New Conqueror Changes

Farm With Jayce·Feb 8, 2019·76 votes·65,952 views

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Fwyvizk4OeU/XFzGIiM1ihI/AAAAAAABOqE/f016mSB_mJk0_gJFGhI3s5xkaf8NslSSwCLcBGAs/s1600/conqueror.png

Now they will be getting damage, heal, and true damage. Thoughts on this?

270 Comments

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 201948 votes

seems like its easy to abuse by ranged champions.

they have easier target access than melee champions, which means even with a 3 second timer, they have an easier time to keep the keystone up in a fight than melee champions would, or stack it up off poke before the fight really starts.

the current conqueror is basically shit for ranged champions because they simply cant hold the buff. this new one looks like its useful for ranged and melee, which means ranged will abuse it as usual.

id rather they decreased the effect of the keystone by 40% for ranged champions, than decrease the timer. because the timer isnt much of a restriction for them either way.

Anime FizzFeb 8, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfAY8RZp,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-08T00:46:54.551+0000)

seems like its easy to abuse by ranged champions.

they have easier target access than melee champions, which means even with a 3 second timer, they have an easier time to keep the keystone up in a fight than melee champions would, or stack it up off poke before the fight really starts.

the current conqueror is basically shit for ranged champions because they simply cant hold the buff. this new one looks like its useful for ranged and melee, which means ranged will abuse it as usual.

id rather they decreased the effect of the keystone by 40% for ranged champions, than decrease the timer. because the timer isnt much of a restriction for them either way.

Dude, you need to AA 5 times to fully stack it and losing it all in 3s is trash lol.

I know you probably dont remember, but the old fervor in one of its interations it was nerfed down to 4s stack duration, and when they did that EVERYONE stopped using the rune because it was unuseable (the next patch they buffed it to 6s), i fail to see on how 3s is going to be any better.

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 20199 votes

[{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfAY8RZp,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-02-08T00:56:12.878+0000)

Dude, you need to AA 5 times to fully stack it and losing it all in 3s is trash lol.

I know you probably dont remember, but the old fervor in one of its interations it was nerfed down to 4s stack duration, and when they did that EVERYONE stopped using the rune because it was unuseable (the next patch they buffed it to 6s), i fail to see on how 3s is going to be any better.

5 auto attacks + spells is very quickly achived. the problem i see is how ranged champions get the same value out of the keystone as melee champions.

and despite a 3 second timer being much shorter, ranged champions tend to be able to use mechanics like this much easier than melee champions, since they have an easier time staying in combat due to higher target access.

melee champions only fight all in and stack the rune during during the fight. ranged champions can stack the rune before the fight really starts and then all in their opponent, at which point the timer doesnt matter.

well see how this turns out, but i dont like the idea of giving even just possibly some adc the full effect of this rune. Twitch for example can just use his poison to stay in combat. the 3 second timer makes barely a difference for him.

Malzahar and similar champions might stack it slower, but could stay in combat by using similar damage over time effects.

Singed would just wreck your shit.

Teemo with this rune. this is an absolute no.

Cassiopeia could become a very real problem.

Titanium70Feb 8, 20191 votes

The effect does not wear off when out of combat. It ends 3 secoonds after you last spellcast/aa. Having some sort of DOT ticking does not matter!

Moody PFeb 8, 20196 votes

dots refresh it but don't stack it further

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfAY8RZp,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-08T01:17:14.906+0000)

dots refresh it but don't stack it further

yea, thats a real problem.

the 3 second timer is the only limitation for ranged champions. so the ranged champions who can extend the timer with damage over time effects would be busted with this rune and automatically use it better than melee champions.

Twitch can extend the timer to 9 seconds this way.

as a result, not only could he stack it up easier than melee champions just on ranged poke (he has 9 seconds between auto attacks to get the next stack), but he could also hold it longer while gaining the same value out of it.

and like i said.

Teemo YIKES

i do not want to lane against that.

Chembaron YamadaFeb 8, 20192 votes

Another guy wrote a post clarifying some interactions. It seems that DoTs do not refresh the timer, meaning that Twitch, for example, will not be able to use this rune very efficiently.

Titanium70Feb 8, 20196 votes

They can't be THAT stupid - can they?

Titanium70Feb 8, 20196 votes

And now realize PTA exists. ^^

There might be some rangeds able to use it - but even stuff like Lucian who'd get it stacked fast should be better of with PTA.

The scariest user I can think of right now would be Cassiopeia

Sir SaltarinFeb 8, 201927 votes

The scariest user I can think of right now would be

Fuck that champ

SociaI JusticeFeb 8, 201913 votes

Jayce welcome back to top lane being unplayable by melees

ModCaliCoastReplayFeb 12, 20191 votes

Depends on the melee. Jayce can really struggle against juggernauts with gap closers, particularly Renekton . He's never been a safe pair of hands on the blind and this probably won't change that.

