I feel bad for Zed mains

Jivewolf·Jul 29, 2017·89 votes·6,121 views

As a former adc main I usually didn't pity Zed mains despite him often being weak in the meta. But when a full tank, zero damage outbursts a full damage, no defensive item , I can't help myself but to feel bad for them. But hay I'm no professional balancer like meddler. Apparently chogath is a healthy, fair champ and it's Shyvana the champ that has been dead for the last 50 years that got a little buff that is overpowered and should be nerfed not the full tank that 1 shots ANYONE. Legit all I see in my elo (diamond) are cinderhulk, stone plate, locket, abusers. Warwick can solo drag level three while Shyvana needs at least a smite upgrade because her passive that is meant to destroy drags sucks. I just sometimes don't understand how people can defend chogath at this stage, especially meddler :( sorry I got a little tilted when my Zed couldn't burst down the enemy adc and the cho activated RG and 1 shot me xd

85 Comments

Dark NephthysJul 30, 201732 votes

I do feel a little bad for Zed but I honestly feel really bad for Karthus . Karthus has way to much counter play for his ultimate, the most counter play anyone ever has on their ultimate and that is basically a large portion and entire theme of his kit (well that and his passive). Just watch the Dignitas Vs Immortals game, and you'll see why...

But yea I really dont know what Riot is thinking... Shyvana "is potentially to strong" Really? Are you even playing League right now Riot? She has been terrible ever since that mini rework and even with these changes, her clear speed isn't even all that great and still takes a lot out of her. Shyvana shouldn't be taking more damage and slower at jungle clear than ganking junglers, because she has nothing to offer besides clearing camps and fighting the enemy jungler/counter-jungle since her ganks are really bad.

JivewolfJul 30, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zg88NLZG,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-07-30T00:24:37.460+0000)

I do feel a little bad for but I honestly feel really bad for . Karthus has way to much counter play for his ultimate, the most counter play anyone ever has on their ultimate and that is basically a large portion and entire theme of his kit (well that and his passive). Just watch the Dignitas Vs Immortals game, and you'll see why...

But yea I really dont know what Riot is thinking... "is potentially to strong" Really? Are you even playing League right now Riot? She has been terrible ever since that mini rework and even with these changes, her clear speed isn't even all that great and still takes a lot out of her. Shyvana shouldn't be taking more damage and slower at jungle clear than ganking junglers, because she has nothing to offer besides clearing camps and fighting the enemy jungler/counter-jungle since her ganks are really bad.

I understand and I totally agree with you. Meddler gave her a small base armor upgrade and more damage to her e and meddler thinks she's overpowered!? Like legit thats my point she really isn't that good when you compare her to cinderhulk, stoneplate, locket junglers and meddler already wants to nerf her. Ridiculous...

Blackstone01Jul 30, 201713 votes

Karthus is either forgotten about or somebody in the balance department every few months thinks of new ways to fuck him over. Landing single target Qs? Well Randuin's omen is gonna reduce that since it's a crit. Going in with E popped? Don't worry about it Adaptive Helm counters that. Finally using that like 150 second CD ult? Banshee's Veil and Edge of Night blocks it. See a pick up in play rate? Let's nerf his wall slow.

Pommel KnightJul 30, 20173 votes

Well same fir Fizz and Anivia really.

Dark NephthysJul 30, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Karthus is either forgotten about or somebody in the balance department every few months thinks of new ways to fuck him over. Landing single target Qs? Well Randuin's omen is gonna reduce that since it's a crit. Going in with E popped? Don't worry about it Adaptive Helm counters that. Finally using that like 150 second CD ult? Banshee's Veil and Edge of Night blocks it. See a pick up in play rate? Let's nerf his wall slow.

Yea when you really look at all the counters to Karthus 's ultimate...

Bard Janna Karma Kayle Kindred Lulu Lux Morgana Orianna Shen Sona Soraka TahmKench Zilean Taric summoner 21 summoner 7 item 3102 item 3814 item 3026 item 3190 item 3156 item 3107 item 3040 item 3157

That wasn't even all of them either, though some of them are more like soft counters but some of these are really hard counters like Soraka and Locket. Then you would have to include all champions that can just self avoid his ultimate with invulnerabilities, spell shields or untargetable like.,

Fizz Lissandra Malzahar Nocturne Sivir Tryndamere Vladimir

Arcade CookieAug 9, 20171 votes

Don't forget MasterYi

NineTailedMysticJul 30, 20171 votes

Well Randuin's omen is gonna reduce that since it's a crit.

Pretty sure that was fixed along with Anivia E being reduced like last season.

SqueyJul 30, 20174 votes

shyvs clear speed is still super good, counter jungling is also fine and her damage is really high. She just isnt meta because her ult is very lack luster and everything she does can be dont better by someone else.

Mike KachowskiJul 30, 20171 votes

If you look at winrates however, Karthus actually has a really high one

TotalJerkJul 31, 20171 votes

Shyvanna's stats spiked massively after that buff. She has a 53% winrate now.

