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Nerfing the MR of certain AD items would be smarter than giving AP+Armor items.

MissingKayo·Mar 12, 2017·69 votes·3,528 views

Yes, assassins are meant to counter mages. Yes, they're doing it a bit too well because of how strong MR itemization is for them.

No, mages do not need more survivability. They are not supposed to have it. They have CC in their kits, inherent range, AoE, and multiple health option items for a reason. They are supposed to stick with their team.

No, an assassin shouldn't be able to tank a mage's abilities. No, the mage doesn't need more armor to help tank the assassin's combo. They're not supposed to. If they get hit by an assassin's full combo while Zhonya's isn't purchased or off-cooldown, and they weren't with their team, that is their fault for being out of position and they deserve to be erased.

Building full MR style on an assassin guts their damage, but it guts the mage's damage against them as well, but it guts the mage's moreso on average. 250.46 MR on level 18 Zed with standard MR glyphs and a Guardian Angel if he goes the MR build path versus 141.2 Armor on level 18 Annie with standard Armor seals and Zhonya's. Zed's MR build will only have Edge for penetration whereas Annie has Sorc Boots and Void Staff. Zed's damage will be reduced to 44.2% (45.3% if you count Precision, assuming he doesn't have Lethality runes). Annie's damage will be reduced to 40.3%.

That means neither of them will do that much, but the assassin (who can use autoattacks well whereas the mage can't as they rely pretty much solely on abilities, as well as having lifesteal) will just beat them to death with a blunt stick, even if it takes forever. (Yes, the mage being alone or their team not helping for that long is a separate issue).

An assassin shouldn't be some tanky duelist with pansy-ass damage that just eats everything coming to them. They should be glass cannon but burst down their targets just as fast as they would be. Their targets also are not supposed to be tanky against them either (unless they feel like sacrificing a helluva lot of damage).

99 Comments

DerfelMar 12, 201715 votes

It turns out giving hypermobile champions a massive boost in defensive stats while reducing the accuracy of every AP ability they can find by turning everything into a skillshot isn't healthy for the game. Who would've thought? Well everybody but the people they hired to actually deal with this sort of thing.

MissingKayoMar 12, 201710 votes

Can we not just post misleading, sarcastic, and exaggerated posts that contribute nothing but salt and promote the already stupid circlejerk? Thank you. No offense to you personally, but the point of this thread is for rational discussion, not salt and whining.

Yes, Edge+Mercurial+Mercury Treads+Hexdrinker/Maw, and then a potential lategame Guardian Angel gave too much MR. Yes, it still cut their damage a hefty bit by giving up that much penetration (Edge being the only one). Yes, it was still unhealthy because assassins aren't supposed to tank.

DerfelMar 12, 20176 votes

The only salt and whining are coming from you.

MissingKayoMar 12, 20176 votes

Take 30 seconds to read your own first post.

DerfelMar 12, 20176 votes

You still whining? Holy shit so much salt, you done circlejerking? Jesus.

MissingKayoMar 12, 20177 votes

The irony is cute. Keep entertaining me, thanks. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

DerfelMar 12, 20173 votes

lol this whiny circlejerking kid is so salty he started having a seizure. Someone call the cops.

Glory ln DeathMar 13, 20174 votes

Why would you call the cops for a seizure? You need medical personnel, not law enforcement...

MissingKayoMar 13, 20172 votes

Why are you expecting intelligence out of something as basic as that creature?

Xela SyabMar 12, 201710 votes

item 3136 giving this item more build paths would be good too.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMar 12, 20175 votes

dosn't need it....

Chromatic EagleMar 12, 20173 votes

Why not?

SaltyKrackaMar 12, 20179 votes

Mmm.

IMO, what the circlejerk tends to miss is that the 30 MR on EoN isn't much, and assassins don't actually stack the AD/MR items and do well with them.

JefftiffyMar 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Mmm.

IMO, what the circlejerk tends to miss is that the 30 MR on EoN isn't much, and assassins don't actually stack the AD/MR items and do well with them.

but 30 is a lot when mages have to spend at least 3k gold to get around it and still get pretty hard countered by the active. At least when Assassins get an ability blocked by Zhonya's it's down for 120s and doesn't hurt them to build to counter it.

