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@Riot Your Design Team and your Balance Team seem to live on different Planets.

Holgranth··145 votes·6,112 views

Whether you like them or not the Design Team is trying to make Cool and Unique Champions, their Success rate is debatable but the intention is clear. Illaoi, Kindred, TahmKench, Ekko ,Bard ,Kalista. They are ALL unique and powerful and bring something new to the game. They all have situational power (whether or not it is situational enoughIllaoi TahmKench Kalista or too situational Bard Kindred is up for debate.)

The reworks have had similar goals, everywhere you look Design is pushing for uniqueness, for interesting interactions, for cool team compositions. Masteries, New items, Mass reworking of entire classes, removing Old Problem items and Champions. I may question HOW they are trying to do it, but I understand and love the direction they are trying to go.

Then there are the people in charge of Balance. Where to even begin?

The love of (and possible raging boner(s) and/or lady boner(s) forLeeSin? The Dumpstering and ignoring of an easily balanced, fun, interesting jungle champion with clear strengths and weaknesses?Sion The Dumpstering of Sejuani who can barely clear jungle and cannot lane?

Lets Start with Sion . Best rework EVER! Way to go design! He was OP with release Cinderhulk? Too Bad! Leave him completely gutted and barely able to jungle! Why? Because balance has more important things to worry about than balancing the game! It wouldn't even be hard to improve Sion's jungle without making him overpowered top, but the Balance team just ignore him. Similar problem occurs with Nautilus he is briefly OP as a support, gets nerfed and gets left in the trash as a jungler.

Does Riot have the tools to balance these champions in the jungle? Absolutely! Why don't they? No idea!

Meanwhile everything about LeeSin is completely contrary to EVERY new champion Riot releases. Every new champion has a niche, every rework tries to put old champions that were good at too many things into a new niche. LeeSin is good at EVERYTHING. He has pretty much everything a jungler could ever want or need in one convenient kit.

Having a high skill ceiling is not an excuse, the bias towards LeeSin is obvious, the Balance team is bias, the Esports casters are bias and the professional players are biased. Because of this bias LeeSin warps the entire metagame further ensuring that diversity in the jungle remains a dream.

How about Sejuani ? Beat to death alongside Sion for the same reason! But it gets better:

_"We tend to let champions like Sejuani [who thrived close to a 60% win rate for a while], level off after we nerf them in some way. We're not intending to leave them to die and be forgotten, but in the interest of keeping the live environment fresh, we don't want to rebound and throw more buffs at her, since she only just stopped being picked so much. She'll be back -- we're just trying to let other champions have some time in the spotlight!"

Riot Time Wizard_

So Sejuani is overpowered for 2 months and gets left in the dumpster indefinitely. LeeSin warps the professional scene for years, is constantly played at all levels of play, oppresses the living hell out of anyone without a fast early clear and gets buffed the second he loses power in preseason?

It is time for Live Balance to stop living in season two. It is time to do your job and balance the live environment as best you can.

153 Comments

Vekkna47 votes

I always felt Lee was op, so I checked the numbers just to see if I was crazy.

At level 9 with 1 item each, with only Warrior enchant, here's Lee's Q damage equivalency relative to other champs:

  • 70% of Kat's ulti with Luden's
  • Kat's entire QEW with Luden's
  • all 3 charges of Akali's ulti with Gunblade
  • 28 less damage than Diana's Q plus both ultis with Runeglaive
  • Zed's Q plus shadow hit with Ghostblade
  • Lux's ulti plus passive proc with Morello's
  • Two entire Teemo mushrooms with NLR
  • 4-ball Syndra ulti with Morello's

Totally balanced.

LankPants11 votes

Sounds like fun, now do his ult.

The Governer27 votes

How do you thoroughly and accurately the equivalency of Lee Sin's Q damage when AP are on a completely different track from AD and there are both bonus AD ratio and total AD ratio (which are 2 different AD ratios measuring different aspects of AD) in the game? Both Lee Sin's Qs scale with bonus AD, which means that only runes, masteries and items that grant bonus AD can affect the ratio. If a Lee SIn only has one AD item at level 9, he is not going to deal the amount of damage you mentioned. In fact, it's much less than you expected if you disregard the missing health ratio from his second Q.

I am not saying you are wrong in terms of Lee Sin being overloaded and generally good at everything (he definitely is), but this "equivalency table" looks more like personal bias to me.

