, the Lee Sin is in average the 5th experienced jungle champion right now with in average 76 games played.

People should be worried about Ivern (Weedwick level broken, but harder to play), Shyvana, Vi, Heca and Skarner. Those are the truly Top tier jungler, in that order.

Sraeg2013Dec 4, 20163 votes

Funny shit that his Plat+ winrate is 49.8% with 37.1% pickrate.

KneelbeforezothDec 5, 20161 votes

this will change in 6.24 cause that whole level 3 clear path is getting nerfed so lee sin will be back to full clear or level 2 ganking

EVERYONE JUST CALM DOWN

Sraeg2013Dec 5, 20161 votes

Except those were also his stats BEFORE Krugs were changed.

FeindbildDec 5, 20164 votes

Sadly, the answer is because he's popular and flashy, and once upon a time, RIOT admitted that they won't nerf him because he's too popular. He was slated to get actual nerfs and balance changes once before, but all his mains whined and complained until RIOT reverted it, and they admitted that as the reasoning.

https://twitter.com/mdnghtwave/status/483852677634215937

In another post, he had said that so long as Elise and Evelynn didn't receive nerfs, since they were the 3 top junglers at the time, that Lee wouldn't get nerfed. Eventually both of them got their nerfs, but Lee has only been buffed since then

Keylight XDDec 4, 20162 votes

well, how can you nerf someone who is handicapped? that's just cruel, not his fault that he is blind. I understand riot in this.

Kitty HoleDec 4, 20161 votes

Man people complain too much on these forums. Lee sin isn't even op compared to other champs who dont even depend on a gap closer to derail the game.

Seriously, how do you miss these champs? Annie Blitzcrank Heimerdinger Lux Nasus Pantheon Teemo Vayne Veigar XinZhao Yasuo Talon

Broken and yet LeeSin is op because he connected with his gap closer.

Just checked your match history, you played against him ONCE as adc missfortune last game not even ranked and you fed bot lane 3 mins in, i bet lee sin camped you until mid game.

Don't even get me started on that AP build on MissFortune , i cant take you serious.

Votable JesterDec 4, 20163 votes

You seem to consider annoying/frustrating to play against to be the same thing as being op.

A Basic IslandDec 4, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fl2OhEgn,comment-id=000b0002,timestamp=2016-12-04T11:21:21.751+0000)

You seem to consider annoying/frustrating to play against to be the same thing as being op.

the irony in this statement

SkiasDec 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitty Hole,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fl2OhEgn,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-12-04T10:47:02.850+0000)

Man people complain too much on these forums. Lee sin isn't even op compared to other champs who dont even depend on a gap closer to derail the game.

Seriously, how do you miss these champs?

Broken and yet is op because he connected with his gap closer.

Just checked your match history, you played against him ONCE as adc missfortune last game not even ranked and you fed bot lane 3 mins in, i bet lee sin camped you until mid game.

Don't even get me started on that AP build on , i cant take you serious.

What the hell are you talking about?

Kitty HoleDec 4, 20161 votes

Don't waste my time.

SkiasDec 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitty Hole,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fl2OhEgn,comment-id=000b00030000,timestamp=2016-12-04T18:55:44.408+0000)

Don't waste my time.

Internet tough guy.

Kitty HoleDec 5, 20161 votes

Don't make me take off my belt.

SkiasDec 5, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitty Hole,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fl2OhEgn,comment-id=000b0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-05T17:19:24.561+0000)

Don't make me take off my belt.

Easy there, killer.