Kog dealing 12% Max HP magic damage over 3 attacks is too much for the game to handle

Rebonack·Dec 9, 2015·91 votes·5,352 views

Vayne dealing 12% Max HP true damage over three attacks is just fine.

Okay.

136 Comments

Shac NorrisDec 9, 201550 votes

Kog'Maw doesn't have a dash, invisibility and hard CC.

So yeah, it's okay!

RebonackDec 9, 201527 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shac Norris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=agtTtqk8,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-09T03:22:06.280+0000)

Kog'Maw doesn't have a dash, invisibility and hard CC.

So yeah, it's okay!

But he DOES have a spammable poke that deals less damage than an auto-attack and makes him go OOM after five shots.

Clearly this makes up for it.

Shac NorrisDec 9, 20156 votes

Nah, that's just vomit.

AckelopeDec 9, 201534 votes

Kog gets to stand much further back and gets more attack speed. Look.. I'm a fan of Kog, and not really a fan of Vayne, but this is not the best point to make.

RebonackDec 9, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Kog gets to stand much further back and gets more attack speed. Look.. I'm a fan of Kog, and not really a fan of Vayne, but this is not the best point to make.

I only contrast the two since Koggy and Vayne are two of the game's three ADCs with true hyper-carry curves (number three being Twitch). Kog has better range and his execute is amazing. Vayne grinds down hard targets MUCH faster and is safer at all points in the game due to her ample means of breaking focus on herself. Vayne's self-sufficiency will always make her more popular in Solo, but Kog really deserves better than what he's getting.

Honestly, he was fine this patch mechanically. All Riot needed to do was bump up his base HP until he was robust enough to have a chance at surviving the lane phase. Maybe make it a little easier for him to last-hit without proccing his Innate.

SquidblimpDec 9, 20159 votes

Kog is now MUCH stronger early game. His late game took a SMALL hit, but you shouldn't be building much AD on Kog, you should be building on-hits anyway, so it won't affect him much to be honest. Now you'll be able to hold your own in lane much more easily. Guinsoo's, Runaan's and BotRK is core.

RebonackDec 9, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Kog is now MUCH stronger early game.

He's getting about 1% more %HP damage from the gate than he got previously. He's also losing the ability to prime Fervor on minions for extra damage in trades.

That amounts to 5-6 extra damage from W and 10 less damage from Fervor, resulting in a net loss of 4-5 damage. I'm not sure if that counts as much stronger, let alone ALLCAPS MUCH stronger.

SquidblimpDec 9, 201517 votes

Nice taunting me. Real nice.

Anyway, he actually had no base damage before, his %HP only scaled with AP and AD. Building attack speed on him almost felt not worth it, if not for the on-hits you build on him. Now he has a base on-hit, the early attack speed you build on him is actually good. I very much disagree with your math, have a nice day.

RebonackDec 9, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Nice taunting me. Real nice.

Anyway, he actually had no base damage before, his %HP only scaled with AP and AD. Building attack speed on him almost felt not worth it, if not for the on-hits you build on him. Now he has a base on-hit, the early attack speed you build on him is actually good. I very much disagree with your math, have a nice day.

Between runes, masteries, and Doren's Blade, hitting 80 attack damage (what Koggy needs for 1% HP damage) is quite possible by level 1 and all but inevitable by level 3.

This would be a buff if you're running pure IAS runes and starting with a Dagger I guess?

Also: don't take silliness so seriously D=

SquidblimpDec 9, 20154 votes

Hard to tell silliness on the internet, lol. My bad if you weren't being rude. :P

StaconaDec 10, 20152 votes

Vayne is broken, but by no means is she a hyper - Kindred, Kog, Ashe, Jinx, Twitch I say are hyper marksmen

RebonackDec 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Vayne is broken, but by no means is she a hyper - Kindred, Kog, Ashe, Jinx, Twitch I say are hyper marksmen

Out of the champs you mentioned, only Kog and Twitch have hyper-carry curves.

And, you know, Vayne.

In case you're unaware, a champion displays a hyper-carry curve if their win-rate grows strongly with game length.