Vekkna10 votes

That math is for BONUS AD, not total AD. I also didn't even include ANY of his % hp modifiers, including Q, or runes. So in practice it's actually far, far worse than I mathed out.

It's not personal bias. Look at my comment history and go the my post with the full math on Kat.

The Governer12 votes

It is personal bias because you are ignoring what items the champions you compare will buy, etc... I can't fathom how you even compared Katarina's QEW's damage with Lee Sin's double Qs when Katarina's Q damage is varied, and her QEW combo plus Luden's Echo (considering her Q's maximum damage) should deal more raw damage than Lee Sin's double Qs (again, disregarding his % missing health modifiers) at her level 9. If you are comparing Katarina's level 3 damage plus Luden Echo's proc to Lee Sin's double Qs' damage at level 9 with one AD item, you are comparing apple to orange, but I am sure you aren't this dumb so I want your clarification on this.

What types of items do these champions in the above table buy? What levels do these champions have? What ranks are the above abilities? If you can't answer these questions properly you are exhibiting personal bias in this supposedly objective table lol.

Rubber Jesus10 votes

If you are comparing Katarina's level 3 damage plus Luden Echo's proc to Lee Sin's double Qs' damage at level 9 with one AD item, you are comparing apple to orange, but I am sure you aren't this dumb so I want your clarification on this.

WTF are you saying, dude? I can't believe you are this dumb, and I'd like clarification on what you mean by this? My math is below. Please feel free to show your level 3 Kat vs level 9 Lee Sin math to clarify.

Since you don't seem to be able to look up champions abilities and perform the check on the math before you blatantly call him out, I'll help you. I don't understand why you couldn't just glance at the numbers and his math to do simple addition in your head, but here goes.

Here is Katarina's Q ability: Bouncing Blades Throws a dagger dealing 60/85/110/135/160 (+0.45*AP) magic damage. The dagger bounces to the 4 closest enemies dealing 10% less damage with each bounce. Enemies hit are marked for 4 seconds. Katarina's basic attacks or spells will consume the mark dealing 15/30/45/60/75 (+0.15*AP) additional magic damage.

**Rank 5 is bolded. **

So, you claim her Q damage is varied. Well, he took care of that for you and calculated damage based on the highest amount. Look at the bold numbers. Those are the highest amounts you can do. Here is the math, with Q at rank 5: (160+75) + (.45AP + .15AP) 235 + .6AP *Luden's has 100 AP, so .6 * 100 = 60 235+60=295

Here is a quote from Vekkna's calculation:

Q (both hits): 235 + .6 AP = 295

Here is Lee Sin's Q ability: Sonic Wave Sonic Wave: Lee Sin projects a discordant wave of sound to locate his enemies, dealing 50/80/110/140/170 (+0.9*Bonus AD) physical damage to the first enemy it encounters. If Sonic Wave hits, Lee Sin can cast Resonating Strike for the next 3 seconds. Resonating Strike: Lee Sin dashes to the enemy hit by Sonic Wave, dealing 50/80/110/140/170 (+0.9*Bonus AD) physical damage plus 8% of their missing Health (Max: 400 Damage vs. Monsters).

Rank 5 is bolded.

So, let's do this simple math again! Again, if Lee levels Q first, this is what it will look like. (170+170) + (.9 bAD + .9 bAD) 340 + 1.8bAD *Warrior's has 60 AD. 1.8 * 60 = 108 340+108 = 448

Quote from Vekkna: Q (both hits): 340 + 1.8 bAD = 448

If you want to add in the bonus damage from Luden's, then look at the tooltip for the ability and do the math. UNIQUE: Gains charges upon moving or casting. At 100 charges, the next instance of ability damage you deal will expend all charges to deal 100 (+ 10% AP) bonus magic damage to the first enemy hit and summon up to 3 lesser bolts that target nearby enemies, prioritizing enemies damaged by the ability and champions over minions. 100 + (100*.1) 100 + 10 = 110 (with Luden's Echo only) 295 (math from eariler, see above bolded) + 110 = 405

For Katarina, if you want to look at item damage in addition to her ability only damage, you would add 295 + 110. This is 405, and it is still lower than Lee Sin's damage of 448.

**TL;DR ** Lee Sin rank 5 Q damage with Warrior's = 448. Katarina rank 5 Q damage with Luden's = 295. Katarina rank 5 Q damage with Luden's, plus the Luden proc = 405.