SociaI JusticeFeb 13, 20192 votes

juggernauts with gap closers

the what now, the only juggernaut with a "gap closer" is illaoi who jayce does kind of struggle against but not because of the gap closer. on the other hand he absolutely destroys renekton who is a bruiser.

ModCaliCoastReplayFeb 14, 20191 votes

I think Renekton strongly deserved reclassification as a juggernaut - he very shortly becomes tankier and more lethal up-close than nearly the entire lane - and Illaoi Urgot both have gap closers, Disdain and Harsh Lesson are both gap closers.

I play a fair bit of Jayce and he struggles if jumped on and stunned. It's generally a kill against him if his knockback in melee form is down, in fact.

SociaI JusticeFeb 18, 20192 votes

i mean that might be how the matchup works in low elo but anywhere near competent jayce absolutely destroys renekton

ModCaliCoastReplayFeb 18, 20191 votes

I'd argue that actually means the Renekton isn't competent. Only the first push or two are rough; finish one major armor item and use an empowered stun on Jayce and that should be a kill, a force-out at minimum.

SociaI JusticeFeb 18, 20193 votes

jayce has a 57% wr into rene at plat+ in dia+ its 60%, its very difficult to lose to a rene as a competent jayce.

Z3SleeperFeb 8, 20197 votes

8s sounds disgusting for melee anyway. That's 8 seconds of zoning if you lose out on the trade.

yeah I'd rather it just be 3s across the board and ranged getting half the effects.

The E77Feb 8, 20197 votes

or 13 seconds if its Darius

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 8, 20191 votes

Agreed

From 1 JUSTICE main to another, what are your thoughts on using it on Garen? I'm looking forward to using it on Garen, since hitting with spells will stack it, meaning his E will get max stacks very quickly.

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Romans VI XXIII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfAY8RZp,comment-id=00060003,timestamp=2019-02-08T05:42:48.190+0000)

Agreed

From 1 JUSTICE main to another, what are your thoughts on using it on Garen? I'm looking forward to using it on Garen, since hitting with spells will stack it, meaning his E will get max stacks very quickly.

the way it usually works is that even multi hit spells like garens spin only generate 1 single stack.

garen probably stacks conqueror too slow for him to be useful.

EedatFeb 8, 201934 votes

Harder to proc (max stacks anyway). True damage conversion halved in exchange for a bit of survivabilty in fights. More stats (important to note its also adaptive now) but harder to access them.

Also important, it gets rid of the stagnate "I have my Conqueror's stacked and you don't" back and forth top lane.

I kinda like the changes. Its more like old Fervor now

DuskDaUmbreonFeb 8, 201932 votes

Honestly, much better. Requires actually fighting to get it going.

Just as long as a DoT only counts once, not once per tick. Darius had better not fucking get full Conq stacks from clipping someone with Q.

And the 8s for melee might be a bit much. Maybe 5-6s before dropoff, but they fall off one at a time?

Z3SleeperFeb 8, 20195 votes

Just remember Urgot is gonna stack this thing instantaneously (Q + E + W's 3.0 AS = fully stacked in 1s). Urgot is scary enough even without the ability to use current Conqueror, imagine him with this.

Also Renekton. Maybe Garen if his E counts as multiple procs.

OtterlyLostFeb 8, 20199 votes

I'm not sure how I feel about it being adaptive though... it does mean that Diana could feasibly take it. They dont get the heal or true damage until 5 stacks which feels fairer. Still trash for ranged champions so people like Urgot and Gnar who are also bruisers are still getting the short end of the stick. But no more stacking it up on minions. Its a much more interactive rune

DragonSheaFeb 8, 20199 votes

Remove the true damage but keep the heal.

kingDeDeDariusFeb 8, 20193 votes

Yeah I agree, people don't seem to see just how big the adaptive stats are in their own. A whopping 75 ad or so at max stacks. That's more than old fervor, yet it also gratns 10% true damage conversion AND healing. I like it more because it's more efficient that current conquerors for my main Darius, but it still seems a bit too strong, especially for ranged champs as others have mentioned

KFCeytronFeb 8, 20198 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I agree, people don't seem to see just how big the adaptive stats are in their own. A whopping 75 ad or so at max stacks. That's more than old fervor, yet it also gratns 10% true damage conversion AND healing. I like it more because it's more efficient that current conquerors for my main Darius, but it still seems a bit too strong, especially for ranged champs as others have mentioned

75 adaptive force isn't 75 AD. It's 75 AP, or about 45 AD.

kingDeDeDariusFeb 8, 20192 votes

Are you certain about that? I believe I remember when they released the adaptive force concept, that they explained if our have 10 adaptive force that equals 10 AP or 10 AD. Other people seem to be confirming that below, which would mean it stacks up to 75 ad.

Spicy RiceFeb 8, 20194 votes

Adaptive force is .6 ad and 1.0 ap.

