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@Riot It's funny how fast you come up with these support changes

GayFluffyUnicorn··88 votes·4,385 views

No resource is enough to give roles more impact and "meaningful" choices without breaking a sweat as long as it is not toplane.

At this point you are literally just playing with us, aren't you? No keystone, no tp buffs, no small gold cost adjustment to help toplaners impact the game earlier, no jungle nerfs, no nerfs to botlane powercurves. There are so many small things you could immediately do to help making toplane more impactful aaand you stay silent and go over to work on support role.

Atleast challengers can now duoQ so that the entire top 10 highest challenger only consist of adc and support player. I don't know RIOT what you are trying to do or what your goals are. So much about more transparency you promised after the DynQ disaster. Are you still atleast THINKING about making toplane more impactful and help fighters in particular? Or is it another "we rework fighters" in hopes that we just shut up and stop complaining because EVENTUALLY something might maybe happen sometime in the future in another dimension or parallel universe?

Since i don't want to be a pesky board troll i also have a suggestion for another Login Screen:

Images of Jax, Irelia, Aatrox with a chain collar around their neck with foam coming out of their mouths and a red circle with a red line through their faces subtitled: "Must stay out!" floating above an image of Toplane.

Edit: Because i already saw that: Could u guys please not randomly upvote or downvote people for differing opinions? Can we please stop with this shit? Thank you.

169 Comments

Ahristocats15 votes

i would rather see TP removed instead of buffed

i'm still waiting for that "grasp rework" of riot to buff bruisers

GayFluffyUnicorn20 votes

But how do you expect toplaners to do anything at all then? To impact the map? Take ignite, try to snowball as hard as possible and steamroll the enemy? Naturally toplaners play around the sidelanes on the complete opposite of the map so how are we expected to have an impact then? What are your thoughts ? Adjust playstyle to more 5v5s in the midgame? Or rather less toplaners in general but more fighters who do this.

Hm the first iteration i saw seemed extremely scary on juggernauts in lane which would make them probably autowin lane while not helping them in teamfights at all but i could be wrong here too.

Ahristocats12 votes

{quoted}

But how do you expect toplaners to do anything at all then? To impact the map? Take ignite, try to snowball as hard as possible and steamroll the enemy?

exactly, go back to the old days of skilled 1v1

remove teleport buff toplaners impact like how it should be

reduce triforce cost from 3700 to 3500 tiamat items from 3500 to 3300 sterak from 3200 to 3000

Hm the first iteration i saw seemed extremely scary on juggernauts in lane which would make them probably autowin lane while not helping them in teamfights at all but i could be wrong here too.

i don't know man, i'm not really a "class type" main tho i have a thing for darius

i just want my season 3 toplane back https://i.gyazo.com/5734fa1253fd93fc1b6d744670dd55f8.png

i want top lane to FEEL like youcan carry a game i want this skilled 1v1 to be back, where winning lane requiered so much calculations

i want top lane bruisers to be scarry once again, be it juggernauts, jax, renekton, whoever it is without abusing gimicky shit like klepto or comet

but that won't happen, riot is busy buffing supports

GayFluffyUnicorn16 votes

Don't know what more i could say i agree with everything you said. I especially like your cost suggestions, they seem pretty reasonable.

i don't know man, i'm not really a "class type" main tho i have a thing for darius

Me neither, i don't think GP fits any toplane category but i want to go back to clap rivens, fioras, jax, irelias with thunderlords instead of being reduced to a Q bot praying to RNGesus i get some gold or potions.

You seem pretty versatile in your champ pool pretty much like me in that regard, helps to see things from a different perspective.

i want top lane to FEEL like youcan carry a game i want this skilled 1v1 to be back, where winning lane requiered so much calculations

i want top lane bruisers to be scarry once again, be it juggernauts, jax, renekton, whoever it is without abusing gimicky shit like klepto or comet

but that won't happen, riot is busy buffing supports

Fucking exactly. Nailed it.

kargish10 votes

Alright so out of curiosity, the original comment gets downvoted, then the OP comment agrees with that comment and gets upvoted? Huh?

Limid3 votes

A lot of people here hate rubick so much so that every day they go on to his boards profile and down vote on everything he's said, that they haven't down voted already. Pretty pathetic to be honest.

Votable Jester2 votes

I personally just upvoted the OP's comment because of what he said about GP becoming a Q bot and praying to RNGesus. I enjoyed playing GP last season, but haven't touched him since. I'm just not a fan of Kleptomancy in general.