PS: Math is not that hard. This could all be easily fact checked in my head, without a need for line by line calculations. His calculations for the rest are correct and I'm not going to line by line do the math for every single one of them.

The Governer11 votes

You don't need to insult me to get a point across, and yes I did check his/her post on Katarina's damage vs Lee Sin's damage. My response is in my second comment in response to his/hers: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/agsboEph-riot-your-design-team-and-your-balance-team-seem-to-live-on-different-planets?comment=0003000100000001

The thing is, in order to access a champion's strengths/weaknesses, you need to go through the whole kit instead of subjectively selecting a few elements of the kit and then proceeding to claim that a champion is "overpowered/underpowered". That's not how champion balance works, and yes as far as I am concerned, Lee Sin is in the "overloaded kit" category and excels even in late game even in terms of damage as an early game champion, but that doesn't discredit the fact that he/she is possessing personal bias by picking a champion apart and then comparing it to another champion's kit.

{quoted} Kat's entire QEW with Luden's

Last but not least, you forgot to take into account Katarina's W and E, because he/she clearly stated that in her initial post. Adding the damage of her W and E and you will see that the damage exceeds Lee Sin's double Qs. That was what I was asking for clarification on.

JMoormann2 votes

Yes, you need to see a champion's entire kit. When I see Katarina's entire kit, I see only damage: not even the slightest bit of utility in there.

When I look at Lee's kit, I see comparable damage: Q-E-R will likely deal around the same damage as Kat's full combo (without having to build full AD). However, Lee has multiple mobility spells, he has CC, vision, so much more than Kat.

QEW: He probably meant without Luden's proc, only with the 100 AP.

The Governer6 votes

Because Katarina's role is different compared to Lee Sin. Katarina is a pure assassin (or AOE burst mage) for that matter. Lee Sin is utility mobile fighter/bruiser. Comparing Katarina to Lee Sin is like comparing Orianna to to let's say, Ashe. You won't form any valid and objective conclusions. Apple to orange.

Champions need to be accessed individually. And individually speaking, Lee Sin indeed is very overloaded and his late game is strong even when he should supposedly fall behind, but personal bias is another thing. Personal bias blinds judgement and is purely based on hate on a champion.

The Governer9 votes

Here's the thing, Katarina has resets upon killing other people, furthering increasing her damage output by a ton, whereas Lee Sin doesn't. The reason why Katarina's basic abilities are weak are that her entire kit is revolved around her ultimate and her passive, making her ultimate front-loaded with damage. Thus, comparing Katarina's QWE to Lee Sin's double Qs is also comparing apple to orange.

A lot of things in your table aren't very objectively analyzed, for example Akali's 3Rs and Gunblade. Similar to Katarina, Akali doesn't deal a lot of damage with her ultimate because of the utility it brings and the fact that her rest of the kit already brings a crap load of damage and stealth. That is why when you try to differentiate the damage between Akali's 3Rs with Gunblade and Lee Sin's double Qs you are getting nowhere.

Even if you try to objectively look at this there are still way too many things to consider. All champions gain armor per level, whilst a lot of champions do not gain magic resist per level, thus making their magic resist infinitely 30 unless they buy magic resist items, use magic resist runes and masteries. There are a lot of items in the game so why was Luden's Echo only considered in your calculations? Masteries also happen to turn the tide of the game too, further modifying the damage both Lee Sin and Katarina deal.

TL:DR While I agree Lee SIn desperately needs changes to highlight his weaknesses and strengths, and nerf his late game power, this table of yours doesn't seem to take everything into consideration in an objective manner.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

I always felt Lee was op, so I checked the numbers just to see if I was crazy.

At level 9 with 1 item each, here's Lee's Q damage equivalency relative to other champs:

  • 70% of Kat's ulti with Luden's
  • Kat's entire QEW with Luden's
  • all 3 charges of Akali's ulti with Gunblade
  • 28 less damage than Diana's Q plus both ultis with Runeglaive
  • Zed's Q plus shadow hit with Ghostblade
  • Lux's ulti plus passive proc with Morello's
  • Two entire Teemo mushrooms with NLR
  • 4-ball Syndra ulti with Morello's

Totally balanced.

His total burst has a 480% AD ratio if you don't count any auto attacks and he has a 40% AS boost on his passive.

"Lee Sin falls off lategame"

UrPalAl1 votes

You are comparing AD to AP, and EARLY GAME to MID-LATE GAME.