Before his remake, Kog wasn't even a true hyper-carry. His power spiked mid and dropped off due to his synergy with Trinity.

LaowPingDec 10, 20152 votes

Jinx and Kindred are most definitely hyper carries. Kindred's hypercarry status is more dependent on her stacks compared to the rest but she can hyper can. Jinx destroys entire teams late game.

Chaotic ReksDec 9, 20153 votes

cool, and vayne does true damage with 2 AD steroids

JustMyBassCannonDec 9, 201516 votes

Vayne dealing 3 attacks in less than a second is too much for the game to handle.

But it's fine for Kog'maw. Okay.

Loco LittleDec 9, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Vayne dealing 3 attacks in less than a second is too much for the game to handle.

But it's fine for Kog'maw. Okay.

Damage reduction.

RebonackDec 9, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Loco Little,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=agtTtqk8,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-12-09T16:49:45.975+0000)

Damage reduction.

Don't forget that Koggy also effectively roots himself in place while Vayne is able to tumble about freely.

JustMyBassCannonDec 9, 20154 votes

And let's not forget that Vayne literally has no damage outside of getting in engagement range, whereas Kog'maw is one of the three sniper-Marksmen with longer than average attack range and extra long-range spells.

Now, if you're trying to start a discussion about Kog'maw needing buffs, or Vayne needing nerfs, maybe you need to put some substance to it, other than comparing two diametrically opposed styles of Marksmen.

JustMyBassCannonDec 9, 20152 votes

That only applies to the AD on his attacks, which is not the core of his damage.

Unless you're talking about damage reduction to the total damage of his attacks, in which case I'll point out that the vast majority of Vayne's damage output is physical, and thus reduced by Armor. And she doesn't have a % Armor/MR shred skill.

Loco LittleDec 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That only applies to the AD on his attacks, which is not the core of his damage.

Unless you're talking about damage reduction to the total damage of his attacks, in which case I'll point out that the vast majority of Vayne's damage output is physical, and thus reduced by Armor. And she doesn't have a % Armor/MR shred skill.

The above sentence was just completely wrong xD

The core of Kogmaw's damage is physical damage when you are ADC kogmaw , unless you build him AP, which is also a viable option but not the point of the discussion.

The core abilities that apply physical damage are purposely given damage reduction.

No, vayne doesn't have a %armor/MR shred skill, she has a %true damage skill. Which is worse.

Are you trolling or did you just read the tool tips completely wrong?

JustMyBassCannonDec 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Loco Little,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=agtTtqk8,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-14T17:52:13.640+0000)

The above sentence was just completely wrong xD

The core of Kogmaw's damage is physical damage when you are ADC kogmaw , unless you build him AP, which is also a viable option but not the point of the discussion.

The OP isn't talking about ADC Kog'maw, or the physical damage of Kog'maw at all. Or anything about physical damage, period. And neither did I until you mentioned the DR.

So, actually, yeah, what I said is relevant to the discussion.

The core abilities that apply physical damage are purposely given damage reduction.

...NONE of Kog'maw's abilities are physical damage. The only physical damage in his kit ever since his creation has been his total AD on basic attacks.

No, vayne doesn't have a %armor/MR shred skill, she has a %true damage skill. Which is worse.

Right, because her personal damage output is the only damage on the team, how could I forget?

It's not like Kog shredding Armor/MR on a tank by almost 30% makes them extremely vulnerable in team fights or something.

Hint: while I agree that Kog'maw still needs work, Kog'maw is designed as a team fighter while Vayne is designed as a solo vigilante that the team has to protect while she whittles down enemies one by one. So, quite obviously, their strengths are completely different, making their one and only similarity not a valid comparison.

Are you trolling or did you just read the tool tips completely wrong?

By a certain vein of thought, you could call it trolling. I am the "Devil's Advocate" wherein I juxtapose the ideas of another against their opposition. The idea is to get you to think for yourself, especially if you are only considering one perspective.

I'm not opposing Kog'maw buffs or Vayne nerfs, nor am I advocating either. I am here to call into question others' line of thinking, because the goal is getting you to outsmart me.