Kairoptra1 votes

Grasp rework was scrapped, they're looking to just make a fourth Resolve keystone.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Yeah but why resolve? See what i mean? Riot is just making fun of us. It must be either precision or one of the damaging trees or give us the possibility to completely edit our base stats on our own. Fighter don't want the resolve tree most of the time, maximum secondary for some additional "beefyness".

Ralanr6 votes

Because Melee champions need to be more durable than everyone else if they want to last long in a fight imo.

Ahristocats4 votes

fighters are all exceptionally good laners and used to have the upper hand on tanks during laning phase

the resolve tree makes you tankier, but doesn't give you lane pressure

Ralanr1 votes

But don’t fighters already have lane pressure on their own that they lose because they’ve become squishy?

Ahristocats2 votes

Not now at least

Ornn,maokai, shen, they can outtrade them with grasp because we all lost 12 magic resistance, and they deal magic damage+grasp magic damage Sion and malphite can abuse comet and outlane them by poking with scorch and mana flow band, and deal more damage than before because again we all lost magic resistance

you have no way to win lane as a bruiser and if you don't win lane you lose game because tanks have better teamfighting

if you look at win rates, the only one who wasn't buffed was poppy because she deals physical damage

getting tankier with resolve won't help you to win lane and you can't win lane alone to begin with so you lose the game because in teamfight you're useless

the only way you manage to be relevant, is with kleptomancy by getting so much gold

Ralanr1 votes

So wait, because fighters lost durability they are weaker, but gaining more durability won’t fix the problem?

Ahristocats3 votes

they didn't only lose durability and beside, +6 mr =/=+12 mr

they lost fervor, which was a huge amount of power they lost 8% total armor pen

tanks did not lose as much power grasp was even buffed

Daedric Etwahl11 votes

Honestly as a support main I really hate the sound of these changes.

Like sure we get our items 400g faster, but completely removing four unique items, as well as the quest reward passives? Sounds awful to me, honestly.

Hibeki3 votes

I think the quest rewards removed are ok, as laners were starting to abuse these.

All three support items are seeing play outside of support (Ancient coin spammed top, Relic Shield spammed adc, Spellthiefs on mid) because of these abused rewards and bandit.

I think these items are absolutely do for a rework, but this may not be the right direction

Daedric Etwahl7 votes

I hate that us ACTUAL support players have to suffer because other roles an't keep their hands off our items.

I don't understand how these changes benefit supports in ANY way that doesn't also work out for item poachers.

Like, these changes feel so hamfisted, like they're catering to the autofilled support players bitching about having to.buy Sightstone. Dedicated support player for 2 years and going, I've had zero issue buying it.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Tbh it's less these items being too stronk and more riot fucking the game up.

We also told riot beforehand that ancient coint needs a nerf and not the other items buffs. But wonderful and all knowing riot live design didn't give a fuck. Now toplaner try everything to get their items faster so they can keep up with the pace of the game. It's not the supporters nor their items fault that riot fucked up the pace of the game and the powercurves of different classes.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

They said that they're probably going to put the actives on item 3092 and item 3069 on new items (Maybe they'll return Twin Shadows?).

Also, you need to think about what it means to not have to buy Sighstone in terms of lane. A lot of support items go unused because by the time we can buy them we've reached mid game and we need to prioritize the items that give teamwide benefits rather than benefits to just us and our ADC.

Redemption and Locket are go to items because they are teamwide effects, they are also defensive items because once people start grouping up the amount of damage that can be pumped onto one target goes way up thanks to having 4 or 5 people dealing damage. By the time you can rush an offensive support item it doesn't increase the damage of a carry enough to outweigh the benefit of the defensive item (Aside from when Ardent was broken).

But if we can buy specific items of our own choosing earlier in the game then we could see supports building items that give them and their ADC a powerspike in the next fight that happens in bot lane, or build an item that could help stave off a potential snowball.

I for one am quietly optimistic about this change.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Yes please give adcs more powerspikes. That's exactly the reason i want riot to not work on supports right now. ADCs as a whole need a nerf already.

AMYS GRAVE10 votes

Coming from a support main, be thankful they aren't fucking with your lane.

ChaddyFantome8 votes

{quoted}

Coming from a support main, be thankful they aren't fucking with your lane.

Amen. These changes are terrible.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

At this point i probably have to, eh?

NocturnalSheild8 votes

What do you toplaners actually want?

Do you want to be strong enough to 1v2 an adc and support?

Like what do you mean as strong as an adc?

GayFluffyUnicorn21 votes

It's actually pretty easy: We want impact as toplaners.