Vekkna2 votes

Comparing early to mid/late? This is all champs at level 9, all with their first completed item. Diana, for instance has rank 5 Q and rank 1 ult, and Lee's Q essentially ties her damage without factoring any AAs or % hp modifiers.

Math is a thing you can use to compare numbers. How does the AD/AP difference invalidate an ability damage comparison aside from drastically underestimating the AD'S actual damage potential?

Feel free to respond with an actual argument and facts instead of caps-blurting some meaningless, unsubstantiated nonsense.

warpenguin55534 votes

i wish you used more examples than just Lee Sin. Makes it sound like a QQ thread

Holgranth48 votes

Lee is just the best example. You can make an argument about Fizz or Riven orZed orTahmKench getting treated with favoritism. But Lee is undeniable. They make jokes about how biased they are towards him. I mean you could take this as a QQ thread if you like. I think Lee Sin needs a rework. The point of the thread is in the title though, Live Balance and Champion Design are moving in opposite directions.

Róanin2 votes

{quoted}

Lee is just the best example. You can make an argument about Fizz or Riven orZed orTahmKench getting treated with favoritism. But Lee is undeniable. They make jokes about how biased they are towards him. I mean you could take this as a QQ thread if you like. I think Lee Sin needs a rework. The point of the thread is in the title though, Live Balance and Champion Design are moving in opposite directions.

Imo I think Lee Sin is perfect in his current state. He has a high skill cap, good early damage (like Nidalee and Eve) great mobility and utility from early to mid game. However he falls of late game and his only real use is to insec people into your team and make plays. He has his ups and downs and his kit is extremely fun to play;

TL;DR: Leesin is perfect game design IMHO

P.S: This thread really seems like a Lee sin rant.

Noam Braumsky7 votes

{quoted}

Imo I think Lee Sin is perfect in his current state. He has a high skill cap, good early damage (like Nidalee and Eve) great mobility and utility from early to mid game. However he falls of late game and his only real use is to insec people into your team and make plays. He has his ups and downs and his kit is extremely fun to play;

TL;DR: Leesin is perfect game design IMHO

P.S: This thread really seems like a Lee sin rant.

When someone says a champion falls off late game it makes me think they have high base damages and thus are strong mid game and weaker scalings so they don't deal as much later. Thing is, Lee has both of those things. His kit seems to let him coast into a nice peeling off-tank, but he still has a ton of damage and mobility and an ultimate that feels like getting hit by a truck and knocking over your allies like bowling pins. It does feel like a rant, but it also sort of feels justified. Riot has officially stated they try to let other champions take the spotlight, and it's hard to remember a time where LeeSin wasn't strong.

Sluiceway11 votes

I tried to think of one for you, but there does not seem to be much that is consistently a meta champion outside of Lee Sin and Thresh. Eve, Elise, and J4 are the next closest things I could think of after these two, but all of them have been tweaked in some way either between seasons or during a season that has moved them to the fringes of the meta. I thought of Kassadin, as well, since I remember a season when he was first ban in 90% of LCS games, but he fell out of that spot after being reworked. I remember, too, when Shen top was first pick worthy, but like Eve, Elise, and Jarvan, he eventually fell out of the meta.

Anyway, though it pains me as a support to say this, Thresh is another good example of a champion that is not too difficult to learn, is generally good in most situations, and has been a constant top tier pick in the highest ranks of League over multiple seasons without Riot seeing the need to "encourage diversity."

LankPants4 votes

Eve, Elise, and J4 are the next closest things I could think of

I wouldn't say so because all 3 of them have been fairly bad at one point.

Elise was considered one of the worst champs for a fair while, same with Eve and Eve legitimately was the worst champion by a long way in S2. J4 hasn't been quite as harshly done to but he's not exactly the strongest champ even now.

I think your next best example after Lee/Thresh is probably Gnar. Gnar's been a top pick in the top lane for quite a while now, top is just a lot more diverse than support or especially jungle so it's not quite as obvious.

YCitizenSnipsY7 votes

Well if your including LCS games than you have to include Orianna. She practically manditory for any LCS mid laners champion pool.

Voluug132 votes

Yeah but the difference is that Ori is picked because she is a team player, not raw power or ludicrous kits. She simply amplifies her team's fight potential, nothing more.

