@Meddler Plans for Wit's End?

Weathered·Apr 29, 2016·38 votes·3,579 views

Unique Passive: Basic attacks deal 3% of the target's maximum health in bonus physical damage (max 75 vs monsters and minions) on hit.

Wit's End is an item rarely used, and limited to use on Sated Devourer champs (with exceptions like Kayle or Teemo). Since the new Bloodrazer enchantment will be doing physical damage rather than magic damage (meaning that Wit's End's MR shred passive won't be effective), will Wit's End have any planned changes or a rework to make it more popular?

http://imgur.com/7xarfkY

(Edit: Kind of disappointing that there is still no Red response. Just wanted someone on the gameplay team's thoughts :/)

71 Comments

Irelia BotApr 29, 201612 votes

Bascially it is an item that people only buy when they are stomping the shit out of the enemy team and want more damage. AKA I win regardless of it I get it or not. While it has alright syndergy with Sated and Rageblade it is not oftne worth getting which is why the buy rate is so low. AKA onyl Warwick ever gets it more then once in a blue moon.

I jsut want season 2 wit's end back since it was good for the cost and effective but bad for the late game slot efficency making it have clear pros and cons. And yes it was by all means core on Irelia back then.

WeatheredApr 29, 20161 votes

Ya, I was hoping this post would draw attention and have Meddler consider reworking or changing it to be something better and more useful as an item.

BastionKrossApr 29, 20162 votes

The problem is the stats it gives.

It makes your magic damage more effective, so that narrows potential buyers down to champs that have a good amount of magic damage in their kits.
It also gives attack speed, which further narrows the champs down to those that do a bunch of magic damage and auto attack a lot.
It also has an on-hit for damage instead AD or AP, even further narrowing down the number of champs that can use it efficiently.

And that mirrors the results of the graph: The one champion with a lot of magic damage, that scales well with attack speed, and that has excellent synergy on-hits loves this item to death. The next best champs include Kayle and Teemo, who can both build just about any item in the game and get away with it.

I'm all for niche items, but you could make Wit's End a "Warwick-only" item and no other champs could complain all that much. That is far too narrow of a niche.

AeszarckApr 29, 20161 votes

Huh, thanks a lot for explaining that.

Didn't really know why it is so unpopular. (I did know that I didn't like buying it.)

DarkRitualApr 29, 20162 votes

Other on-hit-bonus-damage items almost always are better when a situation would call for wit's end.

TonyTonyMordecaiApr 29, 20161 votes

What did season 2 wits end have?

Irelia BotApr 29, 20164 votes

{quoted}

What did season 2 wits end have?

a cost of 2000 to 2200 42 on hit magic damage 40% attack speed 30 MR Auto attacks increase your MR by 5 for 5 seconds stacking up to 4 times

It did not have the MR "stealing" on the enemy and it did not need that to be an all around good item. It was stat efficient for for price but not the best for late game slot efficiency since other items had more to offer in total.

It had a reason to be bought back then for more then WW or once in a blue moon on kayle or teemo.

Yes Riot you could fix Wit's end by making it like it was in season 2. This 3+ year experiment on it has been by all means a failure.

AlienPrimateApr 29, 20161 votes

It was 42 on everything I thought.

Irelia BotApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It was 42 on everything I thought.

Only the on hit magic damage was 42.

I cannot recall the others off the top of my head so i am trying to get the best info I can that sounds right of (40% attack speed and 30 MR + 5MR for 5 seconds after auto attacking stacking up to 4 times )but it wasn't until well after season 3 had hit that they made the attack speed 42% before buffing it to 50 and then making it where it is today AT 40 for everything.

TaoistMasterApr 29, 20162 votes

well that explains DrMundo

He buys what he pleases

JacknifeApr 29, 20164 votes

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they just scrapped it. Any change they do to it just makes the item broken. With all they the ideas they must've had for it, I'm sure by now they're at their... item 3091 .

... I'm not sorry.

LeagueIsMehApr 29, 20163 votes

I love it on Gnar, it works super well with his passive. Plus, since Gnar is ranged, you have a much greater likelyhood of facing an AP top who can farm from range.

Soon Heimerdinger... soon...

forrestoApr 29, 20162 votes

anyone remember when wits end was always the first thing you bought on shyvana? those were the days.

Irelia BotApr 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

anyone remember when wits end was always the first thing you bought on shyvana? those were the days.

