"Hurr durr Illaoi lost animation cancelling"

Salron·Mar 25, 2017·69 votes·4,952 views

No, she lost the ability to ignore cast times on E Big difference

Same type of change change was made to Zed because he was able to ignore W's cast time by Wing after http://puu.sh/uY3Zb/02d9446ea4.png

52 Comments

Big LincolnMar 25, 201722 votes

No, she lost the ability to ignore cast times on E

that's not it either, she ignored the travel time AND made it invisible

so it would instantly grab anyone in the line of it if she canceled it.

ZerenzaMar 25, 201713 votes

This, an animation cancel is different than this bug, with illaoi you can cancel the last few frames of her W, Q or E so she isn't standing still as long but being able to E and instantly catch someone regardless of whether the animation hits or not is NOT an animation cancel. She can still animation cancel all the same and this is a good change.

~Mastery 7 Illaoi Main

Big LincolnMar 25, 201713 votes

~Mastery 7 Illaoi Main

https://archive-media.nyafuu.org/wsr/image/1451/88/1451882173413.jpg

xeviMar 25, 20171 votes

mrw someone uses flash on shift+L

Big LincolnMar 25, 20171 votes

mrw someone uses flash ult and not ult flash

HarrisonOwnsMar 26, 20172 votes

You do realize that by definition animation canceling is an exploit of a bug, right?

Canceling an animation is just so prevalent and "accepted" now, it's too late to do the right thing and remove all instances of it. People think it's so skillful to allow this exploit to continue, so it will always exist.

This is just a deeper exploit of the same sort that was bug fixed.

ZerenzaMar 26, 20171 votes

Animation canceling has been prevalent since the beginning of the game, what do you think kiting is? It's just a simple auto attack animation cancel. Animation canceling isn't really a bug it's more caused by how the game was designed, pretty much every champion can animation cancel an AA or certain abilities even if just a little like with Illaoi. The game allows us to input movement commands during attack and ability commands, this causes us to move at the next possible instance where we can move. Causing some frames of the animation to be canceled and allowing for ADC's for example to be good in a game full of dashing and blinking.

It is a type of skill expression considering in High Elo, ADC's can't play without knowing how to "Perfect Kite" or Animation Cancel, some champions can't even be played at high ELO because it leaves to much of an opening. When i fight other illaoi player's, i can tell when they don't animation cancel, it's a free trade if an illaoi E's and misses but also doesn't cancel the animation, it's also way to easy to dodge her skillshot's if she doesn't animation cancel her Q.

ChaoticPineconeMar 26, 20172 votes

To be fair, kiting isnt "just" a simple auto attack animation cancel. Its actually just moving between autos or abilities to gain distance between you and the enemy. Its just that the most effective way of kiting in League involves animation canceling. Champions without animation cancels can still kite, and getting rid of animation canceling doesnt stop the concept of kiting.

My entire gripe with the whole thing is that some animation cancels are considered "okay" while others are not. If, in fact, animation canceling is part of the game and is a skill expression, why is Riven allowed to animation cancel but not Illaoi? Is Illaoi not allowed to be a high-elo champ?

Arcus DiabolusMar 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, kiting isnt "just" a simple auto attack animation cancel. Its actually just moving between autos or abilities to gain distance between you and the enemy. Its just that the most effective way of kiting in League involves animation canceling. Champions without animation cancels can still kite, and getting rid of animation canceling doesnt stop the concept of kiting.

My entire gripe with the whole thing is that some animation cancels are considered "okay" while others are not. If, in fact, animation canceling is part of the game and is a skill expression, why is Riven allowed to animation cancel but not Illaoi? Is Illaoi not allowed to be a high-elo champ?

Exactly one ability can't be abused to throw a instant, invisible skill shot. She can still cancel all her other animations. Stuff like that are unintended bugs that need to be addressed.

Animation canceling as they are, as I pointed out is in fact intended and is actively balanced around.

While what you said about the concept of animation canceling is true, Riven doesnt solely cancel her "Return" frames. Her E actually cancels start up frames (W). And of course, Riven can overlap a lot of her "Startup" frames - you need at least one Startup, but you arent forced to go through the Startup with all of her abilities.