NarzalJul 29, 201717 votes

Don't worry, they'll be working on cho gath interaction with that abuse, maybe in the next 3 patches they will find out what to do hmm... and then you can go back to hating zed...until then Chogath nom nom freelo yum.

Dominick DestineJul 30, 201717 votes

Zed

Manaless Huge, nearly unparalleled mobility Long range, very easy poke Multiple escape mechanisms

Does Cho Gath have any of these? nope. Champions are not meant to be the same; Cho Gath has his weaknesses, so does Zed.

Handin Out NapsJul 30, 20173 votes

Whoa did you just say Zed has weaknesses, holy shit didn't think I'd see the day. On a side note what do you think about Yasuo and Lee? cx

LexyyJul 29, 201714 votes

There is no such thing as feeling bad for zed mains. Karma is a b*tch.

341123545652Jul 29, 201716 votes

[deleted]

NineTailedMysticJul 29, 201718 votes

but you are a silver 3 support main , who plays karma, morgana, and ahri? lots of talent here. Didnt riot have to shift Ahri's damage from her w into her E like a month ago cause she was literally too easy to play? Like not even a full scale "nerf" just a shift because statistically she was so easy with a 20% pickrate people were winning games 54.5% of the time with less than 50 games played on her.

https://media.giphy.com/media/dEdmW17JnZhiU/giphy.gif?noredirect

CatastropJul 30, 20179 votes

{quoted}

https://media.giphy.com/media/dEdmW17JnZhiU/giphy.gif?noredirect

Literally my reaction too, I don't particularly like Ahri but even I couldn't take that seriously.

BańgJul 30, 20173 votes

thats because what he said was completely true and you dont seem to understand how the game works.

same for the ahri main complaining about zed being annoying :)

go ahead and gank a bad ahri after 6..

oh wait. x D

NineTailedMysticJul 30, 20177 votes

Easier than ganking a Riven. Cause, you know, Ahri is actually vulnerable without her R.

AnhartaminJul 30, 20174 votes

[deleted]

NineTailedMysticJul 30, 201725 votes

50 x 0 is still 0 :^)

Zëd LęppelinJul 31, 20173 votes

BańgJul 31, 20171 votes

except most ahris save it for ganks and dont waste it like idiots.

lets keep denying that and save our waifu for more use.

NineTailedMysticJul 31, 20172 votes

An Ahri that doesn't use her R offensively at all is a bad Ahri, and one who won't have kill pressure on her laner.

BańgJul 31, 20171 votes

the ahris i play with play to scale.

they dont do shit in laning but harass and IF the enemy laner is bad they will abuse it.

they save their ults for ganks and the guarantee of a free kill.

her cooldown on ulti isnt that long as well.

NineTailedMysticJul 31, 20171 votes

Her R CD is fairly standard at 110/95/80.

BańgJul 31, 20171 votes

with cdr being so easy to cap now with ap/ad champs its not a problem to waste ulti and get it back soon

FairyDollJul 29, 201710 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Damage Haha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zg88NLZG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-07-29T21:23:58.185+0000)

but you are a silver 3 support main , who plays karma, morgana, and ahri? lots of talent here. Didnt riot have to shift Ahri's damage from her w into her E like a month ago cause she was literally too easy to play? Like not even a full scale "nerf" just a shift because statistically she was so easy with a 20% pickrate people were winning games 54.5% of the time with less than 50 games played on her. Same deal happened to Karma.

No such thing as feeling bad for Karma/Ahri mains i guess.

Morons aside tho, i dont really feel bad for zed mains cause the champion is in a fairly strong spot and the people who play him well probably wont fail assassinations that often with the new duskblade i feel

What does that have to do with anything he just said?

You're an unranked who just plays arams. Bet you know balance real well :^)

BØLTJul 29, 20173 votes

LOL these elitist comment chains! ARAM accounts are the most fun though, believe me. Maybe he is like me and doesn't use the older/ranked account? I have no desire to play ranked anymore, and Judgement Kayle is pretty fugly

DanjengJul 30, 20177 votes

Pointing out the rank (or unrankedness) of someone, who also did the same thing to another person, makes you no better. It only leads to an endless "your rank sucks" loop. Be better than that.

MogarlJul 30, 20177 votes

I hope they don't nerf Cho around Stoneplate, and make it necessary for him to be useful. That would suck. I would rather they remove the health scaling and give him stack scaling on it like his E has.

GrReaper96Jul 30, 20175 votes

Or just remove the true damage intercation of stoneplate. Thats all

ForeverLaxxJul 30, 20172 votes

This is a problem of how True Damage works on the base coding level. They'd have to go back and rework it from the ground up, and Riot won't do that.

ForeverLaxxJul 30, 20171 votes

Oh, don't worry. They'll nerf Cho because of Stoneplate, then nerf Stoneplate later without compensating Cho for it. Just like every other champion that's gotten nerfed because of specific item interactions.