And Irelia when facing an AP champ.

Yes I remember that all too well.

TaoistMasterApr 29, 20162 votes

its the build path that sucks.

I wish it was more like this: item 3052 + item 1033 + item 1042 = item 3091

SenorBobbersApr 29, 20162 votes

The goal for wit's end when it was initially created way back was to counter mages. Nowadays we have that ridiculous maw for that. What i'd suggest (aside from removing maw completely and replacing it with wits end :3) is to make wit's end a more "offensive-oriented" alternative for fighting against mages. I'd recommend making it function similar to Bloodthirster - damage against champions (perhaps only against those who have higher AP than they do AD?) builds a shield on your hero that only absorbs magic damage. Of course, this would only make mages even worse off than they already are currently...

Hullabaloo907Apr 29, 20161 votes

i know win rates on items tend to be skewed towards higher numbers, but +75% winrate seems like alot.

Zero Skill TankApr 29, 20163 votes

No, not really. If Kog or Master are buying wits end they are most likely stomping and would win with any item. That's why number is that high.

MunchCrunchLunchApr 29, 20163 votes

its not a bad item on kog maw. its however bad on yi.

WeatheredApr 29, 20161 votes

Only 2.4% of the people who play Yi build Wit's End, so if that very small amount of people all are either high ELO players or players who are getting lucky wins, the item's winrate will be falsely high. As popularity increases, generally speaking, the item's winrate will even out.

MunchCrunchLunchApr 29, 20161 votes

i never seen a master yi builds wits. and I played 2.5k matches in total. i built it myself once or twice. its quite terrible on master yi.

Need Gold 4 TentApr 29, 20161 votes

It used to work on old bruiser Yi (since he had no real AD scalings then) to mix up his damage a bit as a form of pseudo penetration. It was a midgame item, where enemies would've likely bought some armor against him. Then his wits end would give him some magic damage on top of his Q magic damage to bypass that armor, all while being a rather cheap buy.

As it turned out, it ended up a midgame item since it sucked for lategame (a full MR item was more worth the slot, or a full damage item).

On new Yi though, yea it stinks since he's balanced around having to build AD to scale now.

LlaniteApr 29, 20161 votes

Why do you care if something you do not use "not useful"?

If you don't find it useful, go buy something you think is better, stop trying to ruin other people fun because you're not invited to the party.

WoonStruckApr 29, 20161 votes

What's the point of an item that doesn't have a use?

Currently there is no 'best-use' case for Wit's End.

You're better off with Rageblade, IBG, Sunfire, or other tank items on pretty much anyone else that would want this item.

If only 2 champions are using an item, and not even commonly at that, it goes to show that an item needs changes.

Hullabaloo907Apr 29, 20162 votes

You can't really compare whits to iceborn and sunfire, since they are armor items. Abbysal scepter is the closer item, and most champs who would build wits build abyssal instead

LlaniteApr 29, 20162 votes

it is must-buy if you are WW, Hybrid Teemo, Shyv and other attack speed build.

Guinsoo does physic and close to useless on ranged champs (except maybe Kog), IBG, sunfire are for tanky bruisers.

I don't see how it hurts anyone just staying there. What does the game possibly gain from having the item removed? 1 pixie less?

WoonStruckApr 29, 20161 votes

Used to be must-buy on them.

Guinsoo's is fine on many ranged champions. Even sees LCS use on some ADCs.

Nobody using it doesn't do the item justice. Nobody's talking about removing it. Everyone's talking about changing it in some fashion so that its usable.

TTUPhoenixApr 29, 20169 votes

Zephyr was specifically deleted because Riot believed that it was not useful.

Meanwhile, Ohmwrecker got its third rework.

LlaniteApr 29, 20162 votes

It was removed because certain champs benefit so much from its high gold-efficiency while most other champs cannot take advantage of it, thus, unfair.

Not the case with Wit's end. The thing is not overbearing on anyone.

ElysMustacheApr 29, 20161 votes

Hey I have a 100% winrate when building Ohmwrecker this season.

xxxDogmanxxxApr 29, 20161 votes

OMG, Ohmwrecker OP! Please nerf, Riot-senpai!

