Yasuo needs to be punished for using his windwall.

Aatrox Mid 1v5·Sep 8, 2016·64 votes·4,677 views

Yes, another yasuo thread. hell i already know riot arent going to do anything to it even though it clearly goes against their champion design philosophy.

I along with many other people think yasuo should get punished for using it. look at braum, he does block a lot of damage but not all, meaning he still takes some of the damage and has to position close to the enemy team to protect his. while yasuo can just cast it (While moving as well) and not get punished at all. look at it this way, if you dont pay your taxes, then there will be obvious consequences. so how can yasuo not pay his taxes at the expense of nothing?

EDIT: I do realise now that punishing him outside of laning phase for using it wont be healthy. Just leave it as one of those abilities that tilt people I suppose.

203 Comments

Colgate GatorSep 8, 201654 votes

It should cost him flow, and the duration would depend in how much of it he expended, ala Tryndamere's heal.

ValyrianBladeSep 8, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=Postal Badger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZoEB97EA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-09-08T21:14:10.358+0000)

It should cost him flow, and the duration would depend in how much of it he expended, ala Tryndamere's heal.

This sounds good.

Casting windwall costs all remaining flow. Length of windwall is same as current if flow is at 100. Otherwise it is 50% + X%flow/2 for duration (i.e. minimum is half as long at 0 flow, and scales up to full length).

Further, Yasuo should be unable to generate flow while windwall is active.

Thus, when windwall expires, Yasuo definitely does not have a shield available and if he has stuck around he is susceptible to poke. Would definitely introduce a lot of counterplay to his laning phase (which currently I would imagine is: use shield to absorb trade damage if up, use windwall to negate if not, repeat).

Note: I haven't played mid in a while. I never had problems with Yasuo when I did play mid (as Ahri). I don't have problems against him top. I just always found him annoying, albeit beatable.

S0kaXSep 8, 20164 votes

{quoted}

This sounds good.

Casting windwall costs all remaining flow. Length of windwall is same as current if flow is at 100. Otherwise it is 50% + X%flow/2 for duration (i.e. minimum is half as long at 0 flow, and scales up to full length).

Further, Yasuo should be unable to generate flow while windwall is active.

Thus, when windwall expires, Yasuo definitely does not have a shield available and if he has stuck around he is susceptible to poke. Would definitely introduce a lot of counterplay to his laning phase (which currently I would imagine is: use shield to absorb trade damage if up, use windwall to negate if not, repeat).

Note: I haven't played mid in a while. I never had problems with Yasuo when I did play mid (as Ahri). I don't have problems against him top. I just always found him annoying, albeit beatable.

If this is introduced Yasuo will finally be balanced, or at least not cancer

takeZOOOOOOSep 8, 20167 votes

oh yea sure this would be a good idea after you revert all the nerfs including the sweeping blade damage cap at 50% nerf

S0kaXSep 8, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yasuo No Kage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZoEB97EA,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-08T22:05:09.058+0000)

oh yea sure this would be a good idea after you revert all the nerfs including the sweeping blade damage cap at 50% nerf

Your name. http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/538/115/852.png

takeZOOOOOOSep 8, 20168 votes

why wouldn't it be? my name just indicates im dedicated to the champ and now his weaknesses and how hard shit gets somethimes also you're ideas suggest gutting his defensive shit and him already being squishy as fuck is just sad, so since u want defensive abilities gutted alright lets do it but revert nerfs p good trade off tbqh

ElikainSep 9, 20161 votes

Well, Yasuo is an assassin by nature, you are supposed to be squishy but strong when you decide to fight. His bruiser builds and getting some cheeky crit (Phantom Dancer) while building tanky and purely getting free damage with his use of the ultimate for the sole purpose of getting that free old Last Whisper's buff was just being dumb.

You got shields, free armor pen, doubled crit, reduced 12% damage taken, HP, free slow on AAs and Q and you still got to deal damage with no actual damage in his kit? Surely you don't considered this as fair, right?

The Last BalladSep 9, 20163 votes

He is a skirmisher (long drawn out fights) not an assassin(quick death by explosion).

redfeenixSep 8, 20167 votes

Nah having the duration change is a little too random for the likes of League. Just have it so you cannot cast Wind Wall unless you have full flow.

Sightless66Sep 9, 20169 votes

Just have it so you cannot cast Wind Wall unless you have full flow.

So, you can't cast it unless you're in a state where any random damage will pop it? When the heck is he supposed to throw this out in a teamfight? The very instant it starts, regardless of whether or not it's actually useful? How the hell he is supposed to ever it reactively? Is he just supposed to throw it out the instant he hits full flow and hope that this enemies throw shit into it? Is that really how a skill should work?

