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Can we make easy, utility based, teamfight-oriented champs more appealing?

Sherogarth··26 votes·1,937 views

Disclaimer: in this post im calling every light armored / mobile / snowbally / killing machine / without tons of cc an assassin (except for adc's) so Riven, Zed, Yasuo, Yi, Kata and so on are all assassins for me.

As a support main, in gold/silver elo, I'm really tired of people picking assassins at top, mid and jungle at the same time and then wondering why we are loosing every teamfight without a tank and cc. (tanky support =/= full tank)

I understand that "assassins are so fun to play" but maybe they are too fun compared to other picks. To the point that even if there is no reason to pick an assassin (ex. picking yasuo when malphite and rammus are already picked in enemy team) they are still a go to pick in every situation for many people. Also im sorry to say that but assassin mains are usually the most toxic players in game (thats probably because playing them is more stressful due to all that split-second decisions and dependency on kills).

So what can we do to make other pick as appealing for players as assassins? There are 3 ways imo:

  1. Nerf fun parts in assassins to the ground. (Bad idea)
  2. Make them more of a niche pick. (I'm almost sure that this is what Riot wants to do in assassin update. But imo it wont stop people from picking "dem badass champs" every game)
  3. Make other pick more appealing. How to do this, you ask? In fact I have no idea :D.

After few months champs updated in Mid Year Mage Update are already forgotten or at last thats my feeling when I look at my mid/top lane. Wasnt main goal of MYMU to make them more fun to play?

What are yours opinions on this topic? Do you agree or disagree with me? Maybe you have some ideas how to make other pick more appealing?

59 Comments

BastionKross15 votes

This whole thread boils down to "Why no 1 pick tankz?".

I'll tell you why. It is the same reason the vast majority of players don't like supporting; high indirect carry potential, low direct carry potential. Tanks are meant to lead the charge into a teamfight, disrupt the enemy team, and tank the resulting damage for a long time. They peel for the carry if they can't initiate.

None of those things scream PENTAKILL. Well, at least not for the tank himself.

Barring getting fed or doing a cheesy off-build like full AP, if I'm Malphite and initiate with my ult and tank like a god for 3-5 seconds (because that's all you're going to tank in season 6 thanks to increased damage across the board) and basically serve the enemy team up on a silver platter for my team... only to have none of them go in, I'm screwed. I have nothing to show for my brilliant efforts but another death on the scoreboard and a long CD on my ult.

The job of a tank is to create opportunities for the carries to carry. A lot like a support does for the marksman. Unfortunately, most players aren't here to watch someone else carry, or at the very least don't trust someone else on their team to carry for them.

When you're the carry, the majority of the agency of winning or losing a teamfight is directly on you. Your destiny (and the rest of the team's destiny) is in your hands. Most of the time you can't get that high level of agency playing a tank or a support. You can lockdown the enemy assassin in a teamfight for ten straight minutes, but if the marksman is more interested in killing Rammus and gets destroyed there's nothing you can do.

That's why juggernauts (and assassins built like juggernauts) are so popular, they have high carry potential and are beefy like a tank without having to play like one. Who cares if the rest of your team got slaughtered? You just dunked four of the enemy team as Darius and won that teamfight almost all on your own. Why tank for your team when you can tank for someone you trust to carry, yourself.

Ralanr3 votes

{quoted}

This whole thread boils down to "Why no 1 pick tankz?".

I'll tell you why. It is the same reason the vast majority of players don't like supporting; high indirect carry potential, low direct carry potential. Tanks are meant to lead the charge into a teamfight, disrupt the enemy team, and tank the resulting damage for a long time. They peel for the carry if they can't initiate.

None of those things scream PENTAKILL. Well, at least not for the tank himself.

Barring getting fed or doing a cheesy off-build like full AP, if I'm Malphite and initiate with my ult and tank like a god for 3-5 seconds (because that's all you're going to tank in season 6 thanks to increased damage across the board) and basically serve the enemy team up on a silver platter for my team... only to have none of them go in, I'm screwed. I have nothing to show for my brilliant efforts but another death on the scoreboard and a long CD on my ult.

The job of a tank is to create opportunities for the carries to carry. A lot like a support does for the marksman. Unfortunately, most players aren't here to watch someone else carry, or at the very least don't trust someone else on their team to carry for them.