WarlockLawApr 29, 20165 votes

That actually is the case with Wit's End. Warwick gains a huge benefit from it relative to any other champion in the game, thus why he builds it far more than other auto-attack reliant champions. Warwick is the only auto-attack focused champion in the game with no ad or health scalings in the game and he is one of the few that deal considerable magic damage. Champs that scale with ad can pick up Maw while champions that scale with health can grab Banshee/Spirit Visage. Warwick is the only champion that would miss Wit's End if it were to be deleted.

Mai Waifu IreliaApr 29, 20161 votes

I'd miss building it as Irelia vs Vlad (prob not optimal anymore but her build path gets boring) ... Then I remember I haven't had to play that matchup in like a straight year Rip wits end

WarlockLawApr 29, 20161 votes

The mr shred doesn't really help Irelia too much because she deals mostly true/physical damage. Still pretty good, but I'd rather rush spirit visage for that

WeatheredApr 29, 20163 votes

I'm pretty sure Ohmwrecker can't be removed because it is a homage item to a player or person, like Total Biscuit of Rejuvination.

MunchCrunchLunchApr 29, 20161 votes

zehpyr was a good item on jax irelia and teemo. great item. it was removed to force non crit aaers to build rageblade and devoure

paisyApr 29, 20161 votes

They can't remove Ohmwrecker because it was made for a player

WeatheredApr 29, 20161 votes

I'm not saying it's useless, I'm saying that it's too specific so it's only useful on certain champs. And I'm not trying to "ruin the fun", I'm asking if Riot is considering this so I can either use the shit out of it prior to a rework, or get ready to change some of my playstyles.

LlaniteApr 29, 20161 votes

Nothing wrong with something being used by only some champs. Everyone should not build the same, i.e. build diversity.

If you have an idea about a new item, feel free to post it along with "why this item would be a great fit". Not "xyz should be changed because I cannot fit it into MY build"

WoonStruckApr 29, 20162 votes

'XYZ' was changed before because it didn't fit many champs' builds. And it ended up being used by even fewer champions.

Your argument is the exact reason it SHOULD be changed back to a 2k gold, stat-efficient item.

WeatheredApr 29, 20161 votes

Isn't some of the point of build diversity thay it CAN be built on many champions so that people have more options?

And this is the second time you've attacked me for "ruining fun" or because "I cannot fit it into MY build". I neither said nor intended either of those. This isn't a post saying to rework WE, it's a post asking if Riot had already planned to because of the above reasons.

SpecterVonBarenApr 29, 20161 votes

I say cut its damage in half and give it health in its build path and increase the MR shred. Make it a tank item for those that want some attack speed for more autos but are more interested in tankiness and utility than outright damage.

CasterGilgameshApr 30, 20161 votes

Udyr Darius approve

SpecterVonBarenApr 30, 20161 votes

Why would Darius ever get it when he can just build Black Cleaver and then full tank and still murder an entire team while being unkillable?

CasterGilgameshApr 30, 20161 votes

i highly doubt darius is "Unkillable" and plus with the bonus health and mr to keep darius alive he also gets increased attack speed so now he can build up his passive soo much faster its just sounds like it would be very good

facemelter710Apr 30, 20161 votes

35 mr. 25% aa spd.. 300 hp. 35 magc dmg per aa. same mr steal passive 30% tenacity item 3091 mr version of item 3071 could build from item 3211 item 1043 and 1200g.

revised

op?

WeatheredApr 30, 20161 votes

The one you described is giving five different stats and two passives. Maybe if you got rid of the tenacity and kept the magic damage at 35.

Meeks011Apr 30, 20161 votes

It's great on AP Gnar.

RebonackApr 30, 20161 votes

I can see three routes to take on Wit's

Turn it into a high-end OnHit item. As in really high end + + some new item that builds out of Cloth and Null. Make it steal BOTH armor and magic resist so that it's a more widely appealing Bruiser item.
Turn it into a component item ( + ) without the MR stealing passive and give it two upgrade paths, one into Dervish Blade and the other into a magic damage version of Bloodrazor.
Make a new component item ( + ) that deals 30 (ish) magic damage on every third consecutive hit against enemy units. Then use that as the foundation for a class of magic damage OnHit items that build out of this new item, Recurve, and a third item. Wit's for example, would build from the new item, Recurve, and a Negatron Cloak.

AlienPrimateMay 1, 20161 votes

A champion I like Wits end on is Rammus . The attack speed scales well with his passive because late game he typically has 200-300 AD and he does a lot of magic damage between thornmail, sunfire, w, and ult.