Right now it is pretty fucking impossible to carry a game as a toplaner if you not happen to have a botlane that wards and you find an opportunity to tp botlane or make several ganks happen in midlane. I often find myself 3/0 sitting behind my turret while the enemy botlane just whacks at my tower and there is nothing i can do as a trinity camille who should actually be fucking scary, you can swap out camille for jax, aatrox, fiora doesn't matter.

Even when you play tank there is only so little you can do to actually do something, that's why im talking about toplane impact in general even including these fucking tanks.

As a fighter in particular you are expected to win lane to have an impact and riot leaves several no counterplay autowin lane champs untouched only being picked to cockblock you and winning the game because their botlane won.

And before i lose myself in my thoughts i'm going to answer your question: In an ideal world? Yes. In an ideal world unless getting outplayed i should ATLEAST have the possibility to 1v2. Now i often find myself unable to 1v1 an adc because that tabi, phage, sheen bruiser isnt too scary for a bf sword, boots, shiv adc.

But it would be enough to have lower costing items to get your powerspikes sooner, reduce the TP channel time by a second again so i can actually help on the map before the entire fight is over and i find myself bubbled, rooted, stunned, trapped.

So no 1v2 is not necessary, the biggest problem is the complete lack of impact from toplane in general and in particular from fighter.

NocturnalSheild16 votes

The problem is leauge already has a dedicated damage dealer. The adc.

For melee to EVER be as strong as the dedicated damage dealer which LITERALLY has a full time babysitter amd are ranged .they either need to be oppressively strong or adc need to be nerfed into unviability.

You cant have equal melees AND equal range champions without a turning rate like dota 2 or making all range champions 300 ms and all melee 320 ms with ZERO ways to increase speed ala HoTS

The top laner power fantasy of a tryn walking into the support/adc and killing both of them is not only impossible i argue its bad for the game.

Its always top laners that want supports to be nothing more than walking ward bags.

Every time supports get tools to protect people i swear its always the top laners than whine the loudest about not being able to 1v5 on jax anymore.

Why is it that top laners are so anti support?

Should we just remove the 5th player entirelly and make the game a 4v4?

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Turn rates do nothing but make the game clunky imo, as much as I hate that word.

TheThundersRoar2 votes

Turn rates mean ranged heroes are much less effective at kiting. If you want to have the major DPS advantage that is range, you have to position correctly to ensure your safety while you do damage. If someones overcomes the peel and reaches you, and you're building pure DPS, it's only fair that you must stop dealing damage while you run.

It does feel clunky. You're right. But it's a stroke of genius when it comes to ranged/melee balance.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

It's not a stroke of genius when I want to kms whenever I fucking turn. With my small stint with Dota I mostly played Omniknight who has one of the fastest turn speeds iirc, I didn't notice much except when I had to dodge shit. It was cancer trying to dodge Jakiro with a turn rate.

TheThundersRoar3 votes

I agree, it feels like a shit. A lot of things in Dota don't feel fun. That's why I eventually came back to League.

But the players who don't mind these mechanics get to play a game that is objectively much, much better balanced than League.

NocturnalSheild2 votes

Sadly though its pretty much the best idea anyones ever had when it comes to balancing ranged vs melee.

Without turn rates melees need to be able to completely ignore not only the adcs cc AND movement abilitys but ALSO the supports CC.

Which means they need to be overtuned to the point they can easily kill 2 people.

Which to me doesnt seem very balanced.

Ranged AND melee will NEVER be EQUALLY balanced without massive system changes.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Maybe you should start playing toplane and realise why we hate fucking botlane? Do you think it's legimitately fun or GOOD or HEALTHY for the game that one point and click button completely destroys you and takes you out of the game? (looking at you polymorph). We already had a rather healthy botlane toplane powercurve in the game. ADCs don't need to get gutted or whatever fantasy you guys THINK we have. They simply need to get nerfed. Nothing more that helps a lot. Midgame is for the fighter, lategame is for the marksmen and lategame scaling fighers like camille or mages who scale well. Thing is marksmen are overpowered early mid and lategame. All while being protected by a support. Riot should have made adcs stronger and leave supports as they were or buffed supports to be more protective. Riot did both and now we have unkillable rightclickers killing everything in their way with not much counterplay besides "flash on them and hope you blow them up". ADCs simply cannot be strong early game when they are supposed to scale into these threeshotting shitfaces. But as i said, right now BF and shiv lets them sit under my turret and bully me out because of the insane fucking dmg.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

You cant have equal melees AND equal range champions without a turning rate like dota 2 or making all range champions 300 ms and all melee 320 ms with ZERO ways to increase speed ala HoTS

We can start by remove all the ms in crit item.

Every time supports get tools to protect people i swear its always the top laners than whine the loudest about not being able to 1v5 on jax anymore.

liar.