Rubber Jesus2 votes

Twisted Fate is a top tier consistent pick in pro leagues, mainly due to map presence for ganks. He has had minor touches since season 3. Here is the last description in 5.24 about his changes: "Like slow creeping fungus, Twisted Fate’s been an under-the-table force for a while and it’s not hard to see why. Unparalleled map presence and point-click stuns reign supreme when it comes to securing leads, and there’s no better time like preseason to take advantage of the chaos. Lowering TF’s mid-game spike and waveclear should buy teams enough time to withstand his pressure game while mounting a response."

So, that decreased mid-game spike they were talking about? Q - Wild Cards MAGIC DAMAGE : 60/110/160/210/260 ⇒ 60/105/150/195/240

ForeverLaxx3 votes

I always did like how Riot would spend an entire paragraph explaining the "problem" as they see it, then hitting an unrelated ability to said "problem" in a manner that doesn't even noticeably affect that champion.

Slamurai Jack7 votes

{quoted}

i wish you used more examples than just Lee Sin. Makes it sound like a QQ thread

That's because it is a QQ thread. You wanna know how I know? Because they always go for Sejuani. Always. She's like their poster girl for champions that get undeservedly gutted. There's only 1 problem with that though; Sejuani is actually pretty good right now. I've been playing her a bunch during the preseason and I'm 36-17 (68%) so far. I played Sejuani maybe 10 times before this. If I, basically a new Sejuani player, can come in and dominate this hard in Diamond elo, then she can't be that bad.

Yuri By Mail13 votes

We don't care what you think, he provided Riot's quote on actually neglecting her just so that she cannot take any spotlight back.

It's literally favoritism, and possibly a hilarious metaphor for Riot racism amongst the champion pool.

Slamurai Jack6 votes

All he said was that they aren't going to immediately throw buffs at her just because she's no longer top tier. Anyone willing to read it honestly can see that. And no, don't come in and retort with "but they immediately buff Lee Sin top tier LC$ big plays!", because he hasn't been top tier in a very long time, even with the recent buff. Hell, he hasn't even been favored in LCS play in over a year; Elise, Rek'sai, and Gragas were the dominant jungle picks for season 5, not Lee Sin. And in Solo Q, no jungler approached the level of dominance that Sejuani had for more than a single patch, and she managed it for a solid 2 months.

Yuri By Mail11 votes

Literally quoted word for word to keep her out of the spotlight. Literally. Word. For. Word.

Lee Sin aside, Sejuani was an obvious double-dip of nerfs that they will not correct because they said so. Not because they're looking at other ways to fix her, but because they did not want her in the spotlight.

Quoted word. For. word.

Go back to shill school and come back when you can actually bait your hooks.

YCitizenSnipsY5 votes

They actually nerfeed Sejuani because she had an 80% ban rate in ranked, something Lee Sin has never come close to. People didn't want to play against her becasue she was unbalanced, has nothing to do with favoritism or "LCSBIGPLAYS."

Tyaldan3 votes

Yeah for a while there she was all you would see in solo queue, and blind pick. Sejuanis on both teams. Shes amazing now, our mostly health jg sej got a penta kill the other day. Much like the veigar "nerfs" true mains didnt let it get them down, and still do amazing shit with the champ.

Yuri By Mail3 votes

It's the intention of Riot that maters though. We're grateful the metagame favors bulky junglers and carry toplaners which lets Sejuani become useful without buffs, but they had absolutely no intention of compensating her had the meta not changed.

Quepha4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=agsboEph,comment-id=0000000300000000,timestamp=2015-12-29T10:58:35.728+0000)

All he said was that they aren't going to immediately throw buffs at her just because she's no longer top tier.

That's literally what happens to Zed. They give him big buffs in a patch and justify it with "He's still performing pretty well in the competitive scene but we thought of a buff for him so we'll throw it in anyways"

SaltyKracka12 votes

Wow, so dumpstered.

So absolutely gutted.

My god, he's only got a 52% winrate.

affectioned7 votes

I know right? I have no clue what OP is talking about not being able to clear jg. Both Sion and Sej do alright in their first clear, with Sion being better cause of his W sustain. Seems like a bit of a overreaction to me.

Catastrop3 votes

With playrates of .41% and 1.25% respectively.