Loco LittleDec 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The OP isn't talking about ADC Kog'maw, or the physical damage of Kog'maw at all. Or anything about physical damage, period. And neither did I until you mentioned the DR.

So, actually, yeah, what I said is relevant to the discussion.

...NONE of Kog'maw's abilities are physical damage. The only physical damage in his kit ever since his creation has been his total AD on basic attacks.

Right, because her personal damage output is the only damage on the team, how could I forget?

It's not like Kog shredding Armor/MR on a tank by almost 30% makes them extremely vulnerable in team fights or something.

Hint: while I agree that Kog'maw still needs work, Kog'maw is designed as a team fighter while Vayne is designed as a solo vigilante that the team has to protect while she whittles down enemies one by one. So, quite obviously, their strengths are completely different, making their one and only similarity not a valid comparison.

By a certain vein of thought, you could call it trolling. I am the "Devil's Advocate" wherein I juxtapose the ideas of another against their opposition. The idea is to get you to think for yourself, especially if you are only considering one perspective.

I'm not opposing Kog'maw buffs or Vayne nerfs, nor am I advocating either. I am here to call into question others' line of thinking, because the goal is getting you to outsmart me.

Well now not only do I think your wrong I also think you're arrogant. If you're going to automatically assume that I'm not thinking and that you have 'get me to think' I might aswell stop talking. Good job.

JustMyBassCannonDec 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Loco Little,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=agtTtqk8,comment-id=000200000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-16T15:56:38.536+0000)

Well now not only do I think your wrong

*You're And are you actually capable of proving this, or is that your opinion?

I also think you're arrogant.

At times, yes, I can be arrogant.

If you're going to automatically assume that I'm not thinking and that you have 'get me to think' I might aswell stop talking. Good job.

My general assumption is that 90% of the people on the Boards either haven't taken the time to consider things or are incapable of processing a coherent thought, because that is my personal experience in dealing with them on a regular basis for 5 years.

You are perpetuating this bias, rather than alleviating it.

Instead of actually trying to tell me how I'm wrong, you just weasel out of it with "Well, I think you're wrong" and no facts. Instead of countering any of my points or explaining your own perspective, you just shut up and ragequit the argument. You take insult at being told that I'm trying to get people to think, because apparently debates aren't supposed to present opposed sides of an argument to do exactly that. You chalk it up to my arrogance instead of your own laziness and/or lack of anything on which to stand.

Whether or not you read this, good day and enjoy your blissful ignorance.

Loco LittleDec 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

*You're And are you actually capable of proving this, or is that your opinion?

At times, yes, I can be arrogant.

My general assumption is that 90% of the people on the Boards either haven't taken the time to consider things or are incapable of processing a coherent thought, because that is my personal experience in dealing with them on a regular basis for 5 years.

You are perpetuating this bias, rather than alleviating it.

Instead of actually trying to tell me how I'm wrong, you just weasel out of it with "Well, I think you're wrong" and no facts. Instead of countering any of my points or explaining your own perspective, you just shut up and ragequit the argument. You take insult at being told that I'm trying to get people to think, because apparently debates aren't supposed to present opposed sides of an argument to do exactly that. You chalk it up to my arrogance instead of your own laziness and/or lack of anything on which to stand.

Whether or not you read this, good day and enjoy your blissful ignorance.

Actually, No. You need to be put in the ground for your blatantly disgusting attitude to other people. When I have more time I will reply to this, so you just wait there like a good boy.

JustMyBassCannonDec 16, 20151 votes

Watch out, we got a badass here.

Let's see if this comes down to an actual debate or just a string of worthless ad hominem. Either way, I presume to be entertained.

Loco LittleDec 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Watch out, we got a badass here.

Let's see if this comes down to an actual debate or just a string of worthless ad hominem. Either way, I presume to be entertained.

You do realise this whole argument we are having is ad hominem, it has nothing to do with the subject on Kogmaw.

