So instead of nerfing Zed and Lee.....

Tik115··3 votes·857 views

Little bit of discussion past the "NERF LEE AND ZED NAO!" Bandwagon (which I am totally on by the way)

So we all know mana got hit hard in the preseason, regen is weaker, Blue doesn't last as long etc and because of this Zed has risen in the mid lane as THE go to mid laner (Outside of maybe Shurima, I mean Shurima, I mean Azir) and even now since his release Lee is warping the jungle, not as bad as he use to but still pretty heavily

So the thought occurred to me: what if Energy got the same regen nerfs mana did?

Now hear me out before you jump down my throat, currently the problem with there's champion is they can outstutain any mana champion, no mana mid laner can compete against an energy mid lane with the intent to win (Even Azir can only hope to go even because he'll go OOM trying to trade with his soldiers) They can only hope to go even or just be slightly behind, this is because Zed (lets face it Zed is pretty much the only energy mid laner used (Yes I know Akali but this is for arguments sake)) can do what mages can do longer, he can clear waves with his skills, poke with his skills far longer then any other mana champion where as before the nerfs he had a much harder time trying to keep his wave pushed (Lets not go into his Ease of last hitting under turret) then there's Lee, where as a normal jungler's gank potential is judged by their health AND their mana (Why would a J4 try to gank if he can't E>Q?) Lee only has to worry about health (Yadayada second W cast OP blahblahblah) so what if Energy got the same regen nerfs that Mana did? I mean Energy is meant to be for more early game potential but now Energy is early game dominance.

So I know there's a few things gonna be said

"Your just mad a Zed killed you" Yes I am, I am also mad that there is a Zed in most of my matches (Baring a few freak occurrences or streak) Riot talks about Diversity yet it's nothing but Zed Azir Zed Azir in the mid lane

"Shen would be even more irreverent" Yeah...that's the biggest hitch in this, The only thing I can think of is reducing his energy costs

"This would make energy champions UP" As opposed to what they do now?

"Just have the jungler give you blue" Then the Jungler would have mana issues and if its an energy champion mid odds are by the time that second blue arrives you would of already fallen behind

20 Comments

SEKAI3 votes

Well meta shifting.

Assassins are taking over mid, ranged are slowly taking over top, the rest either vanish into the bin or now lives in the jungle. The only thing that hasn't been touched are bot lane (adc+support) and Lee Sin.

Riot really should take a note from one of the champions they created, I am looking at you item 3175 .

Also take a note on other moba/arts, for the definition of viable and optimal, and how they work. But I think Riot is slowing moving towards the right direction on this one except the few things I mentioned above. Also community needa git gud too, no more sheepin'.

Tik1151 votes

{quoted}

Well meta shifting.

Assassins are taking over mid, ranged are slowly taking over top, the rest either vanish into the bin or now lives in the jungle. The only thing that hasn't been touched are bot lane (adc+support) and Lee Sin.

Riot really should take a note from one of the champions they created, I am looking at you item 3175 .

Also take a note on other moba/arts, for the definition of viable and optimal, and how they work. But I think Riot is slowing moving towards the right direction on this one except the few things I mentioned above. Also community needa git gud too, no more sheepin'.

I'm aware of Meta shifting but remember, that typically happens due to buffs and nerfs (Looking at you Corki During S3 Worlds) with the hit to mana costs it's basically saying "We don't want you to be playable if you cost alot of mana to use" and so Energy champions (who didn't get their energy regen nerfed due to....iunno reason) or champions that have ether low mana or more AA based are becoming populer, I understand thats the way Meta is, always shifting but I feel the mana nerfs have killed what Riot has claimed the Preseason would be all about, Diversity, as you said we have just assassins mid, ranged top (minus Maokai) and Lee Sin jungle, that to me anyway is a sign that Riot failed in their preseason goal by making low mana cost and energy champions have an easier time

SEKAI1 votes

While you have a solid point, this is still all preseason.

I hope Riot can sort it out either before the new season, or at least just a little bit into the season.

Otherwise, yes, I would agree that season will become a failure.

Please don't screw up Riot, please.

Tik1151 votes

{quoted}

While you have a solid point, this is still all preseason.

I hope Riot can sort it out either before the new season, or at least just a little bit into the season.

Otherwise, yes, I would agree that season will become a failure.

Please don't screw up Riot, please.

problem is the next patch will signal the start of Season 5 and they have gotten VERY stingy about changing things mid season

SEKAI1 votes

Dang.

If they don't fix it next patch, or the patch after that one.

I am guessing this season will most likely become the next S3, which I surely don't want to see.

Kuroi861 votes

Mana nerfs, are people referring to item 3028 &item 3174 ?