Why is it that top laners are so anti support?

???

General Esdeath 2 votes

I think OP means he'd rather not get Ornn buffed because Riven can outplay him and then have the entire bruiser class gutted.

We want fervor back, we want a buff to TP that lets us get a shorter CD when used on TOWERS so we can safely farm up and not be punished for, not shockingly, the LCS (an organized team match) abusing it.

We could reduce the cost of bruiser items, like they did with marksman items.

We could do so much, but Riot doesn't want to for some odd reason.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Pretty much yeah.

Dunno riot just hates toplane. There is no other explanation.They also hate tanks but they figured rather tank meatbags than fighter who can kill their glorious marksmen.

Bronze 6 Yasuo6 votes

I always do well in support roles and end up with scores like 2/6/20 and sometimes even better.

Support just feels way too impactful. Braum, Leona, and Thresh I always do well with them even if I'm on the losing team.

It's been a long time since I've played support but I remember getting S every game with thresh.

They really don't need help. They actually need nerfs.

GayFluffyUnicorn9 votes

That's exactly the problem i see here when riot literally says that ardent meta showed them supports prefer buying impactful items like ardent. Ofc they said they don't want another ardent but let's be honest: riot views supps as floating item slots for adcs anyways and i expect some other op items.

On the other hand they say it opens up choices but imo it even reduces the choices. Right now you can choose between offensive/defensive lane/teamfight options or vision control for the team. They want to remove the current quests on the items for the actives and give them a warding passive instead. So no more targon, spooky ghosts. I really don't know what to think of these changes.

Slythion4 votes

That's exactly the problem i see here when riot literally says that ardent meta showed them supports prefer buying impactful items like ardent. Ofc they said they don't want another ardent but let's be honest: riot views supps as floating item slots for adcs anyways and i expect some other op items.

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and ask how else they should view supports? If you stop making them as item-focused and make them more solo-skilled champions with their kits then we traditionally see them dominate solo lanes by themselves. It's very tough to design a support with a strong kit that doesn't go off and dominate by in a solo lane for the higher income.

Supports have to operate on a lower income, and so if they have a successfully strong solo-skilled kit on low income, we see them be naturally better than solo laners that are balanced around having a solo-lane income.

We saw Tahm dominate jungle/top lane for awhile, Lulu is another great example as well.

Genuinely curious as to your thoughts about this though.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

Yup i know, i played during those times and the horror of toplane lulu. I still want to kms thinking about it. And i get that it's hard for league as a game to design supps as you said it. IMO and i think i'm in a minority here unfortunately like the designs of redemption and locket extending fights, resetting fights THIS is the direction riot should go. Also spooky ghosts and these things. What is NOT okay is statstick shit purely made to amplify ADCs by pure stats for rightclicking alone, that's all im gonna say.

Supporter are supporter and not "adc bitch". Support your team by providing vision, clearing vision, denying vision, redemption usage to help me win that 1v1 toplane these kind of things and i'm just worried riot is going to focus more on fueling more power into adcs when they need LESS.

I think it really comes down to nerfing ADCs damage output to make supports more versatile to help their team and especially whoever is carrying right now: be it a jax, camille or a syndra. We need more playmaker and less i press E and win supports. Locket, redemption, targon right now just feel so frustrating because they often are purely used to make the adc immortal who in return two shots everyone in front of them. Make adcs NOT be THE lategame carry and these items will feel less frustrating and open up the possibilities for supports to support their team.

Maybe my suggestions would end in a catastrophe idk but that's how i view it. Let's see what you think about it.

Slythion1 votes

I like this idea, but I also don't know how it could be implemented into the game. There's only so many items they can create that influence the game like Redemption does, and I'd be extremely worried about creating any items that other classes can abuse.

We see the same problem with support items that we see with supports themselves. They're gated by costs. To create influential items for supports, they naturally have to be less expensive.

If the stats/rewards are too high while the item is at support-level cost, other classes will abuse it. If the stats/rewards are too low as a support-level cost, it's a poor item that wont be built If the stats/rewards are good but cost is too high, you've just made another solo-lane item If stats/rewards are good and price too low, it'll be another "must have" item that dominates the game

Supports in general are just extremely difficult to balance because they function on such a low income. That's probably why they've been shoved into the item stackstick corner, because that's just (believe it or not) the least difficult/problematic approach they have.

Basically: you can't balance supports around they're kits because they'll turn into solo-lane monsters. you can't provide a wide array of viable supports with items because they'll be abused by other classes

It's a bitch of a problem

Also, whoever is just downvoting me/upvoting Mr. Unicorn could really provide they're own perspective or really anything to this discussion. No one likes a voting-bot that functions purely on whichever comment sounds good or most closely resembles they're predisposed opinions.

