Opinions on PBE nerfs for Akali, Irelia and LeBlanc?

BeatzBoyFTW·Nov 28, 2018·32 votes·18,095 views

** Twilight Shroud (W)**

Base duration lowered from 5/5.5/6/6.5/7 to 4/4.5/5/5.5/6
Max duration lowered from 8/8.5/9/9.5/10 to 6/6.5/7/7.5/8

** Defiant Dance (W) **

cooldown increased from 16/15/14/13/12 to 20/18/16/14/12
incoming damage reduction lowered from 50% to 40%
no longer grants a stack of Ionian Fervor (updated)

Distortion (W) cooldown increased from 14/13/12/11/10 to 18/16/14/12/10

Thoughts on these? These aren't straight damage nerfs like most of us expected, but these do address directly at the nuisance they pose:

Forced to use her W timely & wisely instead of spamming willy-nilly. Dives are now more punishable should she chose to dove at any dangerous moment. Will be forced to cs more safely for a longer period of time.

113 Comments

Noor SakataNov 28, 201839 votes

The Akali nerf is ok Irelia nerf is ok , it won't solve the main issue of why she is oppressive , but I'll take it

About the Aatrox and LB nerfs , they are just memes lol , the Camil nerf as well The LB nerf ? she maxes W anyway , the nerf means nothing later , it might made her 4/3 seconds late on doing her trades , but that doesn't stop her from 1 shooting at early

FridgeDNov 28, 20182 votes

oppressive? in which elo is irelia oppressive? she seems to be banned or a free win from bronze to diamond.

akali is even worse, her winrate is just ... lol. nerfing a 47% winrate champ ...

Noor SakataNov 28, 20189 votes

Win rates mean nothing Both champions are very strong in High Elo and freelo in lower elos and Got both strong Early and Late , Akali is an assassin yet she never falls in late game because of her shroud , Hell she is even stronger in late game Irelia as well

FridgeDNov 28, 20182 votes

"Both champions are very strong in High Elo and freelo in lower elos"

pls go on a stat site and check for yourself. akali in low elo under 47% winrate in low elo. but ofc crybaby boards on duty. what matters to you when it isnt winrate in high elo or low elo? what shows that a champion in "strong"? the fact that in beats you in lane??? you know that free elo is a synonym for high winrate?!

no wonder riot doesnt care for gameplay boards! so much bs and mimimi.

aezensNov 29, 20181 votes

I think if I couldn´t practice my champions because of a ~80% banrate I´d suck whit them as well. Winrate is only valuable within a certain context and sample size. Also statistics show she has decent winrate above above 50 games played (if you are somehow able to play her this much).

Yura May ZingNov 28, 201828 votes

Can we talk about the Leblanc chain range though? You can't even flash out of it sometimes.... Also the akali nerfs are laughable...

RagnaveilNov 28, 20189 votes

Not really, the duration nerfs are pretty strong imo. Less time she can be freely trading on someone or hiding from enemies.

Them not touching the chains is just...ugh.

Mokuto BunshiNov 29, 20181 votes

I second this reply.

RagnaveilNov 29, 20181 votes

Thanks.

Boo Koo GodNov 28, 20182 votes

Leblanc chain range I agree with needs a change but the akali nerf will be pretty big.

boricCentaur1Nov 28, 201823 votes

Leblanc needs a delay on her w its just not fun to play vs the way it is now.

The Great DuckNov 28, 20183 votes

{quoted}

needs a delay on her w its just not fun to play vs the way it is now.

The length of her chains' cc need to be cut in half so you don't need two summoner 4 to escape.

PercentagesNov 28, 20181 votes

You know the chain goes in a straight line so literally any type of side stepping....

ArfBarkBoofNov 28, 20181 votes

A good player will know how to path a skill shot with regularity.

PercentagesNov 28, 20183 votes

And another player of similar skill will click 2 steps to the side for a dodge... it's a SKILL shot after all, not a point and click.

AhrisNov 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

needs a delay on her w its just not fun to play vs the way it is now.

I dont think any champ is fun to play against except for like Ahri.

SSW TalonNov 28, 20182 votes

Ahri isn't fun to play vs for everyone lol

AhrisNov 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=SSW Talon,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZjqATvyb,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2018-11-28T20:54:57.687+0000)

Ahri isn't fun to play vs for everyone lol

Idk her kit has a bunch of counterplay and playing against her is like fighting a boss in a video game~~~~

SSW TalonNov 29, 20181 votes

A competent Ahri is annoying for quite a lot of champs, especially in her current state where she has few losing matchups

AhrisNov 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=SSW Talon,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZjqATvyb,comment-id=00050001000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-29T02:33:18.167+0000)

A competent Ahri is annoying for quite a lot of champs, especially in her current state where she has few losing matchups

But her competent can be outplayed. You dont need to even itemize to beat ahri.