By definition, she could not have canceled her startup frames and still got the stun off without a bug similar to Illaoi's. That means she never would have reached her active frames and thus canceled the whole attack. If anything, the issue would be her active frames for her W start as soon as the button is pressed and she is in fact canceling her needless recovery frames. Should she have startup frames on her W? Probably, but most characters don't have much in the ways of startup frames either unless the attack as some range to it. Personally, I think everything should have startup frames that can be counter played around.

ChaoticPineconeMar 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVxX65dO,comment-id=000200000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-26T09:29:38.185+0000)

By definition, she could not have canceled her startup frames and still got the stun off without a bug similar to Illaoi's. That means she never would have reached her active frames and thus canceled the whole attack. If anything, the issue would be her active frames for her W start as soon as the button is pressed and she is in fact canceling her needless recovery frames. Should she have startup frames on her W? Probably, but most characters don't have much in the ways of startup frames either unless the attack as some range to it. Personally, I think everything should have startup frames that can be counter played around.

If you slow-motion Riven's W, you see her raise her sword in the air (the startup), you see the stun go off (the active), then you see her lower her sword (the return). During the animation, there is a pause where she stops before the startup animation and when the stun goes off, so she basically roots herself in place during the full animation. If you use a E-W-Q combo, you completely bypass her animation for her W, and it allows her to cast her W completely during the movement of her E and Q. (Using the E-W combo removes the startup/active root, using the W-Q combo removes the active/return root).

I think we disagree about when the actives frames are reached. Youre saying her active frames are immediate when pressing her W, which I see as half true. Her active frames are immediate IF you cancel her animations. If you dont cancel her animations, she has a delayed W animation with the full startup-active-return. When Illaoi was using the animation cancel, it worked the same way - the active frames are immediate if you cancel it, but delayed if you do not.

Of course with Illaoi, youre talking about exacerbating the issue - Riven has a very slight delay on her W animation's startup while Illaoi's startup is quite long (edit - and the ability has a travel time). But its the same concept, even if youre removing a longer animation.

Asayake 5150glowMar 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If you slow-motion Riven's W, you see her raise her sword in the air (the startup), you see the stun go off (the active), then you see her lower her sword (the return). During the animation, there is a pause where she stops before the startup animation and when the stun goes off, so she basically roots herself in place during the full animation. If you use a E-W-Q combo, you completely bypass her animation for her W, and it allows her to cast her W completely during the movement of her E and Q. (Using the E-W combo removes the startup/active root, using the W-Q combo removes the active/return root).

I think we disagree about when the actives frames are reached. Youre saying her active frames are immediate when pressing her W, which I see as half true. Her active frames are immediate IF you cancel her animations. If you dont cancel her animations, she has a delayed W animation with the full startup-active-return. When Illaoi was using the animation cancel, it worked the same way - the active frames are immediate if you cancel it, but delayed if you do not.

Of course with Illaoi, youre talking about exacerbating the issue - Riven has a very slight delay on her W animation's startup while Illaoi's startup is quite long (edit - and the ability has a travel time). But its the same concept, even if youre removing a longer animation.

Sigh, Riven's W has no delay on it's stun because that would be super awkward. Compare it to Lee E, and you'll see.

ChaoticPineconeMar 27, 20171 votes

Sigh.

Yes, it is super awkward. Its why most (all good Rivens) cancel the animation - its super awkward, since she roots herself during the duration. Why dont you actually play Riven once or twice and cast her W to find out for yourself.

Asayake 5150glowMar 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sigh.

Yes, it is super awkward. Its why most (all good Rivens) cancel the animation - its super awkward, since she roots herself during the duration. Why dont you actually play Riven once or twice and cast her W to find out for yourself.

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=TheMoonlitShadow

I'm a fucking Riven main dude.

ChaoticPineconeMar 27, 20171 votes

Then you should know that she roots herself during the animation.

Asayake 5150glowMar 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Then you should know that she roots herself during the animation.

She stuns herself after and during the animation, which is all after the stun. Riven's W is special as in there is no start up animation. Of course the rest of the animation can be canceled (well, partially).

I objected as you said it had an animation before the stun actually hit that was canceled by W+Q. W+Q only cancels/combines the actual animation, as there is no start up animation. The doublecast is actually a mechanic that allows Riven to ignore cast times on W/Q, but although it may have began as a bug, it certainly isn't one any longer and does not need removing.