Champion Skin3 votes

Well he does have an rather low pick rate... and low pick rate generally gives a higher win rate (because most of the people who then use Sion is more experienced on him or he is picked into favorable situations)

CoolHandJack11 votes

I am a low skill level player, so I won't pretend to understand how hard their job actually is, but it does feel like the entire philosophy of the balance team needs to change. I really dislike this "champions take a turn in the spotlight!" balance choice, and leaving champions gutted for sometimes YEARS on end is just inexcusable.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I concur, their concept of balance is a flawed premise by design. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Leadpaintchips2 votes

I like the basic idea of "Imperfect balance", where there's always a counter matchup to all champions, and it doesn't need to be balanced on a knife edge. The downside is that Riot doesn't have this down, so that there's champs that will always be strong regardless of what you throw against them. I don't want a GG champ, but I don't want matchups that auto lose you the lane/game. It's a tough act to do, and we as a game are still trying to figure it out.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I agree, I don't mind imbalance if each champions has a few counters, but riot doesn't know how to do that. That's why I don't play nearly as much as I used to, they nerf&buff on a knee-jerk reaction without thought about how it'll stilt the game; not to mention they've been purposely removing alternative play-styles over the past few years.

Leadpaintchips2 votes

It's one of the reasons why I'm just playing bots when I do play, because I don't know when they are going to gut my champions, or rework them, or make it so that I have to learn the whole game again. . . .

Sluiceway10 votes

The thing about Lee Sin's high still cap is it only exists if you play, or try to play, him the way you see in the LCS/challenger games: as a ward-hopping gank machine. Most people I run into just go full damage, be it jungle, mid, top, whatever, and just beat the hell out of everyone on the other team. I got interested in him for precisely this reason (also the reason I started playing Rumble), because I listened to the hype about how high a skill cap he has, so I was intimidated by even trying him out until I saw other people at my skill level playing him and doing well, so I though, "If they can do it, so can I." As long as you can land your Sonic Wave (and how hard are skill shots, really?) you will do well on him, unless you go the hard route by building a sight stone and trying to use wards to make flashy plays, then most people will fail. So, played the fancy way, yes, Lee has a high skill cap, but played in the straightforward brawler/assassin style he is one of the easiest champs in the game.

P.S. I got bored of him pretty quick as a result of his generic simplicity, but I still love Rumble and am glad I got over the intimidating hype that surrounded him at his peak (back when C9's Balls played him every game he could, ususally with a J4 or Elise in the jungle, and won every dragon fight except three, i think).

BluePolarizer15 votes

You don't even need to go full damage. You can get hybrid items and be tanky while still killing shit.

item 1408 item 3748 item 3071 item 3047 item 3156 item 3742 is amazing damage, decently tanky and still extremely mobile.

LankPants5 votes

Just to add to this, you can go item 1408 > item 3074 for early damage then swap the hydra when you need to with no penalties, because that was a great idea.

Kaeblen2 votes

that swap option is amazing. honestly though, item 3748 was a huge buff to LeeSin overall

Champion Skin3 votes

Well yeah... damage wise Lee sin is really simple... Q + Q + E (you should be able to land this with the Q gap closer) + R (Ult can also be used before the seconds Q to make the second Q cast deal more damage and reduce possibilities to mess up and saving the enemy with ult)

And you can even use W/E first to get in a better position or slow the enemy to make Q easier to land

Sluiceway2 votes

I think that is what makes Lee Sin so hard to balance, there are essentially two of him: the sightstone Insec kick style who falls off late game and who has a high skill cap, and who is basically balanced, and the Lee Sin the rest of us play as, with, or against, the Hydra (either one) building item 1408 item 3748 item 3071 item 3047 item 3156 item 3742 , to borrow BluePolarizer's build, that combines damage, durability, and mobility while removing the late game falloff of the Insec kick version.

On the other hand, I think there are times when Riot is blamed for things that are not really their fault at all. There are times when a token change that the rest of us take in stride (such as J4 losing the passive armor from Demacian Standard or Draven losing the bleed passive in favor of Adoration stacks) that prompts LCS/challenger players to consider this once top tier champion now trash. There have been some good defenses of Sejuani in this thread in particular, and this all leads me to wonder if the LCS/challeger players are too quick to abandon champions and Riot takes the blame for that.

TheI3igDaddy10 votes

Daily reminder that Riot doesn't give a shit about balance as long as they're making money.

Leu079 votes

I just can't believe you did not mention Cassiopeia Cassiopeia item 3070

Cherysse5 votes

True

TheDevice4 votes

Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox Aatrox

Where the design team and the balance team just gave up.

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