I thought the point of that was to stop the whole "I've got my one item, I have no more mana problems, now I can go full assassin." Early game mana problems are meant to gate certain champs early games. Meanwhile there were items that negated this and upped their early and mid game too much.

Are assassins too strong in the early game? Maybe, the trick is how to make their early game more risk/reward without wrecking them.

Kuroi862 votes

Assassins took over mid a while back. Marksmen and Mages are going top because it's being found they are good against bruisers who bully out tanks.

Bot lane is semi-stale despite more breaking the meta in that lane than any other. And despite numerous nerfs, Lee Sin is still the jack of all trades and a too reliable pick that too many people go for.

OJ1911 votes

{quoted}

Assassins took over mid a while back. Marksmen and Mages are going top because it's being found they are good against bruisers who bully out tanks.

Bot lane is semi-stale despite more breaking the meta in that lane than any other. And despite numerous nerfs, Lee Sin is still the jack of all trades and a too reliable pick that too many people go for.

maybe I'm biased but I wouldn't call lee sin a "jack of all trades master of none"

I'd call him a "master of all trades failure at only those that are totally irrelevant anyway"

{quoted}

Do you mean mana assassin vs energy assassin or mage vs assassin? Mana assassins aren't in a terrible place. Ahri Fizz Khazix Malzahar Talon

Mages, now there's another thing. But then, are they really supposed to outclass assassins in the place that assassins excel? 1v1 duels. I thought the point of the assassin was to be a threat to single targets while the mage was a massive threat in team fights. Am I wrong?

Assassins were also supposed to have a relatively poor laning phase so they don't just walk up to lane and free win it by virtue of being an asssassin, for the whole purpose of NOT pushing mages out into limbo.

yeah so much for that, now the only time mages are played is in bot lane as support, in top lane as counters, or by those who main them mid.

hell in zed's case he has a lot of mage match-ups he free wins just by virtue of being zed

{quoted}

That's always what I felt. Mages are supposed to be high damage plus control, assassins are assassins.

So you're saying high damage + control shouldn't beat assassins?

You know all the assassin defenders like to say "just CC them" right? Only one of you can be correct, if "just CC them" is correct then mages should be beating them in lane, but they aren't so if "just CC them" IS correct then mages must be underpowered.

If "just CC them" isn't correct, then how is ANYONE supposed to beat them that isn't another assassins (or one of the good-vs-assassins- bruisers I guess, but somehow I doubt mage mains want to be playing bruisers).

Kuroi861 votes

maybe I'm biased but I wouldn't call lee sin a "jack of all trades master of none"

I'd call him a "master of all trades failure at only those that are totally irrelevant anyway"

That's the thing, there are champs that do what he does, just better. There are champs that are more mobile/slippery. There are champs with better CC Champs that do better full damage. Champs that do better full tank. Champs with stronger dueling abilities. The problem is Lee Sin can do this all and while some one may do one thing better, all of what he can do makes him good at everything and bad at nothing, at worst Lee Sin is Meh at a few things. This leads to Lee Sin Syndrome, everything you can do leads you to being bad at nothing. Nerfing Lee really doesn't solve the problem as keeping him viable means keeping him strong. The only alternative is to push him into a niche instead of letting him be too all around viable and too well rounded.

Assassins were also supposed to have a relatively poor laning phase so they don't just walk up to lane and free win it by virtue of being an asssassin, for the whole purpose of NOT pushing mages out into limbo.

Actually, pre-6, most assassins are pretty crap in lane.
The problem is most mages are also ult reliant but lack the 1v1 potential of assassins. If Mages weren't so dependent on getting to lvl 6 to really be relevant, they might stand a better chance in lane against assassins. But with mana changes, mages have to be a lot smarter about whether they wave clear, harass the assassin, a whole lot of factors make mages a much higher risk than assassins. The pay off is worth it, if you are good enough to survive lane and avoid letting the assassin get fed.

Tik1151 votes

{quoted}

Assassins took over mid a while back.

Not entirely true, while sure during worlds we saw alot of Zeds and LBs we also saw a decent amount of none assasins mid like Ori, Syndra and Xerath, you can argue they were on their way out during worlds but they still would of been relevent at shutting down assassins, the mana changes have destroyed that and basically made it "Go Assassin or low cost or go home"

'We want diversity' Riot says, Mission Failed I say

Kuroi861 votes

Idk, meta's shift constantly. I started seeing what I thought was the assassin meta towards the end of season 3, beginning of season four. Just after Riot had squashed the MetaGolem. Then partway through season four we start seeing assassin nerfs coming out in droves. Kha'Zix, Rengar, Lich Bane. Then LB and Talon get their silences removed, Kat gets her early ult nerfed, Akali looses her bonus defenses in her shroud. I think Zed is the ONLY assassin that hasn't seen a nerf. Granted, during this time, Zed was called by many the most balanced assassin of the bunch, which I think speaks for how wild the rest of the assassin class was at the time.