If you can dodge her spells then there is nothing she can do. If she is good, build mr or banshee or anything like qss, then her whole kit is denied.

Ahri is super easy to beat as any champ, and even if she is good, it doesnt matter when items already counter her hard

SSW TalonDec 1, 20181 votes

Yea just dodge everything, why not. It's not like autoing with champs mini stuns you and that is precisely when a good Ahri will charm you.

Your bias is showing. If you dodge Talon W he can't do anything, if you dodge Zed Q he can't do anything. If they're good, build armour, zhonya or any other armour item and their one shot/kit is denied

They're super easy to beat as many champs, too. And items already hard counter them, too.

Noticing a pattern? Almost everything has some form of counter. Of course Ahri won't be the exception and yes she has counterplay... But that doesn't make her fun for everyone to play vs because well, that just isn't true.

AhrisDec 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=SSW Talon,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZjqATvyb,comment-id=0005000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-01T01:05:25.541+0000)

Yea just dodge everything, why not. It's not like autoing with champs mini stuns you and that is precisely when a good Ahri will charm you.

Your bias is showing. If you dodge Talon W he can't do anything, if you dodge Zed Q he can't do anything. If they're good, build armour, zhonya or any other armour item and their one shot/kit is denied

They're super easy to beat as many champs, too. And items already hard counter them, too.

Noticing a pattern? Almost everything has some form of counter. Of course Ahri won't be the exception and yes she has counterplay... But that doesn't make her fun for everyone to play vs because well, that just isn't true.

If you dodge Talon's W, he still does a lot of damage with his Q, R, and his basic attacks alone does a lot of damage.

If you dodge Zed's Shurkien, his passive, autos, R, E alone does a lot of damage.

Build Zhonya's and that is the only way to do anything against them. Against Ahri, they can side step, and they can also take QSS, much more counterplay while having overall easier time bursting.

Ahri loses WITHOUT EVEN ITEMS. Side steps. And Zed's Q and Talon's W goes through minions and they arent reliant on it to be viable.

Ahri has much more counterplay then the rest.

You bias is showing.

SSW TalonDec 2, 20181 votes

Yes, dodge the primary ability of Zed/Talon then get in range for them to gap close onto you. Sounds good. If you avoid Talon or Zed W or Q respectively and you still die to them, you fucked up as hard as someone who didn't get hit by Ahri charm and still died.

So? Ahri Q goes through minions too and doesn't have damage dropoff like Zed Q, Zed has to poke with Q to actually kill someone unless he is like 20/0, Talon needs to hit W pre six to even dream of being able to evenly trade. Ahri has to hit charm to chunk in lane. But all of these champs if they get stupidly ahead can miss their primary skill/setup and still kill. If they aren't stupidly ahead? None of them will kill if they miss their primary skill.

Zed has as much counterplay as Ahri, Talon probably doesn't because he is nowhere near as flexible as Ahri is. Also Ahri isn't the single most counter-playable mid in the entire game, but she is up there I won't argue with that. Oh and Zed is harder to burst with than Ahri because so much of his power lies in hitting multiple Qs, which you can side step.

Talon/Zed also lose without even items because that's how assassins function. Go figure.

My bias isn't showing, I don't have a bias against Ahri she is one of my favourite champs to play as. This still doesn't make her fun for everyone to play vs lmfao.

AhrisDec 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=SSW Talon,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZjqATvyb,comment-id=000500010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-02T17:36:25.175+0000)

Yes, dodge the primary ability of Zed/Talon then get in range for them to gap close onto you. Sounds good. If you avoid Talon or Zed W or Q respectively and you still die to them, you fucked up as hard as someone who didn't get hit by Ahri charm and still died.

So? Ahri Q goes through minions too and doesn't have damage dropoff like Zed Q, Zed has to poke with Q to actually kill someone unless he is like 20/0, Talon needs to hit W pre six to even dream of being able to evenly trade. Ahri has to hit charm to chunk in lane. But all of these champs if they get stupidly ahead can miss their primary skill/setup and still kill. If they aren't stupidly ahead? None of them will kill if they miss their primary skill.

Zed has as much counterplay as Ahri, Talon probably doesn't because he is nowhere near as flexible as Ahri is. Also Ahri isn't the single most counter-playable mid in the entire game, but she is up there I won't argue with that. Oh and Zed is harder to burst with than Ahri because so much of his power lies in hitting multiple Qs, which you can side step.

