@Meddler: Is Koggy getting any sort of update with the Marksmen pass?

Rebonack·Sep 24, 2015·9 votes·7,067 views

I ask because, speaking from the ADC side of things, Koggy may as well not exist in Solo. The only ADC with a lower pick rate than Kog is Quinn (who's getting a remake). And while Koggy does get picked in LCS level play, two thirds of the time he's used as a solo-mid AP.

As it stands Vayne does the Tank-Buster thing more reliably than Kog while Jinx does the long-range auto-attacker thing more reliably. Koggy really needs something other than his quintessential weaknesses as a stand-out feature from champions vying for a similar niche.

54 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirSep 24, 201521 votes

I'll be doing some small scope change to Kog for the marksman pass.

DrNovaSep 24, 20151 votes

All he really needs is a disengage IMO.

But what do I know.

Fear PopoSep 24, 201528 votes

Good lord no. Giving Kog a disengage is a horrible idea. His lack of mobility is his weakness. You do NOT want a champion with his range and damage to have an escape.

The Bíg TicketSep 24, 20153 votes

Look at tristana rofl.

BudupopsSep 24, 20151 votes

lol

Fear PopoSep 25, 20158 votes

Not even close to Kog's damage.

RebonackSep 25, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear Popo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aI1IAEbe,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-25T00:07:26.186+0000)

Not even close to Kog's damage.

She used to be a lot closer before Riot destroyed her attack speed.

Fear PopoSep 25, 20155 votes

And in return for her lower damage, she gets more mobility and tower killing and perma-range and utility. I wasn't saying that Tristana is bad, I was saying that she doesn't have Kog's damage, which is why she is allowed an escape.

Kog is the poster child for no mobility insane damage, and putting a disengage on him is a terrible idea, from a design perspective, balance perspective, and champion identity perspective.

ChaosThiefSep 25, 20151 votes

He would become vayne 2.0.

...actually no, nothing becomes vayne 2.0

dragonboytsubasaOct 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear Popo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aI1IAEbe,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-09-24T19:36:54.966+0000)

Good lord no. Giving Kog a disengage is a horrible idea. His lack of mobility is his weakness. You do NOT want a champion with his range and damage to have an escape.

And don't forget his passive.

skipPeRTh3ReaperSep 24, 20151 votes

I'd prefer it if you didn't change a thing, because I think Kog is great, but if anything, change his ult. It feels a bit shite imo. Other than that, love Kog. His Trinity Bork build is fun, his W is a satisfying skill, Q great for tank busting, and his E is pretty useful for safety.

darkdillSep 24, 20153 votes

Here's a question regarding Kog'Maw:

Have you ever considered increasing his base attack range, but lowering the bonus range that Bio-Arcane Barrage gives? It'd be something like this:

Increase Kog'Maw's attack range to 550 from 500.
Lower the bonus range of Bio-Arcane Barrage to 80/100/120/140/160.
Total attack range while Bio-Arcane Barrage is active is still 630/650/670/690/710.

What would this do? It'd make Kog'Maw far safer when his W is down. Right now his 500 attack range and complete lack of mobility means he won't even DARE to try to attack someone while his W is on cooldown. Other 500 range ADCs compensate for that lack of safety wiith mobility, but this is Koggie we're talking about. No mobility is a requirement on him.

Have you considered this kind of change? If so, is there a reason it hasn't been tried?

yay nibbersSep 24, 20155 votes

That's all by design. Active gives him hilarious range as well as %HP damage so he gets garbage range when it's down. If you were to increase his base range you'd have to reduce his total range with W active or reduce the %HP damage to even things out.

The Blue RajahSep 24, 20156 votes

That would be a pretty massive buff.

GreymooreSep 24, 20151 votes

Will the change affect AP Kog Maw or just AD Kog Maw?

KayleeTSep 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'll be doing some small scope change to Kog for the marksman pass.

My one problem of him is his garbage passive, a passive that requires you to die as an ADC, will this be fixed?

Photos of GhostsSep 24, 20153 votes

It's more of a "no case is wasted", even if they get to you you get to deal damage to their frontline

DemiluniSSep 24, 20151 votes

anything going to be done about twitch? you can't really hold his entire kit on his stealth while the rest of it is pretty mediocre

KingbiskitSep 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I'll be doing some small scope change to Kog for the marksman pass.

Dont kill AP Kog pls, thanks.

Toa of DeathSep 24, 20151 votes

Yay! My first and favorite ADC is getting something!

DanofDemaciaSep 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'll be doing some small scope change to Kog for the marksman pass.