When you're the carry, the majority of the agency of winning or losing a teamfight is directly on you. Your destiny (and the rest of the team's destiny) is in your hands. Most of the time you can't get that high level of agency playing a tank or a support. You can lockdown the enemy assassin in a teamfight for ten straight minutes, but if the marksman is more interested in killing Rammus and gets destroyed there's nothing you can do.

That's why juggernauts (and assassins built like juggernauts) are so popular, they have high carry potential and are beefy like a tank without having to play like one. Who cares if the rest of your team got slaughtered? You just dunked four of the enemy team as Darius and won that teamfight almost all on your own. Why tank for your team when you can tank for someone you trust to carry, yourself.

http://ci.memecdn.com/944/5002944.jpg

Well I really can't disagree with you there. Though my only issue with juggernauts is the lack of lockdown (I hate when people run away from me) which is probably why I like Yorick because he has actual lockdown.

Tanks are incredibly team orientated. Sure we can maybe kill a squishy ADC or mage if they play horribly, but we do not have the damage potential to fight a whole team, we rely on our team for that.

Worst is that I think a lot of people don't understand this. One day I was doing very well as full tank Sion (my favorite Sion) and the enemy Illaoi said I was missing one item that would make me unstoppable. In the end she told me it was Titanic Hydra.

I replied, "Why would I need more damage? I have my team for that."

Honestly I'm shocked that people don't consider this. Tanks need you like you need them. We aren't your domesticated attack/guard dogs that follow your every command. We're the wolf that makes the first bite, the one who actively goes out to take the brunt of it so you can abuse the opening.

If supports are team moms, then top/jungle tanks are team dads.

BastionKross3 votes

Though my only issue with juggernauts is the lack of lockdown (I hate when people run away from me) which is probably why I like Yorick because he has actual lockdown.

That's true. People have found that champions with actual lockdown/mobility and high damage built like bruisers (Yasuo, Ekko) are basically juggernauts without the weakness of "Hey, come back here!" that actual juggernauts posses. Although in lower elos, the lack or warding and proper kiting skills make juggernauts much more viable. To be fair though, in higher elos if someone picks a juggernaut there's a higher chance a teammate will pick around them with a champ that has CC.

If supports are team moms, then top/jungle tanks are team dads.

With the rest of the team being the brooding teenagers who thinks the world revolves around them while completely disregarding everything mom and dad do to make them successful. There's nothing Riot can do to fix that mindset, that only comes with maturity on the side of the player. Asking the entire LoL fanbase to mature is like asking the rain not to fall, so the best solution is to play as part of a group that understands and values your contributions to a team. This is far from a perfect solution however, as some players just don't have the time and/or will to be part of a premade all the time.

Something that is in Riot's control however is how tanky tanks are tanking. I started this game back in season 3, so I don't have firsthand experience of anything before that (although I hear tanks were tanky like a mofo back then too). But in seasons 3 and 4 a tank champ that put all his gold into tank items and that had tank runes and tank masteries was practically unkillable by anyone not wielding a Last Whisper. And that made tanks worth playing. So what if you weren't killing everyone? As long as the ADC was autoing someone else, you might as well have had three lifebars. It was fun dancing through the team and taking chip damage from assassins, burst mages, fighters, bruisers, and other tanks. It made you feel strong without giving you damage.

Season 5 had tanks start to slip from this state, but they were saved by cinderhulk. Then Riot nerfed the hell out of cinderhulk and buffed the damage everyone was doing with the new masteries, and we have season 6. Tanks can still be tanky in season 6, but they are far from the brick walls they were in past seasons. Now if I play a tank that puts all his gold into tank items and has tank runes and tank masteries, I might live an extra three or four seconds in a teamfight.

How unsatisfying.

Varus Vindicator2 votes

"top... tanks are team dads" Is that why top's never around?

Ralanr2 votes

It's not our fault Riot nerfed teleport! Now we need to work harder to see our kids!

Varus Vindicator2 votes

i really hate that nerf... it makes ashe ult from base-->TP self gank nearly impossible :<

SmileInABox2 votes

I personally love Malphite because of how he can turn a whole teamfight around, but also because every solo kill feels like a solid outplay. He doesn't get a lot of kills, but the kills he gets feel soooo satisfying.

Ralanr5 votes

Malphite is the one tank that I find incredibly boring.

Probably the lack of hard CC on everything except his ult.

Saianna1 votes

I swear I read the same post like 4 years ago!