Talon/Zed also lose without even items because that's how assassins function. Go figure.

My bias isn't showing, I don't have a bias against Ahri she is one of my favourite champs to play as. This still doesn't make her fun for everyone to play vs lmfao.

Zed does plenty of damage with his targetted abilities just like Syndra killing her targets while missing an ability or two.

Oncr Zed is fed, his autos alone can do a ton of damage while ahri still needs to land charm to burst. If she misses, she will most likely lose any trades that follow.

Pre 6 talon needs to land W, but by landing it he will most likely be able to burst his target.

Once he is fed, he can burst even harder, without even landing his w.

Ahri cannot kill if she misses charm no matter how ahead she is.

Zed and talon can kill someone without landing w for talon or q as zed when they are ahead.

Against zed and talon, you are forced to build zhonyas because of how much damage they do without being too fed.

Zed's power is mostly on his autos because of duskblade and ultimate combo doing a ton.

What do you mean by talon not being as flexible as ahri? In terms of what? Talon can roam better than she and has more mobility than she and also has a quite strong laning phase and constant kill pressure because of their extreme damage output not relying on a difficult to land skill shot.

SSW TalonDec 2, 20181 votes

This is a revolving door, I said that Ahri isn't fun to play vs for everyone and I'm not wrong. Not everyone likes playing vs Ahri just like not everyone likes playing vs Talon, Zed or anyone else for that matter. Personally, I don't mind her much.

Zed has one targetted ability which is his ult.

Yes of course Zeds autos hurt but you're missing the part where if you let Zed get into melee range of you without so much as ccing him a single time or trying to use an escape, you made a huge mistake. As Ahri you can either charm when he swaps to W and R away or you can charm as he materialises from R and you can R away or sometimes you can even turn on him.

Yea, however Talons return W isn't that hard to avoid so he is rewarded for landing it, seems fair enough.

Correct, once Talon is fed he can just flower combo people extremely reliably (W1 Q R mid Q leap and the sped up auto that happens after Q = bleed proc and usually a kill)

I've seen Ahri kill with just her targetted skills + Q and that's the sort of fed we're talking about for Zed to just kill with R and autos, but Talon is a different story as his quickest combo should execute squishies reliably as long as you don't cc him out of his Q damage.

And against Ahri you are forced to build mercs, QSS or Hexdrinker as everyone is human and will make the mistake of getting hit by charm, also she just really hurts, as she should.

Zeds power budget is in Q and R.

Talon is more binary, he roams well and kills really hard but he has no cc outside of W return slow and he relies on skirmishing and splitting/picking later on. I respect Ahri relies pretty heavily on picking later on but her poke is better than his and whilst she cannot flank the backline as easily, she is still fully capable of it. However, her capability to get lane priority in terms of shoving/wave manipulation is as good as if not better than his. Coincidentally she is really good vs Talon atm in my experience.

He also has more bad matchups. I'd much rather be an Ahri main than Talon main rn but she isn't my strongest suit currently haha He only has more mobility near walls so it doesn't apply to lane, anyone with a hard cc can cc Talon out of his Q damage + the bleed stack (yes, Ahri charm can do this as well). Talon W snapback is pretty hard to land but not as hard as charm I concede that point.

Thanks for continuing to engage in this discussion by the way, sorry for calling you bias.

TusutakiNov 28, 201815 votes

Its a whole lot of nothing. Again hitting everything but the actual issue.

Akali can still damage champs with almost no repercussions under the shroud due to her absurd short timeframe after attacking.

Irelia still does what she does with no changes to her efficiency. She still has her immense sustain that is combined with her waveclear.

Leblanc is probably impacted the most before level 7. At lvl7 and getting the needed items it becomes redundant.

Tenshi912Nov 28, 20186 votes

To be fair, this is in line with Riot’s general balancing paradigms. Riot believes (and the win rates of those champs seem to back Riot up on this) that these three champs aren’t necessarily overpowered so much as incredibly obnoxious to deal with. As such, Riot’s chosen to nerf their survivability and safety while keeping the mechanics that make them good (Akali and Leblanc’s burst, Irelia’s mobility) untouched. Essentially, the problem is not that the champs are too strong, but rather that the champs don’t have enough windows of vulnerability to exploit.

EGirlMidMainNov 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Its a whole lot of nothing. Again hitting everything but the actual issue.

Akali can still damage champs with almost no repercussions under the shroud due to her absurd short timeframe after attacking.

Irelia still does what she does with no changes to her efficiency. She still has her immense sustain that is combined with her waveclear.