You guys have ignored all 5 of my syndra posts so if u could tell me whats up wwith her thatd be great

Chespin2013Sep 25, 20151 votes

if you guys are looking at kog plz don't touch ap kog its a fun build to play alot of the time and brings a lot of diversity into the game plz just leave it be I be happy if your guys are looking at him for his regular version but plz don't touch anything on ap kog

Michel4ngel0Sep 25, 20153 votes

MOARRRR RANGEEEE (read this with Koggy's voice)

Leu07Sep 25, 20151 votes

Yayyy Koggy changes! he could benefit with a little gameplay update, I feel he is pretty balanced once you learn how to play him, though. But he definitely feels a bit outdated.

LaughingStaplerSep 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'll be doing some small scope change to Kog for the marksman pass.

Please don't ruin AP Kog. AP Kog's style is so different from AD Kog that it's like playing a different champion. Don't delete my favorite champion! :D I know people play badly vs him (some teams just group mid instead of split-pushing or flanking) but I actually think he's suffered enough from all the nerfs to his ult. and base stats. He's on the weak-side if anything and I don't want more random changes to AD Kog to compromise him.

Also, I fee like Tahm Kench and Kog are brothers. It would be cool if eating Kog let Kench Q poison targets etc.

RebonackSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Please don't ruin AP Kog. AP Kog's style is so different from AD Kog that it's like playing a different champion. Don't delete my favorite champion! :D I know people play badly vs him (some teams just group mid instead of split-pushing or flanking) but I actually think he's suffered enough from all the nerfs to his ult. and base stats. He's on the weak-side if anything and I don't want more random changes to AD Kog to compromise him.

Also, I fee like Tahm Kench and Kog are brothers. It would be cool if eating Kog let Kench Q poison targets etc.

For what it's worth, I've played pretty much every form of Kog you can imagine (and probably a few you can't). So I know full well the joys of AP Koggy.

How would you feel about Riot unifying the two builds like they did with AP/AD Yi when they did his gameplay update? Say, Ult going to physical damage and counting as a single target spell when he hits one unit ala Karthus' Q so he could get the full benefit of Mura? That would allow AP Kog's ult-spam playstyle to be preserved.

Or do you think it would be more fun to make him into a full-on AP Marksmen more akin to Kayle?

LaughingStaplerSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

For what it's worth, I've played pretty much every form of Kog you can imagine (and probably a few you can't). So I know full well the joys of AP Koggy.

How would you feel about Riot unifying the two builds like they did with AP/AD Yi when they did his gameplay update? Say, Ult going to physical damage and counting as a single target spell when he hits one unit ala Karthus' Q so he could get the full benefit of Mura? That would allow AP Kog's ult-spam playstyle to be preserved.

Or do you think it would be more fun to make him into a full-on AP Marksmen more akin to Kayle?

I think it's necessary that he continues to do heavy magic damage or he will be even more niche as a viable pick. If he would do physical damage mid, that shrinks a lot of the possible choices for other lanes.

SOMalphasSep 26, 20151 votes

Of those two, AP marksmen is the preferrable option, so long as he keeps his poke, as that is his calling card. Making him AD based would make items like Rylai's, Liandry's, Void Staff, and Luden's (which are all common AP Kog items) much less useful. Though making his ult single target when it hits a single person would make Mura better, It doesn't help in teamfights as much as you'd like, as you generally want to tag a few enemies at once whenever possible.

If I might offer a suggestion, his q and passive are both mediocre on both Kogs most of the time. If you want to preserve his AP playstyle while buffing his AD, then those abilities could both be more geared toward when people are close to you. Rage passive, lifesteal and spellvamp, stacking mixed pen (kayle style), attack speed, or cdr (so you get his w up more often) seems like something that might help him imo. Particularly a free (weaker) rage passive would help ad kog, as it would allow him to kite more effectively, giving him a slightly less team reliant playstyle without removing the periods of counterplay when his w is down. It also isn't on any other champs I can think of at the moment.

TheI3igDaddySep 26, 20151 votes

He really needs an update to his passive to better combat enemy mobility.

You should give him a burst of speed like Sion gets.

RebonackSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He really needs an update to his passive to better combat enemy mobility.

You should give him a burst of speed like Sion gets.

Personally, I would prefer if he just gets a completely new Innate.

Remove one of the other passives/buffs in his kit (%hp damage, range, %resist shred, attack speed), stick it on his Innate, and then buff it as needed.

SpecterVonBarenSep 26, 20151 votes

Maybe change his Q and have it be SOMETHING to do with eating so his dialogue can have some small thing connected to his kit.