JustMyBassCannonDec 16, 20151 votes

Pffft, no, you started taking up this argument because of a perceived insult rather than an actual one. I tried to stick to talking about game balance, but you became obsessed with the fact that I would dare presume random strangers on the internet to not have the same mindset as I do regarding a subject, because the way I phrased it was "get you to think." You took it as "make you start using your brain" instead of "give another mental perspective," and now I'm just watching to see how this shit blows up.

RebonackDec 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Pffft, no, you started taking up this argument because of a perceived insult rather than an actual one. I tried to stick to talking about game balance, but you became obsessed with the fact that I would dare presume random strangers on the internet to not have the same mindset as I do regarding a subject, because the way I phrased it was "get you to think." You took it as "make you start using your brain" instead of "give another mental perspective," and now I'm just watching to see how this shit blows up.

Put in another way, Bass is trying to apply the Socratic method of debate to this topic, eg: the purpose of debate isn't to prove that you're right, it's to open people's eyes to perspectives that they might not have previously considered. In that way, both parties can learn and expand their understanding.

Loco LittleDec 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Pffft, no, you started taking up this argument because of a perceived insult rather than an actual one. I tried to stick to talking about game balance, but you became obsessed with the fact that I would dare presume random strangers on the internet to not have the same mindset as I do regarding a subject, because the way I phrased it was "get you to think." You took it as "make you start using your brain" instead of "give another mental perspective," and now I'm just watching to see how this shit blows up.

If that really was your true intention. Then fine, I shall take it as a misunderstanding. Apologies for my rudeness. I retract my previous statement.

However, if at any point during this argument your true intention was simply to condemn others, which from your previous posts to me you can probably see why I would get that opinion. Then shame on you, just because you have had previous experience on the forums with other users does not mean I or another will be the same. I think we should both learn to treat others with respect at first. I also realise now I did not do so. So I also apologize for my first post.

JustMyBassCannonDec 16, 20152 votes

I can absolutely understand how you came to that conclusion. After all, you've already pointed out my arrogant streak, and many would take that as a reason to believe I'm saying "look upon my genius" instead. They have done it before. And I am sorry for my insulting arrogance.

Full BrainDec 9, 201513 votes

"Deal 55% damage to non minions."

Are they removing this? Because I don't recall Vayne having anything like half of her damage taken away to use her proc. Kog has no stun or escape also. They have been chipping away at Kog's viability for a while now and basically turning him into a one trick pony. Vayne has a stun, an escape, a far superior ultimate, and does true damage; she is still far more viable. They will likely ruin rageblade as well soon and make kog unplayable.

Rebonack is right they really just needed to increase his base health and probably reduce the mana cost on his awful ultimate.

flibitydooDec 9, 201510 votes

the 55% is only to AD. on-hits (including the on-hit from bio-arcane barrage) still apply damage at full effectiveness.

The LovelessDec 9, 20152 votes

Even bork?

IcyPepperDec 9, 201511 votes

All on-hit effects.

So yes, bork too. There's a reason on-hit AS Koggy is in!

Full BrainDec 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

the 55% is only to AD. on-hits (including the on-hit from bio-arcane barrage) still apply damage at full effectiveness.

What is your point? They have forced Kog into needing items with onhit procs and centering your build around his w. What is he really getting for having no mobility or build diversity? That extra range isn't much of an advantage when everyone else can leap to you, become invisible, create a clone, or throw up a fucking windwall. His kit is subpar and he has no mobility or survivability stop crying about his proc being better than Vayne's.

HawkefireDec 9, 20154 votes

I do agree that they pigeonholed kog into on-hit builds because of his W change, and I also agree that the league of mobility does not treat little koggles very well. But I am not so sure how we could change koggles kit around aside from flat out reverting the rework or changing his kit quite drastically.

We can buff his W damage but we must be very careful when doing so as he has the potential to do an insane amount of damage with that ability.

His E is pretty iconic to him and I would be sad if that were removed, same with his ult.

So that just leaves his Q and his passive up for changing.