Leblanc is probably impacted the most before level 7. At lvl7 and getting the needed items it becomes redundant.

After Akali's w wears out you have 21 seconds to punish her with almost no repercussions.

d0riyahNov 28, 20188 votes

Why are we not talking about how Riot can't seem to handle Viktor? literally all they need to do is reduce the damage on every ability he has, and then increase the ap scaling of them. including the q shield. that's probably the most toxic part of his kit, but they aren't touching it at all.

Baa WoofNov 28, 20185 votes

so they will still oneshot, I guess? I was really hoping for some dmg reduction as well....

nelogisNov 28, 20184 votes

Twilight Shroud (W)

Base duration lowered from 5/5.5/6/6.5/7 to 4/4.5/5/5.5/6

Max duration lowered from 8/8.5/9/9.5/10 to 6/6.5/7/7.5/8

Still going to be permabanned, just like the last nerfs this doesn't address in the slightest the problems Akali has

DuskDaUmbreonNov 28, 20183 votes

Akali - Seems a bit unnecessary imo, but let's be honest - only higher tier players are using it half-decently anyways, and that's where she's strongest.

Irelia - Again, not sure it's necessary. Just a cooldown increase should have been fine imo, but it's not too huge a nerf, probably.

LeBlanc - A good nerf (as her W just has way too short a cooldown for its power - it's higher in power than Zed's W with a much shorter cooldown), but still misses the point of her E tether being way too long. Would like to see nerfs to E range and tether range and nerfs to R cooldown if she's still too strong after.

Thanks for posting these, by the way. Saved me the trouble of looking them up myself.

OneMustFallNov 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Akali - Seems a bit unnecessary imo, but let's be honest - only higher tier players are using it half-decently anyways, and that's where she's strongest.

Irelia - Again, not sure it's necessary. Just a cooldown increase should have been fine imo, but it's not too huge a nerf, probably.

LeBlanc - A good nerf (as her W just has way too short a cooldown for its power - it's higher in power than Zed's W with a much shorter cooldown), but still misses the point of her E tether being way too long. Would like to see nerfs to E range and tether range and nerfs to R cooldown if she's still too strong after.

Thanks for posting these, by the way. Saved me the trouble of looking them up myself.

Sucks I have to hit the Show button to see decent comments on the boards cause of a bunch of downvoting goons but yeah pretty much echoed my thoughts here. Definitely don't see why Akali got nerfs but I get Irelia and LB. I think Riot went the right way with going after CDs instead of damage here.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 29, 20181 votes

Yeah. That's what happens when you say a ~48% winrate champion doesn't need nerfs. Oh well.

Frontline FuryNov 28, 20183 votes

I'm more worried about the lack of Kayn / Dark harvest changes, really. The only real impacts this will have is on very high level play, except for Leblanc which will hit everyone.

BeatzBoyFTWNov 28, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZjqATvyb,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-28T12:30:20.085+0000)

I'm more worried about the lack of Kayn / Dark harvest changes, really. The only real impacts this will have is on very high level play, except for Leblanc which will hit everyone.

Dark Harvest (Domination Keystone)

Damage lowered from 40-80 to 20-60

Also in PBE.

DoktorKaiserNov 28, 20183 votes

Not a single DAMAGE nerf, the problem with these champions is their BURST DAMAGE while also having incredible mobility/sustain which has been hit though, but seriously the fact that LeBlanc will wait 3 seconds more to one shot me won't help me one bit, the fact that Irelia will dash 58 times on me and destroy me even if I am full armor won't be solved with her having 10% less damage reduction, Akali nerf is a bit harder but also won't solve her broken ultimate and lane sustain/harass playstyle.

ankoanko19Nov 28, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Not a single DAMAGE nerf, the problem with these champions is their BURST DAMAGE while also having incredible mobility/sustain which has been hit though, but seriously the fact that LeBlanc will wait 3 seconds more to one shot me won't help me one bit, the fact that Irelia will dash 58 times on me and destroy me even if I am full armor won't be solved with her having 10% less damage reduction, Akali nerf is a bit harder but also won't solve her broken ultimate and lane sustain/harass playstyle.

What? An assassin... ASSASSINATING PEOPLE?! Irelia is an issue because her kit is oppressive mid. At least now she wont dash as much because youll be forced to max W 2nd again.