SwiftKitten88Jul 30, 20176 votes

this thread literally has nothing to do with Zed ... Chogath ulti outburst anything but a freaking Draven crit..

Ionian VulpixJul 30, 20175 votes

They'll receive no sympathy from me.

windappleJul 30, 20173 votes

I know you main ahri but that's no reason to be heartless. Zed mains have feelings too!

BØLTJul 29, 20174 votes

He shouldn't even have hp scaling on his R imo. Wellllll I really don't want to say its time to give up complaining about cho BUT Meddler did say this:

{quoted}

Morning all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

7.15 follow ups

Nasus - Seems reasonable so far. He's scary sometimes, but juggernauts should have scary moments when they're in range to melee you.

Urgot - Also looking about right, at least initially. Jungle Urgot's struggling pretty hard, but that's as expected, solo lane Urgot seems to be performing fairly well.

Shyvana - Potentially too strong, no immediate plans for changes yet though, still watching.

Cho - Nerfs hit him meaningfully, may or may not still be out of line in jungle however. It's good to see Cho as a more functional champion (it's been a while), suspect we'll have to do some more work on him however soon or moderately soon.

Cho and Stoneplate

Speaking of Cho, figured it would be good to talk a bit about him and Stoneplate. We're very much aware there are some strong opinions about Cho and Stoneplate out there and it's a topic with a range of opinions on it internally too. We talked about that particular interaction a lot before launching Stoneplate.

Feast's a really high true damage spell, capable of getting to around 1000 damage late game on a tank build, with Stoneplate pushing that up a few hundred more assuming a normal number of Feast stacks. That's more true damage than we'd normally be happy seeing from a champ in a single ability. Cho's got some pretty pronounced weaknesses however, in particular his long cast times, lack of mobility and limited reliability. Between those and the need to build Stoneplate, be around 3+ enemy champs and get into Feast range we concluded it was appropriate to allow the Cho/Stoneplate interaction to exist. **So far that's still our take on it at present too. **

Having said that completely agree it can definitely feel really rough being on the receiving end sometimes and Stoneplate's still pretty high on our watch list. The ability to use strong combos with it allow some pretty interesting uses and makes it appealing in a range of different circumstances. So far that seems appropriate, possible we do have to make some changes to Stoneplate and/or other things if the power of those, especially relative to their counterplay, gets out of line, whether that's Stoneplate+Cho, Stoneplate+Locket or something else again. The increased reliability Cho gets off his E slow's also noteworthy, and it's possible that while this was ok with an unreliable Q that the increased target access he's now got might prove too dominant long term.

Dominick DestineJul 30, 20174 votes

Feast's a really high true damage spell, capable of getting to around 1000 damage late game on a tank build, with Stoneplate pushing that up a few hundred more assuming a normal number of Feast stacks. That's more true damage than we'd normally be happy seeing from a champ in a single ability. Cho's got some pretty pronounced weaknesses however, in particular his long cast times, lack of mobility and limited reliability. Between those and the need to build Stoneplate, be around 3+ enemy champs and get into Feast range we concluded it was appropriate to allow the Cho/Stoneplate interaction to exist. So far that's still our take on it at present too.

Nice call Meddler.

I am not being sarcastic, that was a legit good call by Meddler..... Morello is still king !

Rengar Top LaneJul 30, 20173 votes

I don't feel bad because I've seen zed's with full lethality absolutely decimate a group of 3 squishies. On the matter where a cho full damage outbursts, that is a problem. If cho didn't outburst him, but slowly won the fight overtime, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Synnx7Jul 29, 20172 votes

this is the most unbalanced game in this whole world so yeah. get 1 shooted by a choskill with 12k health

BØLTJul 29, 20173 votes

12k?? Run, its Cho'Zilla! The fountain laser might not even kill him fast enough

iDemaciaJul 30, 20172 votes

It doesn't even with only 8k. Tanked it for like 6 seconds a while back so my team could ace the other team one last time :P

Hexs FortuneJul 30, 20172 votes

sorry I got a little tilted when my Zed couldn't burst down the enemy adc and the cho activated RG and 1 shot me xd

Be honest, you don't care about Zed mains. You care about "your zed" failing at his job and getting eaten hehe

subhuman team XDJul 30, 20172 votes

you feel bad for zed but you dont feel bad for rengar mains , cool

windappleJul 30, 20172 votes

I think OP was just using zed as a blanket statement for assassins being less effective at killing squishies than a tank.

hallfroJul 31, 20171 votes

I mean to be fair... Zed has actual delay on his assassinations while Rengar has a mini animation in his Q lol. When it comes to "bursting people with no counterplay" (which is the point of the thread), Rengar is closer to doing that than Zed imo.

As someone who loves assassins though, I feel for Rengar mains!

hotarseJul 31, 20171 votes

Tell me, how much mobility does Cho'Gath have? Yeah? That's what I thought. Besides his ulti, how does Chogath output damage? Yeah... That's what I thought. Maybe you should reconsider your ability to come to decent conclusions because that is seriously lacking.