I'm just saying, it seems like pretty terrible design if a skill basically says "throw out this long CD skill the instant it's available, regardless of whether or not you actually need it right now, or you don't get to use it at all".

LimrickSep 9, 20161 votes

Ult gives full Flow instantly, but it really should just cost half Flow, not all of it.

Sightless66Sep 9, 20164 votes

Ult gives full Flow instantly

Sure, but it also locks you up for the ult animation, during which any random damage from any member of the team you didn't hit immediately pops your shield and leaves you unable to cast windwall. This would make ulting in a teamfight a pretty guaranteed way to ensure that you won't be casting windwall for the next few seconds.

it really should just cost half Flow, not all of it.

I personally think the entire idea of using flow as a resource is inherantly flawed. Having a resource that serves primarily as a way for random enemy damage to disable combat skills is going to be incredibly frustrating to play with. It's unnecessarily annoying relative to the amount of power it takes away, and the counterplay it introduces is too straightforward and easy to utilize for his opponents. On top of that, the expectation it places on Yasuo is ridiculous. "Take no damage, or lose access to your skill". Taking 1 point of damage and losing access to what should ideally be a reactive spell is silly. That's not something he can control, and expecting players to control it is absolutely unreasonable.

Flow really isn't set up to be a good resource, because good resources don't deplete to 0 instantly based on something as uncontrollable taking a single point of damage. It would be atrociously unfun to actually use, and it's not like this is our only option for balancing and/or redesigning Yasuo. We're not lacking for options here. We don't need to jump on something as bad as this.

I think it may be cathartic for people to see Yasuo be given a resource given the general resentment the boards have for manaless champions, but I don't think it's actually good design. Regardless of how much I may dislike him, I don't see any good reason to select a balancing option whose primary effect would be annoying his players, particularly when we have tons of other options for balancing him.

Mindworm JimSep 9, 20162 votes

Random thought: What if casting Windwall reset his Steel Tempest stacks and prevents him from acquiring more stacks while the wall is active? Force him to choose between offensive or defensive tools.

Disclaimer : I hold no opinion regarding whether or not Yasuo needs balance changes at this time.

RalanrSep 8, 201616 votes

You could argue that putting it on cooldown is the punishment, but no one is going to buy that.

Personally I've always felt that his windwall should consume all of his current flow.

Aatrox Mid 1v5Sep 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

You could argue that putting it on cooldown is the punishment, but no one is going to buy that.

Personally I've always felt that his windwall should consume all of his current flow.

yeah, ive always thought this is how it should have been from the start

GayFluffyUnicornSep 8, 20167 votes

Since i am still salty about Zed ending up in the trashcan and it is actually the same thing i will continue: Rito about Zed: Zed players should weigh out when to use their W. For escape, going in, harass or farm and not just spam it. So they set it on a VERY high cooldown which is the main reason zed is in the trashcan right now, also they said he shouldn't have such a high mobility. Then there is yasuo. DASH DASH DASH DASH DASH DASH DASH DASH DASH DASH DASH on a 1 sec cooldown. And a windwall blocking nearly every ability in the game on a lower cooldown than Zeds W. Tell me how this is fair or how this is okay to riot? Just how? It would be a punishment if it had an actual cooldown but so far his W cooldown is nearly on par with Zed W (his only mobility spell, range harass), Leblanc W (same thing), Illaoi E (which is by the way bullshit to hit and eats loads of mana). And the absolutely worst thing about his windwall, which if fixed wouldn't need any other nerf imo, is how it is interacting with other spells. It is supposed to block "projectiles". Talon W? okay. Lee Sin Q ? meh but okay. AAs? Yeah sure. Zed Q? Yeah why not. Trump wall? HELL NO. Since this game i despise yasuo and want him out of the game. You fucking insec ult him as azir in the tower and he just Ws and nothing happens. He won that fight since i just didn't attack anymore, i was so shocked by this i refused to keep playing. Such a fucking bullshit ability. Same with Nami Ult and several other abilities who are coded as projectiles and blocked when they obviously shouldn't be blocked. So i'd change his W to only block AAs or nerf his cooldown into oblivion.

ModAcademy KaynSep 8, 20167 votes

Yas can't use his E to run away outside of a lane. Yas's Windwall is 26 Sec CD. Azir wall isn't deleted by Windwall, but it'll stop where Yas's windwall is placed.

Same with Nami Ult and several other abilities who are coded as projectiles and blocked when they obviously shouldn't be blocked

It is because they are projectiles. It fits, no matter how mad/butthurt people get with it, if it is a projectile, it will be blocked. There is no inconsistency here.

NineTailedMysticSep 9, 20165 votes

Yas can't use his E to run away outside of a lane.