Is it a copy-paste or what @_@

(not that it's wrong)

BastionKross1 votes

I just typed it up today. Tanks not having agency is nothing new to League, so I'm sure someone has pointed it out long before I did now. The issue is that tanks used to be damage sponges so that helped to cover up their lack of ability to carry. With tanks losing some of the ability to absorb pain, people are starting to see the weaknesses of playing tanks in League.

SlashStriker4 votes

How to make support more Appealing

Play Heroes of the Storm and you will do more than being just a support.

Ralanr3 votes

That's one intention of a roster update I believe, since it takes champions that are very similar (for the ADC update they tried to make them unique because they all kinda did the same thing and weren't different enough to really not consider taking the stronger option. Now we have Graves jungle).

It's actually why I'm hoping for a midseason vanguard (tank) update in the next midseason. As much as I like tanks, I won't deny that many of them have trouble being unique over each other and you'll end up picking the most reliable one when tanks are strong.

I'd imagine that the champions for a vanguard update would be: Malphite, Amumu, Rek'sai (because at this point they might as well market her as a tank) and Skarner.

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

Leona and Nautilus

Ralanr1 votes

I don't know. They have pretty solid kits.

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

Well, I thought Vel'Koz was fine too and look what happened to him.

Of course, 800 (+125% AP) true damage is fun too.

Handin Out Naps2 votes

Winning games is appealing. Assassins are trash right now.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

As they should be.

Handin Out Naps3 votes

Easy to say when your favorite champion has had a +50% wr for almost 2 seasons huh? No champions deserve to be trash except for champions like Azir and Eve.

BIH Diamond1 votes

Silver/gold players are braindead as you can see on these boards

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Yes with my ~30 ranked games this season totally accurately indicating my skill level, not like I'm frequently matched with high gold-low plat because of my normals MMR. Not that those ranks mean much either.

BIH Diamond1 votes

  1. Low elo player --- Check

  2. Has a shitty excuse for his elo ---- Check

  3. Complaining about assassins on the boards --- Check

  4. Brings up normal games as if they mean anything ---- Check

Standard low elo player

The reason you have 30 games this season is because you're scared to play ranked. I've had many friends who say this. "I'm silver but I barely play"

Then when they finally decide to play it turns out they're not as good as they thought.

And when i play normals, it's only to try new champs. You getting matched with plats means nothing. Standard silver player mentality in normals though

NineTailedMystic1 votes

  1. Arrogant 'high' elo player -- Check

  2. Condescending to 'low' elo players -- Check

  3. Thinks all 'low' elo players think Assassins are OP -- Check

  4. Thinks Normals are worthless -- Check

Standard 'high' ELO player.

You're gold 1, pretty sure that's not 'high' ELO.

I wouldn't say scared per se, just too stressful since I get salty real easy. Although its nice that I have a 59% WR despite the small sample size and get ~25 LP per win.

I don't see what's wrong with complaining about Assassins either. I just hate playing against them regardless if they're OP or not, I'm sure you have champions you hate playing against too.

Also, would you rather have a fresh level 30 with the bare minimum of champions in your ranked game, or a guy who only played normals for over a year with 1500 games under their belt?

BIH Diamond1 votes

You're gold 1, pretty sure that's not 'high' ELO.

It doesn't take a genius to look at my stats. This was a mess around smurf. I got it to plat 3 and stopped playing on it. Last time played on it was 5months ago.

I don't see what's wrong with complaining about Assassins either. I just hate playing against them regardless if they're OP or not, I'm sure you have champions you hate playing against too.

Because an adc builds assassin items and does this to you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk5yTdCYEYU

and it's considered balance. But when an assassin does it (their job) it's bs

Also, would you rather have a fresh level 30 with the bare minimum of champions in your ranked game, or a guy who only played normals for over a year with 1500 games under their belt?

Same shit

NineTailedMystic1 votes

I don't care how strong Ahri is, I play her because she's Ahri as I'm sure you play Zed because he's Zed. She could be Azir/Kalista dumpstered and I'd play her.

notmebuthim2 votes

Real "assassins" are fun, but pretty shitty unless they steam rolled in lane. Master yi is pretty dumb though with his ult, and fuck Riven.

OurLestrade1 votes

Literally all supports need in my books to make them more appealing to people that don't play them is some sort of reliable mobility move. The basis of 90% of those MLG dubstep assassin montages is doing cool things with dashes and blinks, and outside Braum's W on allies there isn't really a proper equivalent for supports.

Sherogarth1 votes

there is one - Thresh, but i see your point.

A Liberal2 votes

Thresh mains rustle my jimmies

Varus Vindicator1 votes

i really wish i could top/jungle thresh viably.