So the thing is you are still comparing a lower defensive item with higher offensive value but the defense is actually better because it can be used 3 times almost in the amount of time you can Zhonya's once.

SaltyKrackaMar 12, 20171 votes

It also lasts for 5 seconds, which means that if you can avoid them for that 5 seconds, it's gone on cool down and they've got nothing out of it.

And no, 30 MR is not "a lot". I know mages are spoiled due to being able to itemize for easy magic pen and deal nearly true damage to many champs, but 30 MR without any other accompanying defensive stats is incredibly weak.

MissingKayoMar 12, 20172 votes

Most squishies have around 30 base MR. Boots is -15, Haunting is -15 but situationally built, Abyssal is +10% more damage (better against tanks tbh), and Void Staff is 35% pen, which is again better for tanks mostly.

Edge, Treads, Hexdrinker/Maw, Mercurial Scimitar, and a potential Guardian's (140 without GA, 185 with GA) in late means it will be near impossible for the mage to kill the assassin even if the assassin is caught out and gets hit by their full combo.

No pen except for Edge sacrifices a lot of their burst, but with that much AD and tanking, assassins could just hit the mage over and over until they die, in a bruiser or fighter pattern.

Annie has 87.2 armor at 18, Zhonya's gives another 45. It'll take fucking forever for the assassin to kill her probably, but she's not going to scratch him either likely, and the assassin would probably win the lengthy trade if no one interfered (which is mostly another issue as well as the mage being out of position or the mage's team not helping for some reason).

Yes, mages are supposed to lose to assassins, but I feel like the whole tanky-bruiser-fighter-duelist part is unhealthy.

SaltyKrackaMar 12, 20174 votes

I mean, eh? I get the feeling if an assassin is building tank or bruiser and still has waveclear/can just get onto an enemy and DPS them down, there are probably other problems.

Like that champion's kit. [coughfucktankfizzandekkocough]

MissingKayoMar 12, 20172 votes

Fair enough.

NineTailedMysticMar 12, 20175 votes

Assassins aren't locked into buying a specific set of boots either like most Mages are with Sorcerer's Shoes. Gives them a lot more versatility between Mobis, Mercs and Tabis where Mercs give 35 MR allowing them to spec into MR while getting a lot of damage with EoN, Maw, Mercs, and Scimitar.

MissingKayoMar 12, 20174 votes

25*

Just a correction on Treads.

LordGeovanniMar 12, 20173 votes

item 3009 item 3158 item 3111 item 3047 you want defense buy it dont not buy any defense then complain when you die just like everyone else has to give up damage for survivaility. save life steal on safe back line adcs

NineTailedMysticMar 12, 20175 votes

Yet Lethality buyers don't give up offense for defense in their boot slot, whereas Mages desperately need the MPen from Sorcerer's Shoes because the only other source of MPen is Haunting Guise into Liandry's.

ZhlandirMar 13, 20171 votes

Im doing Just fine going cdr and on rare occasions mr Boots. Surviving longer = more damage.

NineTailedMysticMar 13, 20171 votes

Depends on what kind of Mage you're playing tbh. Some of them contribute more by living longer, some need the Mpen because their utility is lower.

Mandang0Mar 12, 20175 votes

Even if the intent is to have assassins beat mages (not sure it is), can we at least admit riot's itemization is horribly rationed out? Sorry, but forcing mages into zhonya's for armor or a deadend if they want qss active, all while the ad equivalents are very strong, is bad. Leaving morello's as the overbearing auto lock AP item is bad too, and covers up the problems with the rest of AP itemization.

Go ahead and nerf the mr+ad items if you want, but let's not pretend that makes it ok to force mages into crap items just to get armor (or forcing ad champs to do the same, but at least they have boot freedom)

MissingKayoMar 12, 20174 votes

Mages aren't supposed to have that much armor at all. Zhonya's is more than enough. For instance, Annie at 18 with Zhonya's (part of her normal build anyways) with normal armor seals will have 141.2 armor, reducing any AD damage by over 58%. It's only she gets shredded if they go full Lethality to counter that because the 3Ls(Edge/Ghost/Dusk)+Cleaver+LDR will get rid of 117.06 of that armor (putting it at 24.14).