Nah, he'll just use his base 345 MS and possibly Zeal item %MS to outrun you.

JunkοSep 9, 20163 votes

Or maybe you can use your hard CC now that is completely immobile to easily kill him?

NineTailedMysticSep 9, 20161 votes

LeetriSep 9, 20164 votes

He used his windwall to stop all your harass earlier and now there's another 16 seconds before he can use it again. Or you just play Viktor and laugh at him trying to block your W.

LimrickSep 9, 20163 votes

It would be neat for his kit to actually, you know, use Flow. They made a brand new resource that only does one thing. Makes no sense. It would be cool if they made Flow a proper resource, like energy, charged by movement still. That way things like his Wind Wall and Last Breath actually have a real cost to use. And for fucks sake, stop letting him hold onto the tornado for so long. Actually, what if his tornado cost Flow per second as he holds onto it? That way he sacrifices defense for more zoning/offensive pressure.

Akali is SO HOTSep 9, 201615 votes

That makes no sense. You don't punish a champion for using part of their kit. That would be like making Jhin's auto attacks cost mana because he needs to be punished for auto attacking. Braum and Yasuo aren't even close to the same champion and the comparison between their two walls is always stupid. Yasuo can't move his wall while Braum can. Braum is a tank and Yasuo is not so he is supposed to soak up damage which is what his wall allows him to do. I'm just baffled that people have a hard time dealing with an ability that has a 26 second cooldown at rank one and is maxed last.

You people act like it has a 0 second cooldown and he's invincible while he's using it. Jesus Christ. Stop being bad at this game and instead of QQing about him learn how to play against him. There is nothing unfair at all about his windwall.

Aatrox Mid 1v5Sep 9, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZoEB97EA,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-09-09T00:09:45.747+0000)

That makes no sense. You don't punish a champion for using part of their kit. That would be like making Jhin's auto attacks cost mana because he needs to be punished for auto attacking. Braum and Yasuo aren't even close to the same champion and the comparison between their two walls is always stupid. Yasuo can't move his wall while Braum can. Braum is a tank and Yasuo is not so he is supposed to soak up damage which is what his wall allows him to do. I'm just baffled that people have a hard time dealing with an ability that has a 26 second cooldown at rank one and is maxed last.

You people act like it has a 0 second cooldown and he's invincible while he's using it. Jesus Christ. Stop being bad at this game and instead of QQing about him learn how to play against him. There is nothing unfair at all about his windwall.

well first of all if youre not suppose to punish a champion for using part of their kit then why do nerfs exist? i was adding on to why people think he has a toxic kit, not saying hes broken. yes his w has a high cd which it should have but that doesnt mean the active isnt obnoxious. he can just use his windwall during a trade and you just cant do anything. thats why i think he shouldnt be able to just decide a trade with the push of a button. and most of the time you CANT trade after because he most likely chunked you during the trade. you can bring up stats all you want in an argument, but statistics is not equal to the experience.

Akali is SO HOTSep 9, 20167 votes

Nerfs exist when I champion is doing something they aren't intended to do, have too much hidden power, have power in areas they shouldn't have, or do what they are good at too well. That has nothing to do with punishing a champion for using their kit. Why would an ability ever be designed to punish a champion? The only one I can think of is Blitz's self slow on his W but that's only because his W was allowing him to speed across the map with almost 0 downtime.

If you know he has his wall up then use your projectiles on him before he uses his wall and if he uses his wall before you use them then don't blow your whole combo into his wall. It's really not that hard. You should also have a means of hurting him that doesn't include projectiles for most champions. 26 seconds is plenty of time for your abilities to come off cooldown to hit him before his wall comes back up.

he can just use his windwall during a trade and you just cant do anything

This mindset is why you lose to Yasuo and everyone who posts these threads all have this mindset.

SalronSep 8, 201611 votes

The punishment is going on cooldown

Aatrox Mid 1v5Sep 8, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZoEB97EA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-09-08T21:58:19.816+0000)

The punishment is going on cooldown

yeah, and thats the same for every champions ability also, mr face the win

SalronSep 8, 20168 votes

So then what's the issue

Akali is SO HOTSep 9, 20169 votes

He's invincible while he's using it and he forces everyone whose Silver and below to use all of their projectile abilities on it while it's being used. Should just make it cost 100% of his max health then it would be fair lmao xD

NarasimhaSep 9, 20165 votes

I mean, you literally may as well argue "Yi should be punished for using his heal" or "Jax should be punished for using Counterstrike."

WoonStruckSep 9, 20162 votes

Yi is punished for using his heal. He can't move attack, or anything.

Jax can do dick-all when his counterstrike is down unless he's fighting the worst team comp ever...unlike Yasuo.