StarlingSweet1 votes

Lvl 7 thresh here, eat your heart out :3

zlumpy5 votes

Actually this is what I kinda hate most about LoL right now. There is just way too much need for mobility because every new champ gets more mobility.

If they had never given us flash at the very beginning of the game this probably never would have been a problem. Oh well lessons learned nothing to be done about it now.

Ralanr6 votes

Honestly I think we need more grounded abilities.

zlumpy3 votes

That or give back targeted cc limited mobility champs as they were the natural counter to the high mobility outplay champs. I'm not hating on skill shots but when everything is becoming skill shots it kinda creates balance problems especially for champs designed during the periods where there wasn't as large a number of skillshot/mobility moves.

Ralanr2 votes

Targeted CC is unfair though (not supporting all the mobility) because you can really avoid it. Mobility while annoying, can allow the user to make very big mistakes as well as big outplays.

I just feel having more grounded would be good because it still allows for someone to fight back, its actually more fair than targeted CC.

Note: when I say targeted, I mean like Taric's old stun.

LSmaster161 votes

What about some sort of point and click effect that cc's the target if a certain condition is met; such as dashing, moving a certain distance, dealing x amount of damage?

Ralanr1 votes

You mean Poppy's W?

CookyPrince1 votes

Or her E where she stuns on walls

LSmaster161 votes

Sort of, probably something along the lines of cursing a target and the curse stuns them if they meet a certain condition.

Ralanr1 votes

I once thought of something like that with Morde. Basically he plants shrapnel in your body that hurts the more you move from him (for the duration obviously).

Thematically it's because he's pulling the shards back with magnetism.

zlumpy1 votes

That would be the bloodthirster ult from dota :p

Atanchan1 votes

Bloodseeker, actually.

LSmaster16's ideas are actually really close to how Silencer's main abilities work. Both react to the target( s ) casting the spell, with Last Word being a delayed nuke + silence that goes off immediately upon spell cast and Arcane Curse being a long DoT + slow that has its duration extended upon spell cast.

There was a short period time after he was given Arcane Curse ( replacing his Curse of the Silent ... which was the exact opposite, a DoT + mana burn over time that was removed upon spell cast. Yeah, I never understood it either ) where people who didn't read the patch notes were a pretty humorous occurrence, because they would constantly cast spells to try and remove the curse and end up extending it to the point where they had to sit in the fountain or ( the more typical outcome ) die from the ridiculous amount of DoT they built up.

zlumpy1 votes

Curses! Your right. Damn you LoL and your similar named item!

Also I remember how not knowing what a dota skill did could severly screw you. I ran from so many bloodseekers when I first started Dota.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

Targeted CC punishes immobiles more than mobile champions.

A Liberal2 votes

They REALLLLLLY need to make supports the next class update. Make them flashy and appealing to people so someone will finally play the role. (Support main here, and I play Morgana Soraka Janna and Bard mostly so don't think I'm some Thresh Lcsbigplays fan either)

Ralanr1 votes

I still want tanks next.

OurLestrade3 votes

The Taric rework's the epitome of what's wrong to me. One delayed skill shot, and three skills that you can't aim. Your montage making plays are "landing a stun" and "timing a good ult". I was disappointed with him to put it lightly :P

inplane1 votes

I loved using Taliyah as a Utility Support more than anything back when she was released. Don't get me wrong. I still kind of like using her as a Utility Support after patch 6.14, but she has lost so much power Utility-wise all for shove & roam power. She isn't very effective against MR-building bruisers such as Yasuo and Graves anymore because of the 15% falloff damage on her E, which was made to punish gapcloser-dependent champs like those two. She also lost utility on W from the lazy cast paradigm change, forcing me to occasionally kill my ADC because I knocked a Galio too close. Knocking to the side would kill my other teammates and knocking away would help him escape.

Making Utility champs more appealing is hard because people like exploding one another with a full E Z bake combo. Giving utility and easily accessible damage at the same time is usually not a good idea. Of course not everyone thrives on seeing another person die in half a second, but it's just how it is.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Yasuo doesn't really build mr until his 3rd or 4th item lol

inplane1 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo doesn't really build mr until his 3rd or 4th item lol

His passive is also there to soak up damage. Most of the time, people are going to build against their lane and they should if they're not going to roam as often. Getting a Maw as second or third item is more than enough to screw over Taliyah's laning.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

It isn't going to do shit if you pop if with an auto before going ham really.

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