Tik1151 votes

{quoted}

Idk, meta's shift constantly. I started seeing what I thought was the assassin meta towards the end of season 3, beginning of season four. Just after Riot had squashed the MetaGolem. Then partway through season four we start seeing assassin nerfs coming out in droves. Kha'Zix, Rengar, Lich Bane. Then LB and Talon get their silences removed, Kat gets her early ult nerfed, Akali looses her bonus defenses in her shroud. I think Zed is the ONLY assassin that hasn't seen a nerf. Granted, during this time, Zed was called by many the most balanced assassin of the bunch, which I think speaks for how wild the rest of the assassin class was at the time.

of course thats the thing though, if a champion of their class is considered balanced then the others get nerfed well suddenly the one considered balanced isn't balanced in the class anymore now is he?

Sure Zed was the most balanced of the assassins before the assassin nerfs but now that they've came and gone and he came out untouched it's made him the strongest, I mean I'm not gonna stand up and proclaim I know all on balance cause I don't, never worked on a game requireing it in my life but I believe that if your going to nerf champions in a certain role you should nerf ALL champions in that role, obviously at variying amount but still nerf it because if a pack of wolves has an average wolf and the stronger others get sick or hurt and he doesn't he's gonna become pack leader, the same case with Zed, he was balanced in the assassin class, the others got nerfed and he rose to top of the class.

I mean comparing Assassins now to Assassins then Zed is that level of Wild assassins use to be still, all that's changed is who is the leader of that absurd level of wild

Its kind of unfortunate that an intended discussion of nerfing energy regen the same as mana regen turned into a Zed discussion again, Gameplay and balance is too full of them but I guess it's unavoidable.

Kuroi861 votes

Because typically when someone is complaining about energy users, they mean one of two champs. Zed &Akali One has already seen a heavy nerf on her survivability (Though many seem to refuse to admit that standing in her shroud waiting for her cooldowns to come up is a bad idea, they just want her gutted.) The other got a number of nerfs on release and only in the last season got some buffs. Right now many agree that the only issue with Zed is that he is too safe, and one of the biggest ways to adjust that is to make adjustments on his shadows. Though not many right now can agree on how to do that.

Where energy is concerned, it's definitely stronger than mana in the laning phase, but mana can quickly overcome it's limitations in the mid game and by late game you forget you have mana unless you play one of a very few champs. Energy on the other hand doesn't scale, you keep the same amount all game and have no way to scale up your energy return on your abilities, meaning you're gated for the entirety of the game, forcing you to think before you jump or else you may run out of energy right as you smack face first into an angry Renekton.

Zahz3 votes

Zeds kit is just to strong all around. No mana, insane poke, escapes, gap closer, wave clear, split pusher. dueler, and just all around no weaknesses to compensate

Kuroi861 votes

no mana mid laner can compete against an energy mid lane with the intent to win

Do you mean mana assassin vs energy assassin or mage vs assassin? Mana assassins aren't in a terrible place. Ahri Fizz Khazix Malzahar Talon

Mages, now there's another thing. But then, are they really supposed to outclass assassins in the place that assassins excel? 1v1 duels. I thought the point of the assassin was to be a threat to single targets while the mage was a massive threat in team fights. Am I wrong?

Sachabot1 votes

That's always what I felt. Mages are supposed to be high damage plus control, assassins are assassins.

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

Why not just eliminate energy? It is one of the hardest resources to balance and there is really no point in having it.

Leblancs Boob1 votes

Except Zed already ruled mid lane before mana regen nerfs and now he's basically unstoppable in the hands of a decent player.

Tik1152 votes

{quoted}

Except Zed already ruled mid lane before mana regen nerfs and now he's basically unstoppable in the hands of a decent player.

Your partly correct, Zed was a strong pick before the nerfs but he wasn't the unstoppable monster he is now, I mean look throughout S4 and you'll see he only really got picked near worlds, this was because champions he was rather scared of (Syndra Xerath Orianna ) could match his waveclear and could harasse him while only having slight mana issues (it wasn't such a huge shot in the foot buying a seekers first in S4) now that those champions have had their mana regen nerfed Zed has nothing to fear (Minus maybe Azir ) as a result, the unstoppable monster he is, my thoughts is that if Energy also had the nerfs then Zed would have to be worried about those champions again because "Well I will still always be able to use my skills but nowhere near as often"

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