Arcus DiabolusMar 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that by definition animation canceling is an exploit of a bug, right?

Canceling an animation is just so prevalent and "accepted" now, it's too late to do the right thing and remove all instances of it. People think it's so skillful to allow this exploit to continue, so it will always exist.

This is just a deeper exploit of the same sort that was bug fixed.

You'd have an aneurysm if you tried to play fighting games, good god. XD

YoungSirJ0eyMar 27, 20171 votes

No, it's really not. It's an exploit, sure, but it's an exploit of something entirely intentional. Riot didn't have to make autoattack empowering abilities reset autoattack timers. They didn't have to make it so Riven's Q casts wouldn't lock her out of autoattacking. But they did.

And this isn't like wardhopping, which was a byproduct of how wards were coded, they did this on purpose. In Riven's case, they explicitly stated that she draws heavy inspiration from fighting games, and her passive would be extremely awkward if she couldn't animation cancel, and in the case of autoattack-empowering abilities, there is no logical reason they would need to reset the autoattack timer, it just makes them feel better to use.

nice tableMar 25, 20177 votes

so kinda like riven with a lot of her abilities?

Arcus DiabolusMar 25, 201715 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVxX65dO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-03-25T21:28:54.960+0000)

so kinda like riven with a lot of her abilities?

No. The difference is with most animation canceling, you are canceling the recovery frames and not the startup frames.

Every animation has three parts. Start up frames, which is the part of the animation before damage occurs. (Think just throwing a punch, before you hit) Active frames, where the damage happens. (Your punch making contact) And then you have recovery frames, where the animation returns the character to its idle animation. (Returning your arm back to your original fighting stance.)

Riven in all her combos are taking off the recovery frames. She still has to go through her start up and active frames, or else she won't be doing damage. If you watch Riven's combos in slow motion, you will notice she is still actively striking her opponent. If she canceled her startup frames before the active frames, she'd simply cancel the whole attack and not do damage at all.

Illaoi and Zed were bypassing the startup frames altogether and going right to active frames, if the active frames played at all, making instant, impossible to see damage come out of no where.

nice tableMar 25, 20176 votes

weird, never seen the stratup or active animation of a decent riven activating her ult.

Arcus DiabolusMar 25, 201710 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVxX65dO,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-25T21:50:33.035+0000)

weird, never seen the stratup or active animation of a decent riven activating her ult.

The thing with her ult is the active frames start right as you press R. An animation does play, but you don't need it, so you can cancel with your E or W and play that animation instead without accidentally canceling her ult.

Her ult starts as soon as you hit R because its a passive buff rather than an attack.

nice tableMar 25, 20172 votes

weird how illaoi E and zed W aren't attacks either eh

Arcus DiabolusMar 25, 201711 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVxX65dO,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-25T22:02:19.186+0000)

weird how illaoi E and zed W aren't attacks either eh

Illoai's E arguably is. Its supposed to be something you can dodge and thus avoid. The problem here is you simply can't if she cancels her startup frames and hits you instantly and without an animation. Your soul is just suddenly standing next to Illaoi rather than Illoai actually reaching out and pulling it from you.

EDIT: Riven's R shares many qualities of Yi's R because its a passive buff. Yi could ult then immediately Q and still have the ult buff without playing the ult animation. Same goes for Tynd and several others.

nice tableMar 26, 20173 votes

trynda and yi are supposed to be able to do things while ulting, their ults actually has no cast time much like zed E while in rivens case its not supposed to be instant and its supposed to stop her from doing other shit.

AckelopeMar 26, 20171 votes

They're different in the way that Illaoi's E and Zed's W both shoot something or make something appear, while Riven's R changes some of her stats for a period.

nice tableMar 26, 20172 votes

kind of funny how the same thing applies to riven ultimates second activation which can also be canceled in the same fashion.

Arcus DiabolusMar 26, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=nice table,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVxX65dO,comment-id=0001000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-26T02:13:10.604+0000)

kind of funny how the same thing applies to riven ultimates second activation which can also be canceled in the same fashion.

No, it isn't. If Riven fires her ult at you, you see the damn thing coming and have time to avoid it. Granted, its sort of quick and its wide, but its not instant nor is it invisible.

nice tableMar 26, 20171 votes

its instant and invisible because its in melee range, you cannot react to a melee range riven ultimate either.