.6 * 75 is 45

IllabetheFeb 8, 20196 votes

Holy Bejeesus. This is a serious problem.

That's actually stronger than the only one, even if it is now adaptive.

For example, that's going to be Ryze core Keystone Rune. Champions who can spam abilities are going to get up to 75 AP off this, and it's going to heal/true damage on top of their already existing domination.

Imagine Cassiopeia spamming with this rune.

No other rune even comes close to this.....

It's literally flipping from being a Bruiser rune to being a mage/spell casting AD rune. Illaoi this is a HUGE buff.

Urgot Huge buff. Zyra Huge buff. It's also legitimate on Evelynn , who gets to cast Q 4 times, E once, etc....

Yup. New meta entirely.

RagnaveilFeb 8, 201912 votes

As much as I would hate to say it, they may need to limit it to melee only. Like, why does everything that Bruisers/Juggernauts want for QoL buffs have to be shared with other classes that might abuse it and use it better than them?

kingDeDeDariusFeb 8, 20194 votes

Ikr, the. It just causes balance nightmares. I think it should be melee only, and that the numbers need to be tuned down a little. Heck, even tanks will want to be taking this over traditional tank runes

RagnaveilFeb 8, 20193 votes

The healing should go too. Its literally spitting in the face of old Aatrox players because its the very concept they deemed old Aatrox as too unhealthy for: Drain tanking.

Bears Dont CareFeb 8, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It's also legitimate on , who gets to cast Q 4 times, E once, etc....

Yup. New meta entirely.

Evelynn won't use it because she has other runes she relies upon and requires. She cannot afford to change her runes even though conqueror would be so good on her. For example, if she gives up sorcery, she gives up gathering storm an absolute focus which provide a constant source of Ap which can be use BEFORE she casts her Q and provides her greater frontloaded damage. If she gives up domination she loses out on +10 magic penetration and OoC Movement speed.

I think you're overestimating how shifting this might be.

Jinzo best cardFeb 8, 20195 votes

DoT Keystone holy shit. Fucking finally.

EedatFeb 8, 20196 votes

How is it a DoT keystone?

Sewer SideFeb 8, 20193 votes

What, auto attacks aren’t DoT?

EedatFeb 8, 20191 votes

Jerry SeinfeIdFeb 8, 20194 votes

Teemo begs to differ.

MonstermushmushFeb 8, 20192 votes

I LOVE IT! A combo of Fervor and Conquerer!

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I LOVE IT! A combo of Fervor and Conquerer!

what champions are you playing?

MonstermushmushFeb 8, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfAY8RZp,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-02-08T01:32:16.485+0000)

what champions are you playing?

Tryndamere

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 201910 votes

{quoted}

then have fun getting dicked on with the keystone by teemo.

general rule of the game is, if you give ranged and melee the same mechanic, then ranged champions tend to abuse the hell out of it against the melee champions its intended for.

Flawless FetusFeb 8, 20191 votes

Which is exactly why so many ranged champs are running conquerer.

Critmaster GarenFeb 8, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=BIended Fetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZfAY8RZp,comment-id=00090000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-08T03:06:04.878+0000)

Which is exactly why so many ranged champs are running conquerer.

the current conqueror cant be maintained by ranged champions more than a few seconds even when they stay in combat, while melee champions can keep it up indefinitely as long as they stay in combat.

this new version doesnt have a limit for melee or ranged champions.

the only difference is, that if youre out of combat with a champion for 3 (ranged) or 8 (melee) seconds, the stacks will fall off.

however ranged champions with damage over time effects can easily extend this duration.

Teemo poison will increase the buff timer to 7 seconds. this means as long as he auto attacks you once every 7 seconds, he can just keep the buff running.

the same problem will occur with other ranged champions with damage over time effects.

it makes it incredibly easy for them to stack the rune just off ranged poke on you, and constantly zone you with a massive ad or ap buff, omnivamp and true damage.

the restriction of a buff timer to 3 seconds isnt nearly enough.

kingDeDeDariusFeb 8, 20195 votes

Apparently it doesn't get refreshed or stacked with dots. Only AAs and spellcasts

kingDeDeDariusFeb 8, 20196 votes

You seem to miss the fact that current conquerors had a fixed limiter in how long a ranged champ can use it before it goes on CD for a while. The new iteration can be refreshed for three seconds INDEFINITELY instead of stopping after four seconds like the current version.

Flawless FetusFeb 8, 20191 votes

I didn't miss anything. The "general rule" is just moot.

LTK KoRoFeb 8, 20195 votes

You missed "if you give ranged and melee the same mechanic" this.

Current conqueror have different mechanic for melees and rangeds. Rangeds can't keep the conqueror up with AAs after stacking. That's a different mechanic.

New conqueror doesn't have any different mechanic for melees and rangeds, and due to that it's going to be much stronger on rangeds rather than melees, just because it's easier to stack stuff with +500 range