RebonackSep 24, 20156 votes

The hardest part about trying to start a conversation about Kog is that no one gives a shit about Kog.

Probably explains the non-existent pick rate.

ShyvauniSep 24, 20152 votes

Kog maw is love! Kog'maw is Life. All care for and worship the mighty Kog'maw. Kog'maw shall feast endlessly on our carcasses.

On a serious note I think kog just needs a few minor tweeks, however I am uncertain exactly how they shoukd approach that. Tweek the wrong things and he could be horridly op.

RebonackSep 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Kog maw is love! Kog'maw is Life. All care for and worship the mighty Kog'maw. Kog'maw shall feast endlessly on our carcasses.

On a serious note I think kog just needs a few minor tweeks, however I am uncertain exactly how they shoukd approach that. Tweek the wrong things and he could be horridly op.

This is part of the issue with Koggy.

He's a pretty solid pick at the LCS level where teams can be built around him (though again, he ends up running AP twice as often as not). But down in Solo-land that level of organization just isn't going to happen. In Solo Koggy typically hovers around a 'balanced' win-rate about on par with MF whilst having his non-existent pick rate.

Basically, he's got the same problem Azir does. Amazing competitive presence, meh for mere mortals. How do you balance something like that? How do you make him attractive for Solo without making him an unstoppable monster in LCS?

The only thing I can think of is somehow divorcing his damage from his range. A medium range, super-high damage mode and a super-long range medium damage mode. That would let him be a bit more self-reliant in Solo while at the same time reducing the power of his ideal-use case up in LCS play.

BluePolarizerSep 26, 20151 votes

so turn him into Jinx?

RebonackSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

so turn him into Jinx?

No.

For it to work as stated on Koggy it would need to effectively toggle his whole kit. Remember, AP Kog gets as much, if not more, play as AP in high level games. Koggy's W would have to work like a transformation-type toggle.

A Koggle-Toggle, if you will.

Shared cooldowns, but drastically different ranges. Toggle off, Kog's %HP damage applies to his autos and skills, but range goes way down. THey would possibly need to get swapped over to targeted skills, too. Toggle on, range jumps up to what he's got on live, but with no %HP damage. Base damage on his skills would probably need to go down a bit, though.

That would make him less potentially oppressive in high-level games, but upping his damage at medium range so he can peel for himself with raw face-melting damage as a fall-back play pattern would allow him to function more reliably in Solo play.

Probably won't happen, though.

It sounds like he's just getting some number tweaks, which has got me a bit worried. Giving Koggy straight buffs so that he's an attractive pick in Solo would likely break him for LCS play.

BluePolarizerSep 26, 20151 votes

but that's exactly what Jinx has: self peel on E, long range ult, and a toggle to go from high damage medium range to medium (single target) damage high range.

RebonackSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

but that's exactly what Jinx has: self peel on E, long range ult, and a toggle to go from high damage medium range to medium (single target) damage high range.

Part of the problem is that Jinx, from her inception, was already Kog 2.0. Super long range auto-attacker with a poke that reveals the target, better self-peel, passive attack speed, and situational mobility (Koggy gets a speed buff when he dies, Jinx gets it when she kills stuff. Which is more useful?). Even her Ult allows her to Tankbust to a degree due to its execute, though obviously not quite as well as Kog.

It's something that has bugged me ever since Jinx was released. Obviously Riot isn't going to remake Jinx from the ground up. She's way too popular for that. Kog is neglected with the likes of Quinn and Urgot, so he seems like the obvious choice. But how do you do it? He's great in super-organized LCS play, but he's just a shitty Jinx with a little more damage or a shitty Vayne with more range over in Solo. AP Kog's Ult is overbearing in LCS play. AD Kog's W is overbearing in LCS play. But in Solo?

He needs to be altered so he's less dominating in LCS while also giving him a niche in Solo that isn't trampled all over by Vayne and Jinx.

So how do you do that? I have a hard time imagining numbers tweaks that will improve his Solo performance without making him oppressive in LCS. So it has to be something deeper. He needs a remake about as badly as Quinn, though not for quite the same reason.

I think the aforementioned Toggle could do it, but it would need to swap his whole KIT between medium-range high-damage and long-range medium-damage, unlike Jinx' which only changes her auto-attack range.

I don't know.

I really don't know.

Like I said, I don't think this is an easy problem to solve.

BluePolarizerSep 26, 20151 votes

small changes to his kit would let him be the premier long range single target anti-tank DPS marksman while still having the weakness of immobility. His theme of a devouring void monster is not well represented by his passive right now.

