Can we talk about Jarvan and Garen ? Why Demacians best champs are forgotten ?

Hello, first of all i'm not english but i will do my best. I'm posting here because there is more people so it's will have more impact.

I'm asking questions about these 2 champs that i like but i feel they are forgotten by riot.

Jarvan :

I play him the most of these two. He looks cool, the kit is easy and chill to learn. I don't like jungling so i'm playing either top, either supp.

I don't want to talk about Hard MU in top lane for Jarvan, because it's not the subject. I think you must understand that laning as Jarvan vs top champs is not that easy (except the fact that you are safe, you can't really do a thing) but it's not the problem to me.

Can we talk about the W ? What is the concept of having a shield when it's not even shielding properly ? Ok, it's slow but serious guys, do you use a shield to slow ? I don't understand this shield, it's so weak. Even in jungle, it's don't help. I have played him sometimes in jungle and it's even worse than top lane to me. Especially because of mana cost on his spells (without a blue, i think you are fcked).

As top laner, i always start with , i have no choice, otherwise i'm oom. The Q is the only way to farm safe in hards MU.

Mana is really a problem on Jarvan, it's so much a problem and i don't understand because Jarvan isnt a mage. Garen don't use mana actually so why Jarvan use mana ? Btw, his cooldowns are pretty long so i don't think it's would bother to remove the mana from him.

I'm using Tank runes, i do :

Grasp of the udying (the only tank rune who is useful on Jarvan i think), the problem with Aftershock is if i miss the E Q combo, i'm really in ****. But in a other way, i feel like i would do better if i'm taking Aftershock.

Demolish vs Shield bash (sometimes i do Shield Bash but i prefer Demolish)

Conditioning, because of bonus armor and rm but some people take bone plating and i think it's would be more suitable.

Overgrowth, because the shield is useless, so add 5% to Jarvan shield is not really powerful.

And then, i'm picking Sorcery :

Manaflow band : Because it's my only way to have mana and to not get oom in lane.

Gathering storm : Because i don't know what to do, i'm picking sorcery for manaflow band. Otherwise i would pick Precision.

And yet, i'm still very weak. Even with tanks item. I know Jarvan is not a tank but what he is first ?

Is he an assassin ? Because people usually build him full AD and lethality : I have saw Jarvans building this : .

This build is good, with Domination runes, it's lit but it's not suit Jarvan. I mean, Jarvan wear a big golden armor, why would you make him weak and only focusing him on dmg ? I know this build is OP, because you are oneshooting people with R with this build.

But it's not suitable for the character. I mean Jarvan is not an assassin, he is a warrior, a leader warrior maybe but he is still a warrior.

Why would you want to build him full lethality and oneshooting people with R ? (i'm not against various builds but i feel like lethality Jarvan is the only one who is worth to play).

Why when you build him like a fighter (tanky with some dmg), you have less impact than building him like an assassin ? It's dont have sense.

I feel like or you build him full AD like an assassin, or you go full tank. Jarvan isnt a fighter because compared to Irelia, Xin Zhao or Fiora, his dueling abilities are lows.

But the thing is that the character is a fighter actually. What kind of assassin wear a big armor like that ? The shield is so low, yet you look at him with this armor, he should be tanky. Also his kit is made to rush in the melee and engage ennemy team. Everytime i engage with Jarvan, i'm feared because i'm so weak, i know i will die in less than 2 seconds and the shield won't help me at all.

I know the shield is supposed to be stronger when you are surronded by ennemis, but when you are surronded, that means you take more dmg so...

Let's talk about the flag. It's the perfect item to get free assist. Jarvan is like Sona supp : You can do nothing but pressing one spell and get assist easy.

It's your unique way to engage.

But why does it's deal magical dmg ? A flag is made of steel and tissue. Where do you find something magical in steel and tissue ? Logics sometimes...

The AS given is interessting but not for Jarvan. As i said, Jarvan isnt really a fighter, or you build him like a offTank, or you build him Lethality and you will be the assassin.

Jarvan is based on his spells, his AA are pretty weak. With Lethality Jarvan, you kill people with E Q AA + R. You don't need AS for that.

With Tank Jarvan, it's has more utility but AS isnt very powerful on Jarvan. The AS given by the flag is good for your teammates and especially the ADC and the jungler/top laner if he is AD. Not for Jarvan himself.

And the mana cost also...

I don't understand Jarvan passive also, i know it's make more dmg on target on the first hit but i would prefer another passive. 8% actual HP, and it's actual HP, not max HP.

So it's mean that it's deal more dmg when the target is full life. But if i engage the target with E Q, she will have less Hp, and the passive will do less dmg. You see the problem ? It's not helping to duel, in lategame it's completely useless...