Leaf on BushMar 25, 20173 votes

So by giving diffrent names to the same thing you justify Rivens broken state.

And I mean mechanically broken, not the overall power.

Arcus DiabolusMar 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancer Cavalier ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVxX65dO,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-25T23:30:03.683+0000)

So by giving diffrent names to the same thing you justify Rivens broken state.

And I mean mechanically broken, not the overall power.

You know that everyone uses animation canceling, right?? What on earth do you think any kind of kiting or combos are?

Automated RivenMar 25, 20172 votes

Rivens E-R1 cancels all of the frames for her ult. Tecnically rivens ult has like a .25 seconds cast time which is completly ignored when you E-R1 The equivalent of the illaoi bug would be if she cast R2-e and instantly without the animation everyone in the cone at the time of the cast ignoring the travel time of the ability.

Asayake 5150glowMar 26, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVxX65dO,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-25T22:34:38.677+0000)

Rivens E-R1 cancels all of the frames for her ult. Tecnically rivens ult has like a .25 seconds cast time which is completly ignored when you E-R1 The equivalent of the illaoi bug would be if she cast R2-e and instantly without the animation everyone in the cone at the time of the cast ignoring the travel time of the ability.

Not quite all frames, I've been informed that there is a very brief delay at the end if done properly.

TheGoomyGamerMar 26, 20171 votes

From what I understand, Riven's R animation counts as downtime animation - the R activates as soon as you press R, and you can see her blade getting reforged or whatever. The R animation is actually a useless downtime animation that is possible to cancel.

ChaoticPineconeMar 26, 20171 votes

While what you said about the concept of animation canceling is true, Riven doesnt solely cancel her "Return" frames. Her E actually cancels start up frames (W). And of course, Riven can overlap a lot of her "Startup" frames - you need at least one Startup, but you arent forced to go through the Startup with all of her abilities.

AFilthyCaitMainMar 25, 20174 votes

Upvoted. Thanks for bringing this to attention.

Leaf on BushMar 25, 20174 votes

meanwhile Riven

downvoted by riven mains

dunder killMar 25, 20179 votes

Making your projectiles invisible is not the same as animation canceling

Leaf on BushMar 26, 20176 votes

Even if your enemies can no longer see your animation?

dunder killMar 26, 201711 votes

You still see all her animations. She cuts frames off of the end, not the beginning. She also doesn't launch invisible projectiles at you

VasilisGreenMar 26, 20171 votes

[deleted]

TheGoomyGamerMar 26, 20171 votes

Karma s E? wtf they are talking about Illaoi

CheekynorthMar 26, 20171 votes

I thought this thread was about Illaoi, not Karma

GayFluffyUnicornMar 27, 20171 votes

Well she throws invisible AAs on you. Kinda the same isn't it?

ApocalypsicMar 26, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancer Cavalier ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVxX65dO,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-25T22:51:18.224+0000)

meanwhile

downvoted by riven mains

Probably just being downvoted by people with a decent grasp on game mechanics.

bbQsauçeMar 26, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Asayake 5150glowMar 27, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVxX65dO,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-03-26T13:54:28.230+0000)

??? Cast times = Animation Ignore cast time = Animation canceling [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Cast times = animiation

Animation =/= Cast times. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

bbQsauçeMar 27, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Asayake 5150glowMar 27, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVxX65dO,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-03-27T12:44:43.824+0000)

http://imgur.com/a/XxXVJ

Cast times often have an animation, consider, Morg's Q, Jarvan's Q. They're get animations to emphasize them, and you can't move or do anything else during the cast time, although Jarvan's Q has a ending animation of the spear retracting that can be canceled (although the animation doesn't actually cancel, it kinda spazzes out.

Animations do not always have a cast time, however. Think of Xerath's W. It has no cast time, because he can still move while using it, but he will have the animation where he spreads his arms.

YoungSirJ0eyMar 27, 20171 votes

Xerath's W does have cast time, though, it's just fucking tiny, and the animation is significantly longer than it. If you want an ability with animation, but no cast time, see Hecarim Q.

Asayake 5150glowMar 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Xerath's W does have cast time, though, it's just fucking tiny, and the animation is significantly longer than it. If you want an ability with animation, but no cast time, see Hecarim Q.

Oh, huh, I don't play Xerath so I didn't know.