Exin0Nov 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

What? An assassin... ASSASSINATING PEOPLE?! Irelia is an issue because her kit is oppressive mid. At least now she wont dash as much because youll be forced to max W 2nd again.

thing is how. working from "shadows" and pick carefully their targets or just run down the lane straight on you and murder everything in the path? their survivability and lack of counterplay make them overbearing and top of that many champions despite of their class just become assassins with thier mobility and dmg output

ankoanko19Nov 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

thing is how. working from "shadows" and pick carefully their targets or just run down the lane straight on you and murder everything in the path? their survivability and lack of counterplay make them overbearing and top of that many champions despite of their class just become assassins with thier mobility and dmg output

Plenty of counterplay to assassins. Just dont feed. Build early resistances and ping MIA to your team if he/she roams. Its really that simple. Why else would only 4 assassins be meta right now?

Exin0Nov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Plenty of counterplay to assassins. Just dont feed. Build early resistances and ping MIA to your team if he/she roams. Its really that simple. Why else would only 4 assassins be meta right now?

4 assassins by class maybe but there are others champs no different from assassins (jax, lee, rengar, etc. ) they have so much dmg and jumps and mobility they become just beefier assassins. from player precepcion its same if talon pop you under second or jax or rengar...

ankoanko19Nov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

4 assassins by class maybe but there are others champs no different from assassins (jax, lee, rengar, etc. ) they have so much dmg and jumps and mobility they become just beefier assassins. from player precepcion its same if talon pop you under second or jax or rengar...

Well Rengar is an assassin, he's one of the 4. And Jax & Lee can only do the same dmg the other assassins do if they build full dmg themselves. At that point they just explode and dont have reliable escapes like Katarina, LB, Zed etc would've.

Exin0Dec 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well Rengar is an assassin, he's one of the 4. And Jax & Lee can only do the same dmg the other assassins do if they build full dmg themselves. At that point they just explode and dont have reliable escapes like Katarina, LB, Zed etc would've.

rengar is listed as fighter/diver not assassin but he act like one. lee and jax and other go full dmg with ocasional GA and they can abuse HP/DMG items. yes i give you that rengar dont have reliable escape he don even need one coz anything he touch just explode in fraction of second, lee have escapes he just need to be liitle smart still he act like assassin nevertheless in your opinion what is healthy assassin kit because now the can easily weaveclear, have supreme mobility to maximaze roaming, they do have escapes like talon or kayn or LB (maybe there are some not super reliable escapes on some champs but certenaly not bad), have dmg to esily delete everything short of tanks, gap close abilities and not particulary hard lane phase most of them just need to not hard lose until level 6 so what is offset? is only squishiness (they can go for BC or other hp item) if so its not enough. sorry for english :D

ChaosThiefNov 28, 20182 votes

I'm saying the Akali nerf is going to drop the winrate, but it won't reduce frustration for people fighting her, so she'll remain one of the highest banned.

They need to hit her shroud re-entry time before people stop complaining, which they likely won't do for a while until it becomes apparent that the re-entry time is a problem (which won't for a while now.)

If anything I'd like them to push some of the energy on cast from W into her passive, but I'm not sure how much good that would actually do.

Tenshi912Nov 28, 20184 votes

Honestly, a part of me appreciates that shroud is one of the only defensive abilities in the game that rewards the opponent for having aoe and skill shot abilities instead of targeted abilities.
Personal opinions aside, while I agree that increasing re-entry time into shroud would be a really nice change to make one-on-ones with her less obnoxious for most champions, it would also make it exponentially harder for her to survive and do her job in mid-to-late game team fights. In a world of dusk blades and storm razors, a second is all you really need to nuke someone down, and it would probably cripple her viability in pro-play.

mack9112Nov 28, 20182 votes

Great nerfs for these champs especially considering they will find the meta more difficult as the added durability in lane will make there play patterns far more difficult to get ahead with.

Neptunia xoxoNov 29, 20181 votes

Still not nerfing what really needs to be nerfed when it comes to Irelia and LB. For example Irelia passive and Q mark and LB chain range / range needed to break the tether. Akali honestly was just a bad design to begin with like even if you nerf her shroud or touch her damage it just leaves her being garbage because her design has so many flaws when it comes to balance and it's the same thing with Irelia...

slit my neck irlNov 29, 20181 votes

Akali is a good nerf, LB is decent but not what they should nerf (jfc riot, Royal literally explained to yall on twitter how to make her balanced), and irelia will still be cancerbroken.

Beacon AcademyNov 29, 20181 votes

As per tradition, Rito didn't address the big reasons why people hate playing against those champions...

True Stealth

Infinite Dashes

Chain Tether

BeatzBoyFTWNov 30, 20181 votes

Irelia's got a new update on her nerf. Apparently she can't stack up her passive faster than usual now, except the 4 Q method.