And AP and AD itemization is intentionally different as they have different weaknesses and strengths and play style types. AP doesn't need QSS. If they want it, they can buy it. They don't need an AP evolution of it. Same as AD not needing an AD Zhonya's.

And yes, assassins are intended to be the hard counter to any squishy carry type.

SaltyKrackaMar 12, 20172 votes

Hey want to guess who doesn't get to build items that give them offense and defense against physical damage?

AD Assassins.

MissingKayoMar 12, 20172 votes

To be fair, Hexdrinker/Maw, Mercurial, Edge, and then a potential lategame Guardian Angel is hell for mages. But on the other hand, without the Lethality (other than Edge) it's far less effective.

SaltyKrackaMar 12, 20171 votes

I mean, I guess? But at that point you might as well be whining about tanks stacking Locket and Visage and Banshees and Warmogs.

Sure, it's going to suck for your damage specifically against them, but it's so far from optimal it's almost hilarious.

MissingKayoMar 12, 20172 votes

Exactly the point I'm making.

JbelsMar 12, 20174 votes

No way dude, Edge of Night HAS to offer all of the defensive power it offers while still being a damage item. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

MissingKayoMar 12, 20178 votes

Can you keep the circlejerk out of here, thanks.

This is a thread to attempt rational discussion specifically because of the circlejerk from both sides.

Brain Errör 404Mar 12, 20173 votes

He was being sarcastic. While he failed to put a "/s" or "kappa" at the end of it, you can assume the tone of his wording through him emphasizing "has".

SaltyKrackaMar 12, 20174 votes

Which is why it was called out for being part of the circlejerk.

Brain Errör 404Mar 12, 20172 votes

I don't follow, care to explain? His sarcasm, at least to me, would mean that he thinks that edge of night's MR should be reduced. I don't really see how that's a part of circle jerking when Edge is clearly overloaded?

SaltyKrackaMar 12, 20175 votes

The circlejerk in this case being the "all AD items are overpowered/AP items are underpowered" one that crops up sporadically.

And if he'd contributed to discussion instead of shitposting, it wouldn't have been remarked upon.

Velzard of KozMar 12, 20171 votes

He didn't mentoin AP items being underpowered and he is right that item that provides strong defensive PASSIVE, innate MR plus two offensive stats (AD + Lethality) isn't much healthy. Banshee also provides decent defensive PASSIVE plus innate MR and yet you won't find much complaints when it's Tank item. It's not much circlejerk like people being unable to read properly.

MissingKayoMar 12, 20174 votes

AP itemization isn't underpowered. It's funky and awkward, but not underpowered.

ForgiveColourMar 12, 20173 votes

"Doing a bit too well"

Yeah just to let you know lethality got a good nerf in 2 patches already lmao where as it took rito a year to nerf rylais LUL

TheHappyReaperzMar 12, 20176 votes

Considering Rylai's was nowhere near how broken Lethality was, it makes sense. Rylai's was well rounded, and overpowered on some mages. Lethality was over-tuned, and good on basically any AD character.

SaltyKrackaMar 12, 20173 votes

...I don't know quite how to respond to something this stupid.

Rylai's was hugely overturned for basically an entire season. Lethality items, on the other hand, all just got nerfed after about...three patches.

And yes, Rylai's really was broken.

TheHappyReaperzMar 12, 20173 votes

Rylai's was OP on Cass, and maybe Brand. Other than that, it was just a good buy, since it gave health, a significant amount of AP, and its slow passive. It was never an OP item, it just had borderline abuse cases.

Regardless, it's not comparable to how broken Lethality was.

FrightningMar 13, 20173 votes

Your very first statement is wrong: Assassins are not supposed to counter Mages, they are supposed to counter Marksman. There's a Rock-Paper-Scissors type relationship between Assassins, Marksmen, and Tanks. Mages and Fighters don't strictly fit into that relationship, both are rather diverse groups. That said, there are some general constants that are defining of the Mage archetype:

1: They deal mainly magic damage. 2: They usually have ranged crowd control (and ranged basic attacks). 3: They usually have good burst damage. 4: They usually have good AoE damage. 5: They usually rely on skillshot abilities. 6: They are governed by cooldowns. 7: They usually build mostly damage items (AP), so they are squishy.