Jinx is much more focused on nuking squishies and AOE than on anti-tank while Vayne isn't really anti-tank; her W actually deals way more damage to squishies thanks to the flat damage and the burst.

They don't have to be big changes, just small ones. For example: autoattacking an enemy with W while they're affected by E roots them for 0.5 seconds. Q changed to a steroid like: Q (passive): gain +5/10/15/20/25% attack speed. Q (active): convert all the damage from your next attack into magic damage and deal 20/30/40/50/60 (+40% AP) bonus magic damage. 6 second CD.

RebonackSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They don't have to be big changes, just small ones. For example: autoattacking an enemy with W while they're affected by E roots them for 0.5 seconds. Q changed to a steroid like: Q (passive): gain +5/10/15/20/25% attack speed. Q (active): convert all the damage from your next attack into magic damage and deal 20/30/40/50/60 (+40% AP) bonus magic damage. 6 second CD.

Those would be straight buffs to Koggy at the LCS level, though. And he's already strong up there.

Any change to Kog should ideally have a neutral impact on his strength in high-end play. A damage boost at close to medium range. Or Koggy biting/stealing health from medium to close range targets. Something that wouldn't impact his ideal-use play pattern at all.

BluePolarizerSep 26, 20151 votes

reduce his W range scaling from 130/150/170/190/210 to 100/120/140/160/180. That way his maximum range is just a bit more than Cait, adding risk to his kit and weakening his early game poke while increasing his early game all-in (which is zero as of now). If you want the premier single target tank shredder, pay for it with safety. This range decrease is way more impactful in LCS where everyone knows their threat zones.

windwolf777Sep 24, 20157 votes

I love the little Void puppy.

UltîmaSep 24, 20151 votes

Kog is often seen in competitive either as an ADC or (more recently) mid, has a pretty stable win-rate, and encourages pretty cool team comps to be based around him. Frankly I feel as though Kog doesn't warp games to the extent of Jinx, Vayne, or Sivir. Cait and Lucian on the other hand feel extremely weak atm and could probably use a better pass than Kog. I also really hope that AP Kog isn't eliminated as he's easily become a lot of people's favourite discovery of the season.

GlumdukSep 24, 20151 votes

I think that may be one of the main problems. Kog is only viable in one or two comps that are entirely built around Kog (Juggermaw). If Kog doesn't do well, they usually falter. Most other Marksmen don't need to be built around in this way, and don't carry as much risk. I don't know much about Mid Kog - haven't really seen it. Can't comment there.

As a support player, and having my strength tied to the Marksmen's to some extent, I'm looking forward to these reworks.

iamleburkSep 24, 20151 votes

But that is currently one of the strongest if not THE strongest possible comp right now. Although not many people understand how to use it right, if used right imo it is the best possible thing to have. There is a reason most analysts say Lulu would be permabanned at worlds, her synergy with kogmaw

iamleburkSep 24, 20151 votes

but kog maw hasn't been taken mid in a couple of patches now... i agree that he only works in a protect the kog comp, but those comps are actually really good rn. That's why most analysts think Lulu will be perma-banned at worlds, because of her "protect the ADC" proficiency, and kog does the best in that type of thing.

I dont know where you are seeing him played mid, its been a while. He's been bad as mid for a while because viktor kind of counters him.

CrossetteSep 25, 20151 votes

I supported a Kog ADC yesterday as Thresh.

Their Vayne/Leona bot lane actually lost. xD

SpecterVonBarenSep 26, 20151 votes

Kog is actually one of the few marksmen that can go toe to toe with Vayne even if they're both about equal in farm and/or kills.

So long as Vayne doesn't get Kog between her and a wall it can go either way, that match up is more determined by the supports and any presence the rest of the team has bot.

RebonackSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kog is actually one of the few marksmen that can go toe to toe with Vayne even if they're both about equal in farm and/or kills.

So long as Vayne doesn't get Kog between her and a wall it can go either way, that match up is more determined by the supports and any presence the rest of the team has bot.

It depends on the item build and a number of other factor, really. But yes Koggy can potentially win a duel with Vayne. She holds most of the outplay cards, however. All Kog can do is hope that the fight doesn't break out in a location with ample walls.

While they may be on similar footing in the single-target damage department later in the game, Vayne's much safer everything is likely why she's a pub-stomper and Koggy only exists in LCS. A champion that needs a team built around them isn't particularly reliable in SoloQ.

XxBKGamerxXOct 2, 20151 votes

If anything, I think they should give KogMaw Q a little AD scaling. Having it scale with both AP and AD would not hurt AP builds and it would help with AD builds.