Except...I don't know what to change his passive or his Q into...they both feel pretty solid (yeah the passive is pretty damn gimmicky at best, but I must say it would feel pretty weird if it was something else).

cHampDAcHizLaDec 9, 20152 votes

The only thing I can think of is, maybe make it so he can move and attack fluidly when he's not using his W. As in make his auto-attacks similar to Kalistas passive, only without the dash between attacks. This would give some ability to duck and dodge, while farming/harassing at the same time, and might make his early game much stronger.

Aside from something like that, I agree that significantly changing his kit is almost impossible without a significant rework. His model wouldn't really work with any sort of dash/jump, and a knock back would be counter intuitive for his kit.

RebonackDec 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I do agree that they pigeonholed kog into on-hit builds because of his W change, and I also agree that the league of mobility does not treat little koggles very well. But I am not so sure how we could change koggles kit around aside from flat out reverting the rework or changing his kit quite drastically.

We can buff his W damage but we must be very careful when doing so as he has the potential to do an insane amount of damage with that ability.

His E is pretty iconic to him and I would be sad if that were removed, same with his ult.

So that just leaves his Q and his passive up for changing.

Except...I don't know what to change his passive or his Q into...they both feel pretty solid (yeah the passive is pretty damn gimmicky at best, but I must say it would feel pretty weird if it was something else).

What could potentially be interesting?

Make his W a toggle ( Koggle-Toggle if you will) but make it actually root him in place when he casts it. The range would probably need to be bumped up a bit and the deactivate cooldown would need to be high enough to prevent him from planting himself, taking a few shots, then turning it off to kite. But I think it could work and fits well with his whole 'immobile turret champion' play pattern.

Then?

Give Koggy a new Innate that renders him totally immune to any form of displacement, friendly or otherwise, when he's rooted. Because it's about time we get an anti-knockup champion.

HawkefireDec 9, 20153 votes

Real talk: If his damage wasn't cut by 55%, he would slaughter everything and everyone.

DorkunedAurasDec 9, 20153 votes

I guarantee you at some point in the creation of this, he has double AS with no penalty, where upon he proceeded to become THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS!

MunchCrunchLunchDec 9, 201510 votes

TRUE DAMAGE. any tank gets enough MR to block 70% of that. vayne. CANNOT be defended against.

AnidanDec 10, 20153 votes

She's not meant to be. She is outright designed to not give a single solitary fuck about how tanky you are, because she is designed to kill you regardless.

Did people forget that she was designed to be League's premier tank-buster? You're not supposed to have an answer for her damage - she is designed to systematically tear through your team, one at a time (because she has literally zero AoE, at all) when you get into her zone (because she has no way of doing shit outside of her AA range, at all).

Lady HammerlockDec 9, 20158 votes

Maybe its because of his range that doesn't matter if theres an assassin unlike vayne who can 1 vs 1 zed because yk reasons

The Sword SaintDec 9, 20157 votes

Kog can buy ruunans and do that to 3 people at once, vayne cant. Kog can hit 5.0 attack speed, vayne cant.

SouL1essDec 9, 20159 votes

Kog'maw's percentile damage is on a >6 second CD.

Vayne's percentile damage is always active.

BLU MedicDec 9, 20157 votes

On the flip side, having 5.0 attack speed basically means rooting your squishy self in place and losing the ability to orb walk. And it's not like Vayne can't buy Runaan's. Sure, it's not as effective on her, but she can still buy it.

Kog'Maw's problem is that he needs an entire team to be picked and played around him, when Vayne can work in the majority of situations.

QchanDec 10, 20152 votes

Just gonna point out that taking Runaan's on Vayne would completely nullify her silver bolts.

It Hertz When IPDec 10, 20154 votes

No it doesn't, Silver Bolts will stack normally on the primary target as the secondary bolts do not proc it.

Cloud PotatoDec 9, 20151 votes

It was 18% before the rework. And you forgot to mention that it scales with AP.

RebonackDec 9, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cloud Potato,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=agtTtqk8,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-12-09T04:37:34.060+0000)

It was 18% before the rework. And you forgot to mention that it scales with AP.

I will admit that this is a straight buff to AP/Marksmen Kog. But I'm pretty sure Riot wanted AP Kog to be secondary, right? And balance him around being AD? If so, the change to his W is pretty puzzling.