EnosetcSep 9, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Yi is punished for using his heal. He can't move attack, or anything.

Jax can do dick-all when his counterstrike is down unless he's fighting the worst team comp ever...unlike Yasuo.

yi is given massive damage reduction when channeling w and good players actually use this in fights to mitigate a significant portion of the enemy's return damage. if he does it at the wrong time he makes himself a sitting duck

jax still has considerable damage and a resistance steroid on his ult when his e is down, which he can use to outduel most opponents if he's used his e successfully. if he didn't he doesn't have the tool that makes him such an amazing duelist and potentially puts himself at a disadvantage in a fight

in neither case is the champion being punished for using their skills if they use the skills correctly

WoonStruckSep 9, 20162 votes

And Yasuo would not be punished for using his windwall correctly either.

Using windwall to avoid significant retaliation in place of your shield would be considered using it correctly.

You didn't exactly provide a counterargument.

Fact still stands that Yasuo does not need two major defenses (three if you count ult reset) while being an extremely mobile DPS champion.

EnosetcSep 9, 20163 votes

you argued that yi is punished for using his heal and that jax can't do much without counterstrike

i argued that they weren't

what counterargument were you looking for that i didn't provide?

KewlipoSep 8, 201611 votes

"COOLDOWN: 26 / 24 / 22 / 20 / 18"

Seems pretty punishing to me.

MunchCrunchLunchSep 8, 201610 votes

no champion has a kit that can deny you farm. except yasuo.. yeah ww cd i high however why should he care. he has his flow shield that will take any poke also he will outduel pretty much everyone early game. especially around minions

ModAcademy KaynSep 8, 20162 votes

Braum?

Akali is SO HOTSep 9, 20169 votes

Your most played champion is Darius and you think Yasuo is the only champion that can deny farm?

Spaceman5pffSep 9, 20161 votes

Zoning off farm and straight up denying the ability to hit the creep is very different

JunkοSep 9, 20164 votes

Go ahead and play Yasuo and use windwall to try to deny farm.

Tell me where that gets you, especially since it stops enemy caster attacks too, so in the end maybe you deny 1 melee minion in exchange for being vulnerable for half a minute.

Spaceman5pffSep 9, 20161 votes

See when I play against yasuo, they use the wind wall to stop me from hitting his minions as they are dying to my turret, so he gets more denial out of it.

JunkοSep 9, 20163 votes

You must suck giant shit at trading and poking then if he shoves you under your own turret and still somehow didn't have to use his windwall.

JESUSSAYSNOSep 9, 20162 votes

if you use a 26 second cd and your only real form of defense against ranged opponents, on one of the squishiest champs in the game, to deny cs, you're legit retarded.

If I see a yas waste his wall to deny me 2 creeps, i know he fucked up and I have 24 seconds to fucking murder his ass.

JunkοSep 9, 20162 votes

Heimerdinger, Teemo, Quinn.

Fondling GemsSep 8, 20166 votes

My biggest issue is that he never went through what kalista did. She had too much power and was both good solo and grouped. People decided they liked her personal play more so Riot nerfed her oathsworn interactions.

Yasuo suffers the same issue in that he is great alone and with a team (think malphite)

I feel like either his 1v1 or teamfight interactions need to be cut back.

Honesty I would be fine if his only nerf was that he either couldn't ult off ally knockups or his 1v1 got nerfed.

Currently he is just too good at both.

JESUSSAYSNOSep 9, 20162 votes

he's not good in group play though. He hasn't been viable in pro play since preseason warlords cheese.

General Esdeath Sep 9, 20165 votes

Well, it can't move (Like Braum can move his body), has a long CD (Double Braum's at rank 5), and is small until ranked up. I'd say he's punished enough by being exposed for the next 30 seconds early on.

PyrokineticmageSep 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Well, it can't move (Like Braum can move his body), has a long CD (Double Braum's at rank 5), and is small until ranked up. I'd say he's punished enough by being exposed for the next 30 seconds early on.

The problem with windwall is its a broken type of support ability (It's effectiveness is near an ult as it can negate ults and infinite damage for the ENTIRE team) on a damage carry champion.

Honestly I don't mind windwall. What I do mind is that his actual ult is on a low CD along with having an ability near ult level. And don't use the argument that Yasou ult is situational because it ain't due to how easy it is to get a tornado. He can just sit back and spam tornadoes more than Bltiz can hook due to being manaless and low CD.

Not to mention team composition completely negates the "situational" argument.

General Esdeath Sep 9, 20163 votes

If his team builds a knock up comp they're lacking damage. Just stomp early game and you win.

JESUSSAYSNOSep 9, 20164 votes

One of the most squishy champs in the game has an ability that stops him from being instantly deleted by projectiles. the horror.