Properties 2 and 3 mean that mages are usually very threatening to Marksmen and other squishy champions in general (even Assassins should respect mages). The AoE damage means that they are generally stronger in grouped fights rather than off on their own (hence they should ideally be with the team whenever teamfights break out). Assassin's mobility means that they can often get into range of mages, and perhaps avoid important skillshots in the process. So Assassins can be quite threatening to mages, but the reverse is also true due to the range and burst damage mages have. Mages are generally unable to easily kill tanks, or fighters for that matter, and in grouped fights, their engage tools and CC can be very threatening.

MissingKayoMar 13, 20171 votes

Mages are meant to fight teams generally, and be the direct counter to marksmen carries and other mages.

Assassins are meant to be the direct hard counter to every squishy champion type. They'd counter other assassins too except for the fact both of them have enough mobility they can get away from each other or just turn it into a suicide match which is pointless when their target is the mage or marksmen carry.

Sure, mages should be able to kill an assassin if they misplay or don't respect the skillshots/CC, but an assassin is meant to be the mage's inherent hard counter. Sure, mages have insane potential burst and CC, if they land their abilities. Assassins have the mobility to get in, get out, and dodge skillshots or abilities for a reason. And they have massive burst (and in the case of AD particularly), lots of flat penetration to rip through any squishy's feeble resistances. Including that of a mage's.

Sorry, but you are entirely wrong on your main point.

FrightningMar 13, 20172 votes

No I am not, you don't understand what actually counters mages. What actually counters mages is hard CC, because mage's can't cast their abilities if they are CC'd and since they are also squishy, it doesn't take too much damage to be a threat to them if they are CC'd. Hence the real counter to mages is Tanks and Fighters. Champions that can take their burst on the chin, survive it, and then lock them down so they are completely vulnerable to getting destroyed (in the case of Fighters, many of them can easily beat mages 1v1 in a duel, tanks usually don't have enough damage to easily kill a mage 1v1, but they can certainly make it easy for a squishy champion to come in and kill them without being at risk of getting deleted by said mage).

Mages and Assassins are both good at killing all kinds of squishy champs, the difference is on what they use to make sure they can apply their burst to their target. For Assassins, it's mobility (can't run away from me), for Mages it's CC (can't run when hard CC'd). If assassins actually countered mages, then you wouldn't see mages being played mid into assassins, just as you don't see mages typically being played top into fighters (note there are a FEW mages, like Kennen and Ryze that do so, but that's a matter of specifics of their kit that make that workable). For the same reason, marksmen rarely ever show mid, (and are more likely to be seen top if outside of bot lane): Mages and Assassins counter Marksmen.

MissingKayoMar 13, 20171 votes

The mage being killed first also counters the mage. The target dodging or avoiding all of the mage's skillshots and damage also counters the mage. Gee, I wonder what champion class is good at doing that.

FrightningMar 13, 20171 votes

You're assuming the mage ends up getting killed first, but my point is: that's a huge maybe. I've played mages and assassins a ton (favorite archetypes tbqh), and I've won duels with assassins as mages many times (and vice versa). They're on a pretty level playing field overall. If they manage to avoid all your skillshots, then they outplayed you and deserve to get to kill you and survive, but at the same time, a good mage player should be able to land at least some of their skillshots due to good predictions (that's how I've won most of my duels v assassins as mages, good predictions which let me get the CC on them and combo them to dead).

Dodging a mages skillshots is an outplay, even marksmen can do that v mages (especially the ones with mobility). Also works v. assassins btw (can't tell you how many Zed dives I survived because I correctly predicted his Q placement and dodged them, thereby denying him much of his damage).

MissingKayoMar 13, 20171 votes

Fair enough. Thank you for the rational and reasonable discussion.

Sraeg2013Mar 13, 20173 votes

Those are two completely separate issues.

APs do not have next to no options without going full defensive.

ADs do and there's a lots of them.

BorblandMar 13, 20172 votes

Thats true. The assassin itemization should give as much defensive stats as the AP itemization, but assassins should rely on their mobility to dodge mages skillshots.

Now with the current itemization, they can just ignore the skillshots since they got got hexdrinker adding a magic shield of a billion hp anytime they get low.

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