Except farming monster or minions, this passive isnt very useful. Maybe in early because yes, at lvl 1 on a full HP target it's surprising but honestly, it's bad.

I feel like the champ is only reliable because of his ultimate and his flag who is helping you to have assist. You don't have big dmg except if you go lethality. You can't tank because you are so weak and your shield is so weak. Mana is a problem too, passive is not useful...

I think we have a problem of identity on Jarvan. Players are building him like an assassin while he is not an assassin (talking about apparence and lore) but his kit is made for that so it's make him a reliable assassin who has big zone physical dmg.

Garen :

Btw, Garen win rate is higher than Jarvan and yet, i find Garen harder to play cause you don't have mobility. With Jarvan, you have E Q, and ulti to reach your ennemies. Here, you have only a little MS boost.

You will laugh but i'm bad as Garen, because everytime i try to play him, i feel like i'm countered. I can't reach ennemy team, i'm zoned... Also, Garen teamfight utility is really near 0. You are a good tank but you don't have other thing to offer to your team.

Your laning is good, on early only and only if you win. Because in that case you will be but useless asf.

Garen is a commander, and he has no interactions with teammates. What do a commander do in real life ? He gives orders to his soldiers, he gives them courage, he give them hope and spirit of fighting.

Yet, Garen has nothing of that. He is just a brainless soldier who spin until his ennemy are death. I don't even feel Garen is a commander. At least Jarvan has a flag who give AS to teammates so you can feel he is a Prince and he gives orders and people follow him. But Garen, not a single teammate interaction while it's his job in Demacia.

His passive is WTF. First, Garen is described as Early game champ, because in late, he is pratically useless so he is mostly early and mid game.

But the passive is strong in late only, hahaha ! So you play an early champ with a lategame passive, which is original...

Same thing for the W that you must stack, it's made to upgrade your lategame but Garen isnt lategame so...

Same thing with the E !! The spell is stronger in lategame but Garen is not a good lategame champ. Also the spell make more dmg when the target is alone, but isnt the concept of this spell is pushing your lane and farming while harassing your opponent ? So you have zone dmg but it's better to use it on a single target which is original too.

Let's be honest, Garen dmg vs Darius dmg.

These two are colossus, these two have similars kits. Yet, Darius in lategame, if good played, will be able to deal serious dmg. While Garen has nothing. Garen will be fighting the ennemy frontlane but his dmg in late aren't good. Your only chance is to get your ulti passive on the frontlane.

Oh, let's talk about the ulti passive. It's so random and i don't think you can balance a champ on a random passive like that.

If you are both 0/0/0 on top lane for example (you and your opponent), if ennemy Caitlyn kill your support, she will get the mark. But she is in bot lane ! How does it's help you ? So you must go in bot lane and kill Caitlyn who is marked ?

If you want your laning opponent to get the passive, you must feed. Yeah, if you are losing your lane, the ennemy will have the mark. But if you are losing, why would you fight ? I mean, if the ennemy darius is 2/0/0, even if he is marked, why would i go on him ? I'm feeding, i'm losing my lane but the mark is on him so it's mean i should fight him and try to kill him with the bonus true dmg.

This passive is just a no sense. Btw, it's would suit Kayle more. Garen isnt a punisher like Kayle. He is a commander. His job is not to punish criminals but to protect and defend Demacia. Kayle on the other side is a punisher. She is the vision of the justice.

This ulti passive is made for Kayle if you think about lore, about personnality, it's the job of Kayle to send justice to criminals. Maybe Caitlyn too. Caitlyn and Kayle are punishers, so having a criminal that you must stop in the game would suit them more than Garen.

Why not simply make the ulti true dmg without passive ? LIke Darius one ? Just reduce the dmg and it's will be fine. Or maybe change it. Why not change the ulti and instead of having a finisher, make something more into Garen job and personnality ?

SUM UP :

Don't get me wrong, i don't think these 2 champs are the worst of the game but i feel like the way you play them don't suit their job, their personnality, their look...

Jarvan with a big armor who is building full lethality and who has a bad shield who can't protect him. The flag who is dealing magic dmg... Has manacost on his spells while he don't use magic.

Garen who is a commander but has no teammates interactions, have a "punish the criminal" while it's would be more suitable for Kayle or Caitlyn, who is early oriented but has a passive, a W and his E who become better in lategame while his utilty is decreasing.

It's my point of view, so i would like to see your point of view on these champs. Does the gameplay reflect their personnality ? Their characters ? Does their look match with the way you play them ?

Thanks for the feedback.