I value any worthwhile input, whether I agree with it not. Any new views/perspectives, or even a new approach to an already stated opinion to explain it better is always appreciated. I aim to discuss and stimulate thought, and a random vote doesn't help with anything is all

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Well i can't do more than ask for people to stop with it in my edit below my post i already saw that way before your comment. If you want to know how ridiculous it can get look at my discussion with rubick. He gets downvoted, i agree with him and get upvoted. I have legit no idea where this comes from.

Thing is, is it that bad when support items get "abused"? Before the tank rework i used to spam nautilus for a while toplane and after three items i usually bought locket and redemption on him to support my carries in teamfights even more. I actually got made fun of by player for doing this but i had 60% winrate on in, pretty good if you ask me.

Yeah i get it's difficult since the creativity is heavily limit by a lot of factors, still marksmen are already way too statchecky with few to no counterplay. Statchecks are always bad in this game. Give supports an item that gives enemies a brittle effect so CCs last longer. Give them maybe their own version of a zzrot? I dunno i think there are still a lot of options to emplore. An item that only affects melee allies? Like sejuanis passive. All i want to prevent is another ardent meta in the end a nerf to marksmen to open up the support role. Imo one reason why noone plays it is because they ARE dependent on their adc and while it will never be completely independent of each other right now it's more a life and death situation.

Slythion2 votes

I really wouldn't say things like Locket or Redemption are "abused" so to speak. They're definitely viable for other classes, but not 100% the most efficient in most situations. I honestly can't think of any cases of support items being abused, but there are several examples outside of the support class where items have been abused. Black Cleaver, pretty much all Lethality items, etc. So while we don't really have any good examples for support items to this date, I wouldn't necessarily say it isn't possible. It's just something to be careful of if/when we do see a support item rehaul, as I do think cases of item abusement is a real threat with this approach.

Although, this is definitely an avenue of balance that I would like to see explored. Like I said before, I was just playing the devil's advocate because I honestly didn't know where the conversation would go.

Overall, I think we can conclude that your idea is at least worth exploring. It brings a different set of risks then the current method of reducing supports to adc stat-sticks, but the potential reward could also be much more enjoyable than currently.

Nymzo6 votes

Yep and these changes are not even good (again...).

Though I suppose I shouldn't talk, my role has way too much impact right now for what I've experienced and seen.

Bârd5 votes

Yup.

Instead of changes to a role that seriously needs more game impact, we get unwanted and disliked nerfs to a role that was finally getting some time in the sun.

ChuShoe3 votes

small question... What was the DynQ disaster?

Who is Taliyah4 votes

Start of season 6:

Riot removed Solo queue and made it possible for teams of premades up to FIVE to queue up together for ranked and if you got unlucky you would get matched against 5 premades while your team consisted of 2 premades and 3 solos or being solo get matched with 4 premade teammates (very high possibility to get flamed or forced into one role). Which without much thinking is clear that it would bring problems.

In season 7 they finally removed Dynamic Queue and brought back solo queue and additionally Flex Q which is practically Dynamic queue just with the restriction that you can't queue up as a 4 premade group.

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

Since people leave out half what actually happened: Riot promised a pure soloQ we have been asking for ages 2 weeks after the release of DynQ to see if DynQ actually works and such.

Welp for a few months complete silence on the topic hundreds over hundreds of posts ignored and no soloQ in sight. DynQ was the biggest upfuck you can imagine: silver players boosted to diamond and master. Entire LCS teams playing together against random soloQ challenger.

Then after nearly half a year the first reaction which kinda read like: There is definitely a world where soloQ might not return. Boom radio silence.

Then they come up with how great DynQ is right now. Dia+ is solo/duo only (after damage has been done) and the rest is working as intented, everyone who is now complaining is just a "very very small but passionate minority" but "we are past the point of talking about dynamicQ".

Way too many people still confuse DynQ with role selection which got introduced WITH the new dynamicQ.

After the year riot basically said "oops we fucked up sorry haHAA more transparency btw". That was it basically. Mocked us with the direct quotes i gave there, shoved it down our throat, lied and ignored us and acted like "we know you dont like dynQ but we know better what you actually want". I believe riot today still thinks DynQ was a great thing.

Wolfeur3 votes

5 seasons of barely touched Sightstone, 4 seasons of gold gens, 2 seasons of "Eye" lines, 1 season of quests

It's funny how fast you come up with these support changes

Something doesn't add up…

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